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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Mar 31, 2018 0:18:42 GMT
Do you remember the debate of how did Maz get Luke Skywalker's lightsaber? Maz said "A story for another time". Abrams wrote that. And despite the insistence that it would be explained in TLJ by TFA defenders it never happened.
Do you remember Rey insisting that she had to return to Jakku because she needed to wait for her parents and find their identity? Do you remember how much of a theme knowing who Rey's parents were was in both TFA and the first half of TLJ? Abrams wrote it that way because he wanted us to ask those questions to create interest in her character.
Even more notable, do you remember the constant subtle hints of the importance of Rey's identity? Kylo said "What girl?!?" Han mentioned "There's this girl..." Maz: "Who's the girl?" Abrams wrote that and framed that.
Remember Snoke's detailed and intimate knowledge of events in the OT? Abrams wrote him to be at least this hidden but keen observer with some kind of connection to the events of the OT. But he never had a story as to how or why.
When Johnson went to Abrams for answers on Rey's parents identity, Abrams had nothing. When Rian Johnson went to Abrams about the significance of the lightsaber, Abrams had nothing. When Rian went to Abrams about Snoke's backstory... nothing. When he looked for answers about why Rey was this "girl" that that had some secret significance or connection that everyone knew about... nothing!
Johnson got nothing because Abrams wrote all of that without ever having an idea or perception of what the answers were. "What girl?!?" and "Who's the girl?" were fake storylines that created intrigue... better known as Abrams mystery box. And when Abrams gave Rian Johnson no answers, he just wrote a mess of a movie that closed out most of Abrams fake storylines, shoehorned Luke Skywalker's characterization for contrived purposes of putting all the shine on Reylo... and moved forward with Reylo and some heel side stories.
Now Abrams is making episode IX, and some people still think that he's going to provide answers. If he has any influence over the writing... don't hold your breath.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Mar 31, 2018 11:11:39 GMT
this is JJA's MO. He did it with Lost, Star Trek etc and it all imploded because it's about the mystery boy, not what is inside. The old rule that for good mystery storytelling you should first create a good story (resolution) idea and wrap the mystery around it, does not apply to JJA. He is a hack.
But with JJA back directing we might finally get answers to the questions he posed:
- I bet Maz will tell how the saber was found (every 5 year old can come up with a story), - I bet Rey will be retconned into something über-important and thus fulfill her MaRey Sue destiny
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 14:46:02 GMT
It's just bombad writing. Both episodes. No real storylines. Nothing bout it honors da legacy it came from. Da characters are like cardboard cutouts - they'sa look'n real on da surface, but be fake underneath with paper thin depth. And da mythos has no authenticity in Disney's trilogy.
Meesa thinks Saw Gerrera said it best. "LIES! DECEPTIONS!... EVERYDAY MORE LIES!!" Not even da Bor Gullet could squeeze some genuine SW truth outta dis fanfic mess!
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 15:13:40 GMT
I can appreciate JJ Abrams' views that "The mystery itself is better than an answer" because David Lynch and Mark Frost had the same idea with Twin Peaks.
Thing is, they both gave us plenty of other stuff to be interested in with Twin Peaks that we had more to care about than just the one major mystery. Abrams didn't give us too much more to care about Rey aside from her thing with her parents.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 15:15:53 GMT
this is JJA's MO. He did it with Lost, Star Trek etc and it all imploded because it's about the mystery boy, not what is inside. The old rule that for good mystery storytelling you should first create a good story (resolution) idea and wrap the mystery around it, does not apply to JJA. He is a hack. But with JJA back directing we might finally get answers to the questions he posed: - I bet Maz will tell how the saber was found (every 5 year old can come up with a story), - I bet Rey will be retconned into something über-important and thus fulfill her MaRey Sue destiny To me, none of that would be meaningful without hashing out Snoke first. I just can't get into a story if I don't understand the villain.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 15:18:45 GMT
this is JJA's MO. He did it with Lost, Star Trek etc and it all imploded because it's about the mystery boy, not what is inside. The old rule that for good mystery storytelling you should first create a good story (resolution) idea and wrap the mystery around it, does not apply to JJA. He is a hack. But with JJA back directing we might finally get answers to the questions he posed: - I bet Maz will tell how the saber was found (every 5 year old can come up with a story), - I bet Rey will be retconned into something über-important and thus fulfill her MaRey Sue destiny To me, none of that would be meaningful without hashing out Snoke first. I just can't get into a story if I don't understand the villain. How much did we know about the Emperor in the OT?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 15:20:31 GMT
I can appreciate JJ Abrams' views that "The mystery itself is better than an answer" because David Lynch and Mark Frost had the same idea with Twin Peaks. Thing is, they both gave us plenty of other stuff to be interested in with Twin Peaks that we had more to care about than just the one major mystery. Abrams didn't give us too much more to care about Rey aside from her thing with her parents. And when we watch Lynch-fare, we get the sense from the beginning that there may never be an easily recognizable, straightforward way of explaining the world he created or the characters therein. Star Wars isn't that kind of story. The first six films articulated character motivations, background and "rules of engagement" very well. This new trilogy is a hodgepodge of conflicting ideas. But that's what you get when you allow different people to write its different components at different times. The burden of that mistake rests on Kennedy and the rest of the Disney overlords.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 15:21:25 GMT
To me, none of that would be meaningful without hashing out Snoke first. I just can't get into a story if I don't understand the villain. How much did we know about the Emperor in the OT? A whole lot more than we discovered about Snoke. It's not even close.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 15:24:00 GMT
How much did we know about the Emperor in the OT? A whole lot more than we discovered about Snoke. It's not even close. Not really, he was Vader's master (how did he become his master?), he rules the Empire (How did he become ruler?) and has Dark Side powers (How?). Nothing about him was explained until the PT. Taken apart like that, he and Snoke are very similar.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 15:30:10 GMT
A whole lot more than we discovered about Snoke. It's not even close. Not really, he was Vader's master (how did he become his master?), he rules the Empire (How did he become ruler?) and has Dark Side powers (How?). Nothing about him was explained until the PT. Taken apart like that, he and Snoke are very similar. Disagree. The very nature, existence and motivation of the Empire itself is a window into Palpatine's character in the OT. We gleam nothing of the sorts about the First Order. In fact, when they had to rely on novels to explain a lot of this open-ended garbage, they fucked that up too, since, you know, Snoke wasn't even involved with the formation of the First Order anyway. But the most important difference is that in the OT, Palpatine's motivations and plans are well-stated and easily understood. If he and Snoke are so alike as you say, then I submit the floor back to you: What was Snoke trying to do in this trilogy?
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 15:44:08 GMT
Not really, he was Vader's master (how did he become his master?), he rules the Empire (How did he become ruler?) and has Dark Side powers (How?). Nothing about him was explained until the PT. Taken apart like that, he and Snoke are very similar. Disagree. The very nature, existence and motivation of the Empire itself is a window into Palpatine's character in the OT. We don't know much about the Empire in the OT either, just that...they're an Evil Empire that wants to control the Galaxy. We know nothing about how they took over in the first place either. Take over the Galaxy.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Mar 31, 2018 15:53:34 GMT
How much did we know about the Emperor in the OT? A whole lot more than we discovered about Snoke. It's not even close. also this is absurd to compare and a silly deflection: Snoke must be explained because he does not fit well with the PT plus OT narrative we saw: if he is such a extremely powerful dark side user and commands an Empire clone with the same vehicles and uniforms, where was he in the OT/PT (Rule of 2). It must be explained. Problem is these hacks did not put half the thought in this stuff that the fans did in their spare time unpaid...
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 15:55:17 GMT
A whole lot more than we discovered about Snoke. It's not even close. also this is absurd to compare and a silly deflection: Snoke must be explained because he does not fit well with the PT plus OT narrative we saw: if he is such a extremely powerful dark side user and commands an Empire clone with the same vehicles and uniforms, where was he in the OT/PT (Rule of 2). It must be explained. No it doesn't. Just like how the OT never explained why the Rebels never bothered trying to use any leftover Confederacy Battledroids for themselves.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Mar 31, 2018 16:10:56 GMT
also this is absurd to compare and a silly deflection: Snoke must be explained because he does not fit well with the PT plus OT narrative we saw: if he is such a extremely powerful dark side user and commands an Empire clone with the same vehicles and uniforms, where was he in the OT/PT (Rule of 2). It must be explained. No it doesn't. Just like how the OT never explained why the Rebels never bothered trying to use any leftover Confederacy Battledroids for themselves. Seriously, comparing the fate of a beaten droid army with the origin of the top dog Empire leader? First, it was the "Separatists", and the fate of the droid armies is pretty clear: they were destroyed and used as scrap metal or they rusted away like old machines do. Palpatine In Sith gave the order to shut them all down so that they pose no danger. They were never that effective as soldiers anyway. In fact in Rebels Season 3 (15 years after Sith) we see a forgotten Droid Army that is still functioning - they are so rusty and disfunctional that they pose no real threat.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 16:14:30 GMT
No it doesn't. Just like how the OT never explained why the Rebels never bothered trying to use any leftover Confederacy Battledroids for themselves. Seriously, comparing the fate of a beaten droid army with the origin of the top dog Empire leader? Hey, you brought up the "This needs to be explained" thing. Why DIDN'T the Rebels use leftover weapons from the PT, especially when they never explained what happened to the Droid Armies beyond "Anakin hit the sleep button"? Not outright stated in the OT. They never explained why they didn't bother setting up a clone facility of their own for their own Clone Troopers either. A droid army not maintenanced in 15 years, not any Droid Armies the Rebels could've co-opted and kept working. It's better than nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 16:15:21 GMT
also this is absurd to compare and a silly deflection: Snoke must be explained because he does not fit well with the PT plus OT narrative we saw: if he is such a extremely powerful dark side user and commands an Empire clone with the same vehicles and uniforms, where was he in the OT/PT (Rule of 2). It must be explained. No it doesn't. Just like how the OT never explained why the Rebels never bothered trying to use any leftover Confederacy Battledroids for themselves. Dats a ridiculous comparison. Da droid factories were shut down after da war was over. Watt Tambor and other Separatist leaders who ran them were assassinated. And even if yousa could come up with a plausible explanation why da battle droids would still be available, what kind of shape would thems be in after sitting round for 20 years rusting?
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 31, 2018 16:17:41 GMT
No it doesn't. Just like how the OT never explained why the Rebels never bothered trying to use any leftover Confederacy Battledroids for themselves. Dats a ridiculous comparison. Da droid factories were shut down after da war was over. Watt Tambor and other Separatist leaders who ran them were assassinated. And even if yousa could come up with a plausible explanation why da battle droids would still be available, what kind of shape would thems be in after sitting round for 20 years rusting? The same as any of the Rebel Starships, fighters and general equipment given how all of that had to be second hand stuff too...which didn't stop the Rebels from USING them anyways. Nor did they explain why the Rebels never considered setting up their own secret factories or cloning facilities. The Galaxy is a big place to hide such things.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 16:29:36 GMT
Disagree. The very nature, existence and motivation of the Empire itself is a window into Palpatine's character in the OT. We don't know much about the Empire in the OT either, just that...they're an Evil Empire that wants to control the Galaxy. We know nothing about how they took over in the first place either. We know more about them than we do The First Order. We may not know exactly how the Empire arose, but we understand other key components of its origin. For instance, Palpatine started it. And we know that his motivations were partially religious. And we have a partial understanding of how he was able to take control and the events that led to the formation of the Empire. So who started the First Order? What is the psychological backdrop of its motivation? How did the First Order start and what are some details about the things that were happening that led to its start? Well, okay, true, but why? What was Snoke's personal motivation that drove him to seek control of the galaxy? We get insight in the OT as to Palpatine's motivation for ruling the galaxy; it's religious. Is Snoke religious? Is he avenging something or someone? Is he just a greedy gold digger? You tell me.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Mar 31, 2018 16:37:14 GMT
Dats a ridiculous comparison. Da droid factories were shut down after da war was over. Watt Tambor and other Separatist leaders who ran them were assassinated. And even if yousa could come up with a plausible explanation why da battle droids would still be available, what kind of shape would thems be in after sitting round for 20 years rusting? The same as any of the Rebel Starships, fighters and general equipment given how all of that had to be second hand stuff too...which didn't stop the Rebels from USING them anyways. Nor did they explain why the Rebels never considered setting up their own secret factories or cloning facilities. The Galaxy is a big place to hide such things. They did.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2018 16:38:53 GMT
Dats a ridiculous comparison. Da droid factories were shut down after da war was over. Watt Tambor and other Separatist leaders who ran them were assassinated. And even if yousa could come up with a plausible explanation why da battle droids would still be available, what kind of shape would thems be in after sitting round for 20 years rusting? The same as any of the Rebel Starships, fighters and general equipment given how all of that had to be second hand stuff too...which didn't stop the Rebels from USING them anyways. Nor did they explain why the Rebels never considered setting up their own secret factories or cloning facilities. The Galaxy is a big place to hide such things. Dats really not true. With da exception of da Y-wing fighters none of the Rebels ships are leftovers from da Clone Wars. And da Y-wing fighters were considered elite ships during da Clone Wars. Da original trilogy versions are heavily modified. Take time to know and learn yousen SW.
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