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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 18, 2018 19:53:17 GMT
Not to remotely the same extent otherwise those articles would have only been made in 2008 when The Dark Knight came out. YouTube did not exist when Batman Begins came out. It did when The Dark Knight came out, and the many popular parodies and spoofs turned it into a bigger thing. That video wasn't about making fun of the Joker p, it was about mocking the Batman voice. The movie has 20 negative reviews listed on Rotten Tomatoes and if it wasn't criticised then it wouldn't have a 8.6 average rating, it'd be a 10. Youtube was around in 2005, and you're just proving how untouchable people felt Joker was. No one was willing to point out the Nolan Joker's flaws or make fun of him. And I can bet you that those critics probably got a heavy counter-attack for not giving it a 10/10.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 18, 2018 19:53:39 GMT
I do. That film didn't have a full performance from Ledger. I don't recall Michael Shannon being in Revolutionary Road for very long and yet you would give him an Oscar. Judy Dench was in Shakespeare in Love for 8 minutes and she won an Academy Award. ![](https://s26.postimg.org/m8f14k0ih/yes.gif) Yeah, but neither were as lazily written as Nolan Joker.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 18, 2018 19:58:28 GMT
If it did, it wasn’t in any notable capacity. The Batman voice in BB wasn’t even that pronounced. The only time he actually “growled” was when he interrogated Flass. Speaking of interrogation: link. The boats weren’t secondary. They were a major part of his plan. They may not have been the only part of his plan, but he was still pretty frustrated and surprised when it didn’t work out. As for Batman taking the fall for Dent, that was the most viable way of covering up what Dent did. Contrary to what some might think, blaming the Joker would’ve raised a ton of questions. It was still notable, enough to get some chuckles. So when it got worse in TDK they felt okay making fun of it because it wasn't a swipe against something TDK introduced. Everything was really about Dent first and foremost. The boats were a secondary thing (and like I said, him being able to get them on the boats and rig the boats was just more omnipotence lazy writing) which is why he still felt victorious in the end. They don't need to blame Joker, they just need to say Dent was left brain damaged and was dying from his injuries and cover up the deaths. It didn’t really become notable until TDK. In BB, he mostly spoke in a dark whisper. The Joker explicitly said that Dent was his “ace in the hole”, meaning that it was what would seal his victory, but it wasn’t the plan that he put his sole efforts into. Also, how do you know how the Joker felt at the end? The last time we saw him was before Batman decided to take the fall for what Dent did. How exactly would they go about covering up the deaths, especially when two of them were apparently cops?
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 18, 2018 20:01:13 GMT
Youtube was around in 2005, and you're just proving how untouchable people felt Joker was. No one was willing to point out the Nolan Joker's flaws or make fun of him. And I can bet you that those critics probably got a heavy counter-attack for not giving it a 10/10. While YouTube was around back when BB was released, you didn’t start seeing people making fun of the voice until TDK was released. While part of that may just be that a lot more people saw TDK compared BB, part of it was also the fact that the voice didn’t become especially growly until TDK.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 18, 2018 20:06:36 GMT
It was still notable, enough to get some chuckles. So when it got worse in TDK they felt okay making fun of it because it wasn't a swipe against something TDK introduced. Everything was really about Dent first and foremost. The boats were a secondary thing (and like I said, him being able to get them on the boats and rig the boats was just more omnipotence lazy writing) which is why he still felt victorious in the end. They don't need to blame Joker, they just need to say Dent was left brain damaged and was dying from his injuries and cover up the deaths. It didn’t really become notable until TDK. In BB, he mostly spoke in a dark whisper. The Joker explicitly said that Dent was his “ace in the hole”, meaning that it was what would seal his victory, but it wasn’t the plan that he put his sole efforts into. Also, how do you know how the Joker felt at the end? The last time we saw him was before Batman decided to take the fall for what Dent did. How exactly would they go about covering up the deaths, especially when two of them were apparently cops? It was still there though, but even if they started making more fun of the voice in TDK that still doesn't avoid that they ignored all the stuff about TDK they SHOULD have criticized but never did because they feared backlash. It was the one thing he cared about more than anything else except Batman. Last we saw him, he was feeling victorious. Same way they got people to believe Batman randomly killed some Cops. Just say they got killed in the random chaos happening due to Jokers' terrorism. No one was there to say Dent did anything.
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Post by scabab on Mar 18, 2018 20:13:42 GMT
Youtube was around in 2005, and you're just proving how untouchable people felt Joker was. No one was willing to point out the Nolan Joker's flaws or make fun of him. And I can bet you that those critics probably got a heavy counter-attack for not giving it a 10/10. YouTube launched a mere few months before Batman Begins released. The site was completely obscure until mid 2006. What I pointed out had zero to do with the Joker, I don't know why you even brought that up. The video and it's purpose as a spoof was in making fun of the Batman voice. That video released the same time as The Dark Knight. Other parodies and spoofs followed, articles followed, it became a meme and blew up at this time. It was not as you said, a thing for Batman Begins and The Dark Knight Rises but not The Dark Knight as that is a silly notion.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 18, 2018 20:15:12 GMT
It didn’t really become notable until TDK. In BB, he mostly spoke in a dark whisper. The Joker explicitly said that Dent was his “ace in the hole”, meaning that it was what would seal his victory, but it wasn’t the plan that he put his sole efforts into. Also, how do you know how the Joker felt at the end? The last time we saw him was before Batman decided to take the fall for what Dent did. How exactly would they go about covering up the deaths, especially when two of them were apparently cops? It was still there though, but even if they started making more fun of the voice in TDK that still doesn't avoid that they ignored all the stuff about TDK they SHOULD have criticized but never did because they feared backlash. It was the one thing he cared about more than anything else except Batman. Last we saw him, he was feeling victorious. Same way they got people to believe Batman randomly killed some Cops. Just say they got killed in the random chaos happening due to Jokers' terrorism. No one was there to say Dent did anything. I’m really tired of going over with with you but TDK has been criticized for plenty of things. It just so happens that the vast majority of people would agree that whatever shortcomings the film has are by no means enough to outweigh its strong points. Last we saw the Joker was before Batman decided to take the fall for Dent, in order to prevent the Joker from winning. What you’re suggesting is that they blame the Joker for the deaths. Again, that would raise a number of questions and if the Joker and his goons specifically deny killing those particular people, it would prove to be problematic.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 18, 2018 20:24:06 GMT
Youtube was around in 2005, and you're just proving how untouchable people felt Joker was. No one was willing to point out the Nolan Joker's flaws or make fun of him. And I can bet you that those critics probably got a heavy counter-attack for not giving it a 10/10. YouTube launched a mere few months before Batman Begins released. The site was completely obscure until mid 2006. What I pointed out had zero to do with the Joker, I don't know why you even brought that up. The video and it's purpose as a spoof was in making fun of the Batman voice. That video released the same time as The Dark Knight. Other parodies and spoofs followed, articles followed, it became a meme and blew up at this time. It was not as you said, a thing for Batman Begins and The Dark Knight Rises but not The Dark Knight as that is a silly notion. I'm just showing how criticizing Joker was considered taboo and anything from TDK criticized was "excusable" because those same elements originated in BB.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 18, 2018 20:26:57 GMT
It was still there though, but even if they started making more fun of the voice in TDK that still doesn't avoid that they ignored all the stuff about TDK they SHOULD have criticized but never did because they feared backlash. It was the one thing he cared about more than anything else except Batman. Last we saw him, he was feeling victorious. Same way they got people to believe Batman randomly killed some Cops. Just say they got killed in the random chaos happening due to Jokers' terrorism. No one was there to say Dent did anything. I’m really tired of going over with with you but TDK has been criticized for plenty of things. It just so happens that the vast majority of people would agree that whatever shortcomings the film has are by no means enough to outweigh its strong points. Last we saw the Joker was before Batman decided to take the fall for Dent, in order to prevent the Joker from winning. What you’re suggesting is that they blame the Joker for the deaths. Again, that would raise a number of questions and if the Joker and his goons specifically deny killing those particular people, it would prove to be problematic. What other things? The voice, that's nothing! Because by taking the fall, Batman compromised himself and Joker still won. Who'd believe them? It's easier to blame Joker than for people to think Dent did anything. Batman and Gordon don't even consider anything other than "Batman takes the fall". Pure laziness.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 18, 2018 20:32:01 GMT
I’m really tired of going over with with you but TDK has been criticized for plenty of things. It just so happens that the vast majority of people would agree that whatever shortcomings the film has are by no means enough to outweigh its strong points. Last we saw the Joker was before Batman decided to take the fall for Dent, in order to prevent the Joker from winning. What you’re suggesting is that they blame the Joker for the deaths. Again, that would raise a number of questions and if the Joker and his goons specifically deny killing those particular people, it would prove to be problematic. What other things? The voice, that's nothing! Because by taking the fall, Batman compromised himself and Joker still won. Who'd believe them? It's easier to blame Joker than for people to think Dent did anything. Batman and Gordon don't even consider anything other than "Batman takes the fall". Pure laziness. I’ve already given you examples of people criticizing the movie for things other than the voice many times in the past. This is getting extremely tedious. The whole ole point behind Batman taking the fall was to prevent the Joker from winning. The whole reason that the Joker sought to corrupt Dent in the first place was because he wanted Gotham to lose its savior and spiral into chaos. Batman took the fall in order to prevent that from happening. Its not a matter of believing or not believing. The problem is that if the Joker denies killing the people Dent killed while taking credit for his other crimes, it would raise a bunch of questions.
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Post by damngumby on Mar 18, 2018 20:35:44 GMT
The DCEU. I thought that was quite clear in each of my posts on this topic. I mean, how the hell could you have missed that? You're not exactly instilling a lot of confidence in a round five. I don’t really see how that changes anything. If anything, that’s even more ridiculous of a notion than this idea that critics would take pity on a single movie. The ridiculous notion that critics would take pity on a single movie was all yours, chum. I even provided an example of when pity results in disproportionate adulation. Do I have to repeat it again, or can you find your way back to my previous post? The DCEU fell flat on its face with BvS and SS. It wasn’t apparent that this was going to be the norm until Justice League came out. When WW was released there was still some sympathy for the fledgling DCEU and the difficulties it was having. Just read the reviews. Today, the general consensus is that DC simply doesn't give a shit, so pity boosters will be in short supply for any future DC movies.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 18, 2018 20:44:57 GMT
What other things? The voice, that's nothing! Because by taking the fall, Batman compromised himself and Joker still won. Who'd believe them? It's easier to blame Joker than for people to think Dent did anything. Batman and Gordon don't even consider anything other than "Batman takes the fall". Pure laziness. I’ve already given you examples of people criticizing the movie for things other than the voice many times in the past. This is getting extremely tedious. You ever see anyone point out the holes in the "Die a hero or become a villain" or "Some men just want to watch the world burn" philosophies? Because they have them. By compromising, Batman still caused Joker to win. And they could easily spin it in a way to protect Dent and not have Batman take the fall. If they had brains. It is, they can say Joker is lying and no one would question it. Or just blame Joker and not let let anyone interview him. If Batman can take the fall when there's no evidence he did anything, Joker can be blamed easily.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 18, 2018 20:58:28 GMT
I don’t really see how that changes anything. If anything, that’s even more ridiculous of a notion than this idea that critics would take pity on a single movie. The ridiculous notion that critics would take pity on a single movie was all yours, chum. I even provided an example of when pity results in disproportionate adulation. Do I have to repeat it again, or can you find your way back to my previous post? The DCEU fell flat on its face with BvS and SS. It wasn’t apparent that this was going to be the norm until Justice League came out. When WW was released there was still some sympathy for the fledgling DCEU and the difficulties it was having. Just read the reviews. Today, the general consensus is that DC simply doesn't give a shit, so pity boosters will be in short supply for any future DC movies. I clearly stated that your notion that critics were taking pity on a franchise is more ridiculous than taking pity on a single movie. Also, I have read reviews for WW. They don’t sound like pity votes to me. The DCEU was already considered a mess before WW was even released and if the film was simply mediocre, the critics would’ve made that clear.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 18, 2018 21:02:37 GMT
I’ve already given you examples of people criticizing the movie for things other than the voice many times in the past. This is getting extremely tedious. You ever see anyone point out the holes in the "Die a hero or become a villain" or "Some men just want to watch the world burn" philosophies? Because they have them. By compromising, Batman still caused Joker to win. And they could easily spin it in a way to protect Dent and not have Batman take the fall. If they had brains. It is, they can say Joker is lying and no one would question it. Or just blame Joker and not let let anyone interview him. If Batman can take the fall when there's no evidence he did anything, Joker can be blamed easily. If you’re asking whether or not people have complained about the “die a hero” and “watch the world burn” speeches being on the nose, there are plenty of people arguing that. Blaming the Joker really isn’t as easy as you think. If they chose to blame the the Joker for the deaths of Dent and the people he killed, it would raise a number of questions such as when exactly the Joker found time to do that. Plus, the Joker was already in custody when Dent died, so Batman and Gordon would have to find a way to plant evidence in order to frame him.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 18, 2018 21:15:24 GMT
You ever see anyone point out the holes in the "Die a hero or become a villain" or "Some men just want to watch the world burn" philosophies? Because they have them. By compromising, Batman still caused Joker to win. And they could easily spin it in a way to protect Dent and not have Batman take the fall. If they had brains. It is, they can say Joker is lying and no one would question it. Or just blame Joker and not let let anyone interview him. If Batman can take the fall when there's no evidence he did anything, Joker can be blamed easily. If you’re asking whether or not people have complained about the “die a hero” and “watch the world burn” speeches being on the nose, there are plenty of people arguing that. Could have fooled me. There's no evidence Batman killed anyone, yet they're able to pull off framing him. And no one knew where Joker was for a lot of the movie, plenty of time to say he was killing people. As for Dent, just say he wandered off from the hospital and then died from his wounds. No need to say Joker killed him.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 18, 2018 21:25:57 GMT
If you’re asking whether or not people have complained about the “die a hero” and “watch the world burn” speeches being on the nose, there are plenty of people arguing that. Could have fooled me. There's no evidence Batman killed anyone, yet they're able to pull off framing him. And no one knew where Joker was for a lot of the movie, plenty of time to say he was killing people. As for Dent, just say he wandered off from the hospital and then died from his wounds. No need to say Joker killed him. The reason they were able to pull off “framing” Batman was because Bruce wasn’t in police custody. It’s much easier to claim that a man who isn’t already in custody is guilty of specific crimes than it is to say that a man who’s already been arrested for a different set of crimes is guilty for some other crimes.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 18, 2018 22:04:04 GMT
Could have fooled me. There's no evidence Batman killed anyone, yet they're able to pull off framing him. And no one knew where Joker was for a lot of the movie, plenty of time to say he was killing people. As for Dent, just say he wandered off from the hospital and then died from his wounds. No need to say Joker killed him. The reason they were able to pull off “framing” Batman was because Bruce wasn’t in police custody. It’s much easier to claim that a man who isn’t already in custody is guilty of specific crimes than it is to say that a man who’s already been arrested for a different set of crimes is guilty for some other crimes. Not when it's Joker. Saying he killed cops while no one could find him would be easy.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 18, 2018 22:11:45 GMT
The reason they were able to pull off “framing” Batman was because Bruce wasn’t in police custody. It’s much easier to claim that a man who isn’t already in custody is guilty of specific crimes than it is to say that a man who’s already been arrested for a different set of crimes is guilty for some other crimes. Not when it's Joker. Saying he killed cops while no one could find him would be easy. There would still inevitably be a trial for what the Joker would be accused of doing. The moment he denies the murders they’d try to frame him for is the moment where things would get complicated. Again, the reason that Batman was able to take the fall for Dent’s crimes so easily was because he wasn’t in custody, and there can’t be a trial for someone who isn’t in police custody.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 18, 2018 22:18:10 GMT
Not when it's Joker. Saying he killed cops while no one could find him would be easy. There would still inevitably be a trial for what the Joker would be accused of doing. The moment he denies the murders they’d try to frame him for is the moment where things would get complicated. Again, the reason that Batman was able to take the fall for Dent’s crimes so easily was because he wasn’t in custody, and there can’t be a trial for someone who isn’t in police custody. Then don't frame Joker, just have them be random murders that are under investigation with no leads. There are SO MANY other ways out. They were corrupt cops, just say that the Mob had them killed. I mean really, the people of Gotham were dumb enough to believe Dent was a killer purely on some old letter Bane read, they can be just as easily duped into thinking some cops got killed by random killers. But as usual, the Nolan movies have fans who just don't think about these things. They eat up anything he writes like gospel.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 18, 2018 22:33:15 GMT
There would still inevitably be a trial for what the Joker would be accused of doing. The moment he denies the murders they’d try to frame him for is the moment where things would get complicated. Again, the reason that Batman was able to take the fall for Dent’s crimes so easily was because he wasn’t in custody, and there can’t be a trial for someone who isn’t in police custody. Then don't frame Joker, just have them be random murders that are under investigation with no leads. There are SO MANY other ways out. They were corrupt cops, just say that the Mob had them killed. I mean really, the people of Gotham were dumb enough to believe Dent was a killer purely on some old letter Bane read, they can be just as easily duped into thinking some cops got killed by random killers. But as usual, the Nolan movies have fans who just don't think about these things. They eat up anything he writes like gospel. Exactly how long would they be able to keep up the charade of fake investigations? I’m genuinely asking here because that sounds like it would be a rather faulty coverup.
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