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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 21:46:05 GMT
Still find it hard to watch this episode. The ungrateful scum.
I really hoped at the end of the season Buffy would have turned to them all and said... 'bye fuckers'.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Mar 22, 2018 23:06:58 GMT
Would've been an understandable response from Buffy.
The end of that episode is indeed very infuriating.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 23, 2018 15:15:00 GMT
I've always understood the Scoobies' position. They were scared, they'd just taken one of the worst beatings and losses since Glory, and Buffy was too eager to demand they go right back to where they'd suffered a horrific defeat.
In this instance, Buffy was not thinking clearly enough to lead. How had the Scoobies always managed to win the day in the past? By working together, not just charging in.
I'm more infuriated by the events in Touched. Spike--of all people--is the one who gives Buffy the strength to go face Caleb? Huge eye roll. The writers really dropped the ball there, but then again, the whole season was written to turn Spike into Buffy's knight in shining armor. Even the ending of Empty Places is written to serve this nonsensical plot. It should've been the Scoobies and Buffy giving each other strength to go face the big bad. Not the man who just one year prior had tried to rape her. And I say this as a big Spike fan.
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Post by mmexis on Mar 27, 2018 0:26:44 GMT
I also think that kicking Buffy out in Empty Places was also to show the scoobies that it wasn't Buffy's fault. Don't forget that Faith leads them into a trap in the very next episode and they suffer casualties. It's the job/situation and NOT the slayer. Faith was the one who was giving them fun times (she says, "I'm not Buffy.I'm not the one who's been riding your asses" - or something to that effect) and they needed to make her more responsible.
But a horrible episode.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 18:10:39 GMT
I also think that kicking Buffy out in Empty Places was also to show the scoobies that it wasn't Buffy's fault. Don't forget that Faith leads them into a trap in the very next episode and they suffer casualties. It's the job/situation and NOT the slayer. Faith was the one who was giving them fun times (she says, "I'm not Buffy.I'm not the one who's been riding your asses" - or something to that effect) and they needed to make her more responsible. But a horrible episode. Yeah, I get that they were showing that Buffy was ultimately right but for Willow, Xander and Giles (and brat-face) to turn on her so quickly was the shocking part. It felt massively wrong, almost like the writers did it purely to have the reveal moment where Buffy is right all along. It felt forced and made me really dislike characters I had grown to love.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 18:14:02 GMT
I've always understood the Scoobies' position. They were scared, they'd just taken one of the worst beatings and losses since Glory, and Buffy was too eager to demand they go right back to where they'd suffered a horrific defeat. In this instance, Buffy was not thinking clearly enough to lead. How had the Scoobies always managed to win the day in the past? By working together, not just charging in. I'm more infuriated by the events in Touched. Spike--of all people--is the one who gives Buffy the strength to go face Caleb? Huge eye roll. The writers really dropped the ball there, but then again, the whole season was written to turn Spike into Buffy's knight in shining armor. Even the ending of Empty Places is written to serve this nonsensical plot. It should've been the Scoobies and Buffy giving each other strength to go face the big bad. Not the man who just one year prior had tried to rape her. And I say this as a big Spike fan. They could have rejected her plan WITHOUT turning to Faith though (a woman who had tried to kill them all several times). There was something very unpalatable about how they did it. As though all of their resentments towards Buffy were coming out at once. At one point, Anya even mentions that Buffy didn't earn being the slayer. She was only lucky to be the slayer. They were ungrateful scum.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 28, 2018 18:25:57 GMT
I've always understood the Scoobies' position. They were scared, they'd just taken one of the worst beatings and losses since Glory, and Buffy was too eager to demand they go right back to where they'd suffered a horrific defeat. In this instance, Buffy was not thinking clearly enough to lead. How had the Scoobies always managed to win the day in the past? By working together, not just charging in. I'm more infuriated by the events in Touched. Spike--of all people--is the one who gives Buffy the strength to go face Caleb? Huge eye roll. The writers really dropped the ball there, but then again, the whole season was written to turn Spike into Buffy's knight in shining armor. Even the ending of Empty Places is written to serve this nonsensical plot. It should've been the Scoobies and Buffy giving each other strength to go face the big bad. Not the man who just one year prior had tried to rape her. And I say this as a big Spike fan. They could have rejected her plan WITHOUT turning to Faith though (a woman who had tried to kill them all several times). There was something very unpalatable about how they did it. As though all of their resentments towards Buffy were coming out at once. At one point, Anya even mentions that Buffy didn't earn being the slayer. She was only lucky to be the slayer. They were ungrateful scum. Except it wasn't the Scoobies who turned to Faith. It was Kennedy who brought her up. Faith didn't even want the role. Buffy then turned her resentment against Faith. Anya's point was about how Buffy became the slayer and how Buffy feels she's better than her friends for it (something she freely admitted). The reason the entire situation was unpalatable was because Buffy's orders were unpalatable. She had no evidence for what she was suggesting. She just demanded this group of scared young adults and teenagers arm up and go back into the place of their biggest defeat based on little more than a hunch. They weren't ungrateful. They were scared.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 18:32:34 GMT
They could have rejected her plan WITHOUT turning to Faith though (a woman who had tried to kill them all several times). There was something very unpalatable about how they did it. As though all of their resentments towards Buffy were coming out at once. At one point, Anya even mentions that Buffy didn't earn being the slayer. She was only lucky to be the slayer. They were ungrateful scum. Except it wasn't the Scoobies who turned to Faith. It was Kennedy who brought her up. Faith didn't even want the role. Buffy then turned her resentment against Faith. Anya's point was about how Buffy became the slayer and how Buffy feels she's better than her friends for it (something she freely admitted). The reason the entire situation was unpalatable was because Buffy's orders were unpalatable. She had no evidence for what she was suggesting. She just demanded this group of scared young adults and teenagers arm up and go back into the place of their biggest defeat based on little more than a hunch. They weren't ungrateful. They were scared. I'm not concerned about the potentials. It was Xander, Willow, Giles and Dawn that really turned on her. They had the means to discuss things with her privately but didn't. Then they instantly gave their backing to Faith despite everyone agreeing that one person being in charge was not the way to go. As soon as Buffy leaves, faith instantly took charge, contradicting everything they claimed they didn't want. It was immediate. And let's not pretend she didn't enjoy it. Good for her but Willow, Xander and Giles were despicably disloyal.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 28, 2018 19:46:46 GMT
Except it wasn't the Scoobies who turned to Faith. It was Kennedy who brought her up. Faith didn't even want the role. Buffy then turned her resentment against Faith. Anya's point was about how Buffy became the slayer and how Buffy feels she's better than her friends for it (something she freely admitted). The reason the entire situation was unpalatable was because Buffy's orders were unpalatable. She had no evidence for what she was suggesting. She just demanded this group of scared young adults and teenagers arm up and go back into the place of their biggest defeat based on little more than a hunch. They weren't ungrateful. They were scared. I'm not concerned about the potentials. It was Xander, Willow, Giles and Dawn that really turned on her. They had the means to discuss things with her privately but didn't. Then they instantly gave their backing to Faith despite everyone agreeing that one person being in charge was not the way to go. As soon as Buffy leaves, faith instantly took charge, contradicting everything they claimed they didn't want. It was immediate. And let's not pretend she didn't enjoy it. Good for her but Willow, Xander and Giles were despicably disloyal. Buffy and the Scoobies have never discussed anything in private. In any case, Buffy called the public meeting, not the scoobies. And they didn't turn on her. They turned on her plan to go rushing back into a battle against Caleb. With perfectly justifiable reasons to not do it. The argument wasn't that one person can't do it. The argument was that Buffy was being too hasty and not even listening to anyone else's advice. In fact, at no point does anyone say one person is not the way to go. They didn't even want Buffy to step down as leader. Merely to slow down and think things through. As any good leader should do. What pretending? Faith gave no hint she was enjoying being the leader. She looked unsure of herself and not at all like she was having a good time. Calling a leader's rash decisions into question is not disloyalty. Heck, it's not the first time any of the Scoobies have done that to each other.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 20:21:05 GMT
I'm not concerned about the potentials. It was Xander, Willow, Giles and Dawn that really turned on her. They had the means to discuss things with her privately but didn't. Then they instantly gave their backing to Faith despite everyone agreeing that one person being in charge was not the way to go. As soon as Buffy leaves, faith instantly took charge, contradicting everything they claimed they didn't want. It was immediate. And let's not pretend she didn't enjoy it. Good for her but Willow, Xander and Giles were despicably disloyal. Buffy and the Scoobies have never discussed anything in private. In any case, Buffy called the public meeting, not the scoobies. And they didn't turn on her. They turned on her plan to go rushing back into a battle against Caleb. With perfectly justifiable reasons to not do it. The argument wasn't that one person can't do it. The argument was that Buffy was being too hasty and not even listening to anyone else's advice. In fact, at no point does anyone say one person is not the way to go. They didn't even want Buffy to step down as leader. Merely to slow down and think things through. As any good leader should do. What pretending? Faith gave no hint she was enjoying being the leader. She looked unsure of herself and not at all like she was having a good time. Calling a leader's rash decisions into question is not disloyalty. Heck, it's not the first time any of the Scoobies have done that to each other. Of course they've discussed things in private. Countless times in fact. Giles deliberately sent Spike away, knowing that he would have Buffy's back, something Buffy points out. They don't trust her judgment since she's become so close to Spike. In the meeting, they're immediately hostile, despite Faith acknowledging Buffy might have a point about the Vineyard. Principal Wood (another Spike hater) then takes a snide opportunity to knock Buffy ("I think Faith had the floor") and to reitertate that they believe Faith should be followed. They even want a vote. Again, good for them, but Giles, Xander, Willow and Dawn should NOT have been so keen... yet they are. They talk about her not earning it despite, watching her mother die (probably because of Dawn) killing Angel and generally sacrificing her life for all of them. Faith then says: " Listen, we're fighters, all of us, but you gotta give me something to fight, something real, not—" What she means is... something they can beat. And then of course there's the fact that she isn't being rash... Buffy was entirely right. Something they later accept. The potentials, Faith, Principal Wood all have acceptable reasons for turning on her. But Giles, Xander and Willow don't. It was disgraceful.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 28, 2018 21:21:13 GMT
Such as in School Hard, Lie to Me, Dead Man's Party, or The Yoko Factor? The scoobies discuss things in the open that affect the group.
So who else should Giles had sent out other than Spike? A potential? Spike, whether anyone likes it or not, was the best choice. He's always been the best foot soldier they had.
Actually, the scoobies are not immediately hostile. They try to reason with her calmly. Buffy becomes the aggressor first. The scoobies are reluctant and scared, but not at all hostile. The Potentials certainly are, and even Giles escalates to that point, but that's after Buffy has become hostile at them first.
Only Anya talks about Buffy not earning it. And again, she's only referring to how Buffy got her powers, not whether she's proven her worth (she certainly has but it was mere luck she became the slayer). And no, Joyce's death had nothing to do with Dawn. That was said in show and by the writers.
She is being rash. She's not listening to the concerns of her friends. The very people who've helped her for seven years. She's saved the world because she worked with them, not because she forced them to blindly follow.
They didn't turn on her. They questioned her plans. Something they've always done. It wasn't anything new.
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Post by mmexis on Mar 29, 2018 3:20:24 GMT
Except it had all been built up over the season. Willow was catering to her new love, Giles had been told "you have nothing left to teach me {lies my parents told me}, [brat-face] was told 'when the time comes Buffy won't choose you' {CWDP}, and Xander did the "Jawohl" either in the same episode (or a little earlier). Xander has always been back-stabby. The more I watch, the less I like him even though I get he's everyman.
Again, IMHO, I don't think it was to prove that Buffy was right or wrong, but rather that the Slayer job sucks and requires hard choices and equally hard consequences. Anya's comments didn't rankle me so much as she's always told the truth. And it is the truth, she was chosen randomly not through any special skills or abilities. Those all came with the conferring/endowing of the slayer powers.
I also think they only turned to Faith because they HAD the choice. And, technically, Buffy wasn't the slayer in charge as the line had moved to Faith. This is always such a huge plot hole.
As to the ingratitude, Spike sums it up perfectly in Touched (You sad, sad...)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 20:57:45 GMT
Such as in School Hard, Lie to Me, Dead Man's Party, or The Yoko Factor? The scoobies discuss things in the open that affect the group. So who else should Giles had sent out other than Spike? A potential? Spike, whether anyone likes it or not, was the best choice. He's always been the best foot soldier they had. Actually, the scoobies are not immediately hostile. They try to reason with her calmly. Buffy becomes the aggressor first. The scoobies are reluctant and scared, but not at all hostile. The Potentials certainly are, and even Giles escalates to that point, but that's after Buffy has become hostile at them first. Only Anya talks about Buffy not earning it. And again, she's only referring to how Buffy got her powers, not whether she's proven her worth (she certainly has but it was mere luck she became the slayer). And no, Joyce's death had nothing to do with Dawn. That was said in show and by the writers. She is being rash. She's not listening to the concerns of her friends. The very people who've helped her for seven years. She's saved the world because she worked with them, not because she forced them to blindly follow. They didn't turn on her. They questioned her plans. Something they've always done. It wasn't anything new. She isn't hostile at all; she's actually quite excited that she's figured it out. It's only when she explains that they need to go back in that that THEY become hostile towards her. This is demonstrated very quickly by Wood's comments about Faith having the floor (despite Faith, in fact, having actually completed her thought). And this isn't about being scared either since they immediately follow Faith's plan (which actually results in more death). Clearly going into battle or dangerous situations is not the issue for them -- Buffy is. This again is further demonstrated by Anya's comments. Was Buffy suggesting she was better? Not really, yet Anya felt that this was the perfect time to beat that particular strawman. The group act as if death and failure are unacceptable outcomes. As though they can do this without any such messiness. Again, the kids and the Spike-haters are understandable in this regard but the hardcore group (Giles, Willow, Xander) are not. Faith leads how many potentials to their death in the next episode? How quickly do the potentials change their mind and want Buffy to be leader again? They acted disgracefully.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Mar 29, 2018 21:45:05 GMT
She was demanding blind obedience. That's hostile and a sign of a bad leader.
Actually, it is part of being scared. They didn't want to go against Caleb without something more than a hunch. The sewers were a trap, but so was the Vineyard the first time they went there.
I'd say when they're leading a group of teenage girls, they have a right to feel that way. But it's not that people will die (they've understood that for years). They need a reason to go put their lives on the line. Buffy had nothing to offer other than "Do it because I say so." When's the last time that ever worked with teenagers? Or even worked with the Scoobies? You are correct in saying Buffy is the issue. Because she's not being a good leader.
As many as Buffy did the first time they went to the Vineyard? I'm starting season 7 next week. I'll see if I can count to compare the numbers.
It's not disgraceful to question a leader who wants to repeat the exact same plan that ended in failure and death the first time. If Faith had wanted to return to the sewers, she'd've gotten the same reaction.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 18:50:46 GMT
She was demanding blind obedience. That's hostile and a sign of a bad leader. Actually, it is part of being scared. They didn't want to go against Caleb without something more than a hunch. The sewers were a trap, but so was the Vineyard the first time they went there. I'd say when they're leading a group of teenage girls, they have a right to feel that way. But it's not that people will die (they've understood that for years). They need a reason to go put their lives on the line. Buffy had nothing to offer other than "Do it because I say so." When's the last time that ever worked with teenagers? Or even worked with the Scoobies? You are correct in saying Buffy is the issue. Because she's not being a good leader. As many as Buffy did the first time they went to the Vineyard? I'm starting season 7 next week. I'll see if I can count to compare the numbers. It's not disgraceful to question a leader who wants to repeat the exact same plan that ended in failure and death the first time. If Faith had wanted to return to the sewers, she'd've gotten the same reaction. No, not really. She goes on to say: " Look, I'm willing to talk strategy, OK, I'll hear suggestions on how to break this down, but this is the plan. We have to be together on this or we will fail again." She isn't hostile, she doesn't say anything to suggest she's better. Not at all. But the group are instantly hostile to her partly because of what happened and party because they have issues with Spike. Again, this is all fine for the rest of the group but not for the core -- the original scoobies. They at the very least should hear her out but they've been given an opportunity by the presence of Faith to turn on her. And they sure take it. The potentials are right to question her; she just lead them to a disaster. And the principal and Faith make sense too. Even Anya. But Giles, Xander and Willow behaved terribly.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 3, 2018 19:06:52 GMT
Bingo. She's not listening. She wants them to do what she wants.
It goes even more for the original scoobies. They're closest to Buffy. They've helped her win. They've questioned her many times in the past, and that led them to victory. Blindly following Buffy has never worked out for anyone. Questioning a leader is not turning on them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 18:38:22 GMT
Bingo. She's not listening. She wants them to do what she wants. It goes even more for the original scoobies. They're closest to Buffy. They've helped her win. They've questioned her many times in the past, and that led them to victory. Blindly following Buffy has never worked out for anyone. Questioning a leader is not turning on them. Um no, not bingo. What part of... " I'll hear suggestions"... is not listening? That's the point; they don't question her at all; they're outright say no. She offers a compromise but the presence (and animosity) of the potentials and Principal Wood combine to make her offer meaningless. They have also accepted her orders many times before (even when they've been highly questionable) but this time there is a genuine sense of fearing her leadership based on the beating Caleb gave them. It is THEY who do not want to listen. From the moment she starts speaking, they start giving each other uncomfortable looks. They couldn't care less if she is right -- they're not going back in. They want to be given orders that are easier to hear. Regardless of who's giving them.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 9, 2018 13:20:37 GMT
Bingo. She's not listening. She wants them to do what she wants. It goes even more for the original scoobies. They're closest to Buffy. They've helped her win. They've questioned her many times in the past, and that led them to victory. Blindly following Buffy has never worked out for anyone. Questioning a leader is not turning on them. Um no, not bingo. What part of... " I'll hear suggestions"... is not listening? That's the point; they don't question her at all; they're outright say no. She offers a compromise but the presence (and animosity) of the potentials and Principal Wood combine to make her offer meaningless. They have also accepted her orders many times before (even when they've been highly questionable) but this time there is a genuine sense of fearing her leadership based on the beating Caleb gave them. It is THEY who do not want to listen. From the moment she starts speaking, they start giving each other uncomfortable looks. They couldn't care less if she is right -- they're not going back in. They want to be given orders that are easier to hear. Regardless of who's giving them. The part right after it: "but this is the plan." That's not listening. She wants her way. She just doesn't care how she gets it. She had no compromise. It was, "We're doing this." That's not compromise. And exactly. As I said, they're all afraid. They don't want easier orders. They want orders with an actual objective. As Giles and Faith said, they don't need windmills. When they've accepted her orders, it's because they at least knew what they were going to accomplish. Even in the actual military, soldiers are given objectives. They don't just blindly do what they're told.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 26, 2018 12:55:11 GMT
I've always understood the Scoobies' position. They were scared, they'd just taken one of the worst beatings and losses since Glory, and Buffy was too eager to demand they go right back to where they'd suffered a horrific defeat. In this instance, Buffy was not thinking clearly enough to lead. How had the Scoobies always managed to win the day in the past? By working together, not just charging in. I'm more infuriated by the events in Touched. Spike--of all people--is the one who gives Buffy the strength to go face Caleb? Huge eye roll. The writers really dropped the ball there, but then again, the whole season was written to turn Spike into Buffy's knight in shining armor. Even the ending of Empty Places is written to serve this nonsensical plot. It should've been the Scoobies and Buffy giving each other strength to go face the big bad. Not the man who just one year prior had tried to rape her. And I say this as a big Spike fan. So basically you've been an incel your entire life.
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