ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
Likes: 724
|
Post by ryboto on Apr 2, 2018 17:42:30 GMT
-If it's still a sequel, it requires some kind of explanation of motivations, world building...whatever. -"Probably figured"...assumptions not present in the films. -And even with all those powers, turns out he's no one? So, correction, how did the FO get to the point that they could build a planet weapon without detection? Is it explained in the movies? -You missed the point, entirely. I'm not even sure how your response is related to what I said. Did you mean to respond to someone else? I made a comment about world building, and you respond with some nonsense about OT characters? 100 years later would explain how the First Order came about and built up forces easily enough, a new Dark Side User coming to power too because Luke was long gone. In fact, if the OT cast were all dead of old age before the ST came out then there'd be less hatred directed at the ST for introducing new characters because there'd be no way to truly expect the OT characters to still be up and about. 30 years is a long time to build something. You say that there's no world-building in the ST and disrespect of the past OT. If the OT characters were as tough and more powerful than they were in the OT then there'd be no ST to begin with because the idea that there's a new crisis totally contradicts the end of the OT which basically says "Yeah, they won forever and there won't be any new threats. The end." -Nope. That's making the assumption there would have been no republic in place with it's own counter intelligence and military...sure, in a void another enemy could amass, but in actuality there would be resistance -with the OT cast dead it would probably attract less OT fans...which would reduce return for Disney...so, that's RIDICULOUS, silly. -Exactly, 30 years of a Republic based off of the military and intelligence smarts of the Rebellion leaders/members would make for a strong allied force. -I said disrespect to OT cast? Sure, there is, but I didn't say that in my post. Stop imagining shit and just read.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2018 19:11:01 GMT
Nope. That's making the assumption there would have been no republic in place with it's own counter intelligence and military...sure, in a void another enemy could amass, but in actuality there would be resistanceYou mean like how in the OT The Empire came from no where, killed all the Jedi and took over easily? See, No-Win Scenario. Either have the Republic be around and fight off the First Order and there's no need for new characters, or they fail against the First Order (thus justifying new characters) and get derided for it. Right, Disney was in ANOTHER no-win scenario. Either jump past the OT cast completely and piss off all the OT fans or bring in the OT characters but make sure the new characters are the stars of the new story and piss off the OT fans who wanted to see the OT characters doing everything with no need for a New Generation. Screwed either way. And no, don't say "Well, do a passing of the torch!" because that was always going to be impossible. And thanks to the Prequels, a story about a full Republic fighting off the First Order as equals would never work. Same if they made the First Order invaders from another Galaxy. You said respect the worldbuilding. Doing that would mean there could be no sequels because the OT ended on the note of "This is the final ending, nothing beyond this." So you can't do a continuation without disrespecting that.
|
|
ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
Likes: 724
|
Post by ryboto on Apr 2, 2018 19:27:38 GMT
Nope. That's making the assumption there would have been no republic in place with it's own counter intelligence and military...sure, in a void another enemy could amass, but in actuality there would be resistanceYou mean like how in the OT The Empire came from no where, killed all the Jedi and took over easily? Right, Disney was in a no-win scenario. Either jump past the OT cast completely and piss off all the OT fans or bring in the OT characters but make sure the new characters are the stars of the new story and piss off the OT fans who wanted to see the OT characters doing everything with no need for a New Generation. Screwed either way. And no, don't say "Well, do a passing of the torch!" because that was always going to be impossible. And thanks to the Prequels, a story about a full Republic fighting off the First Order as equals would never work. Same if they made the First Order invaders from another Galaxy. You said respect the worldbuilding. Doing that would mean there could be no sequels because the OT ended on the note of "This is the final ending, nothing beyond this." So you can't do a continuation without disrespecting that. -Your version of the story is weird. -Orrrrr....hire a decent writing staff to write an ENTIRE trilogy and don't fire them if they have an independent thought? -Thanks to the Prequels? K. You stopped making sense a while ago. -What the fuck are you talking about? You're inventing inane rules about sequels just to maintain your argument?
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Apr 2, 2018 19:48:53 GMT
You mean like how in the OT The Empire came from no where, killed all the Jedi and took over easily? Right, Disney was in a no-win scenario. Either jump past the OT cast completely and piss off all the OT fans or bring in the OT characters but make sure the new characters are the stars of the new story and piss off the OT fans who wanted to see the OT characters doing everything with no need for a New Generation. Screwed either way. And no, don't say "Well, do a passing of the torch!" because that was always going to be impossible. And thanks to the Prequels, a story about a full Republic fighting off the First Order as equals would never work. Same if they made the First Order invaders from another Galaxy. You said respect the worldbuilding. Doing that would mean there could be no sequels because the OT ended on the note of "This is the final ending, nothing beyond this." So you can't do a continuation without disrespecting that. -Your version of the story is weird. -Orrrrr....hire a decent writing staff to write an ENTIRE trilogy and don't fire them if they have an independent thought? -Thanks to the Prequels? K. You stopped making sense a while ago. -What the fuck are you talking about? You're inventing inane rules about sequels just to maintain your argument? 1) Maybe, but being ludicrously anal over the First Order isn't that much better. 2) Still a No-Win Scenario, for the reasons posted. Ignore the OT cast and you're f***ed, bring in the OT cast but kill them off to make it clear the story is about the new characters and you're f***ed (because keeping them around isn't really an option). Basically you're f***ed. 3) Yes, they tainted the series' doing any political storylines or War stories where equal factions duke it out. Now if the ST mentions politics the audience will run for the hills and if they show the Republic and First Order being equals they think "Ugh, this is as dull as the fighting was in ATOC and ROTS". 4) The OT ending was essentially "And they lived happily every after" and the EU books all end on that note as well. So if you want to respect the ending of the OT, there could NEVER be sequels.
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 2, 2018 21:48:53 GMT
Nope.Β That's making the assumption there would have been no republic in place with it's own counter intelligence and military...sure, in a void another enemy could amass, but in actuality there would be resistanceYou mean like how in the OT The Empire came from no where, killed all the Jedi and took over easily? See, No-Win Scenario. Either have the Republic be around and fight off the First Order and there's no need for new characters, or they fail against the First Order (thus justifying new characters) and get derided for it. Right, Disney was in ANOTHER no-win scenario. Either jump past the OT cast completely and piss off all the OT fans or bring in the OT characters but make sure the new characters are the stars of the new story and piss off the OT fans who wanted to see the OT characters doing everything with no need for a New Generation. Screwed either way. And no, don't say "Well, do a passing of the torch!" because that was always going to be impossible.And thanks to the Prequels, a story about a full Republic fighting off the First Order as equals would never work. Same if they made the First Order invaders from another Galaxy. You said respect the worldbuilding. Doing that would mean there could be no sequels because the OT ended on the note of "This is the final ending, nothing beyond this." So you can't do a continuation without disrespecting that. Why would passing the torch be impossible? Because you think like Disney and Kathleen Kennedy? Because you're paranoid about how much spotlight that the new characters get that they have to have 100% of it in order for it to work?... That's the sign of weak characters, if they're that dependent on an absolute and unshared spotlight in order to resonate with the audience.
|
|
ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
Likes: 724
|
Post by ryboto on Apr 2, 2018 22:50:29 GMT
The OT ending was essentially "And they lived happily every after" and the EU books all end on that note as well. So if you want to respect the ending of the OT, there could NEVER be sequels. They absolutely did not live happily ever after in the EU...would have been a boring series books if that were the case. If you want to respect the ending you don't erode the struggle and accomplishments of the characters in the OT, it's that simple. Millions of non rehash ideas out there that don't involve repeating tropes so blatantly.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 0:21:16 GMT
You mean like how in the OT The Empire came from no where, killed all the Jedi and took over easily? See, No-Win Scenario. Either have the Republic be around and fight off the First Order and there's no need for new characters, or they fail against the First Order (thus justifying new characters) and get derided for it. Right, Disney was in ANOTHER no-win scenario. Either jump past the OT cast completely and piss off all the OT fans or bring in the OT characters but make sure the new characters are the stars of the new story and piss off the OT fans who wanted to see the OT characters doing everything with no need for a New Generation. Screwed either way. And no, don't say "Well, do a passing of the torch!" because that was always going to be impossible.And thanks to the Prequels, a story about a full Republic fighting off the First Order as equals would never work. Same if they made the First Order invaders from another Galaxy. You said respect the worldbuilding. Doing that would mean there could be no sequels because the OT ended on the note of "This is the final ending, nothing beyond this." So you can't do a continuation without disrespecting that. Why would passing the torch be impossible? Because you think like Disney and Kathleen Kennedy? Because you're paranoid about how much spotlight that the new characters get that they have to have 100% of it in order for it to work?... That's the sign of weak characters, if they're that dependent on an absolute and unshared spotlight in order to resonate with the audience. Because OT fans dislike the existence of new characters at all, dislike there's a new crisis that needs to be fought that the OT characters can't do on their own and dislike that the OT characters are being replaced at all by new characters. As far they're concerned, the ST should be about Grandmaster Luke, Fancy Admiral Solo and Minister Leia and the only ST characters around should be killed off ASAP to make it clear Luke and co are still the stars. Know why the Rogue One characters are well liked? Because they were all killed off at the end and weren't around to threaten Luke and co. The opposite happens with the ST characters, which to the OT fans is an unforgivable sin.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 0:23:05 GMT
The OT ending was essentially "And they lived happily every after" and the EU books all end on that note as well. So if you want to respect the ending of the OT, there could NEVER be sequels. They absolutely did not live happily ever after in the EU...would have been a boring series books if that were the case. They did and it was, except for minor things like Chewbacca dying in one of the later books. That's why hardly anyone cared when Disney decanonized them all. Then there can't be any new struggle in the ST at all, because any new conflict will automatically erode the struggle and accomplishments of the OT. The OT ended on a note of finality. This why the video games like KOTOR went with being set thousands of years in the past. As far as those gamemakers were concerned there WAS no future conflict after ROTJ and they had to go into the past.
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 0:37:25 GMT
Why would passing the torch be impossible? Because you think like Disney and Kathleen Kennedy? Because you're paranoid about how much spotlight that the new characters get that they have to have 100% of it in order for it to work?... That's the sign of weak characters, if they're that dependent on an absolute and unshared spotlight in order to resonate with the audience. Because OT fans dislike the existence of new characters at all, dislike there's a new crisis that needs to be fought that the OT characters can't do on their own and dislike that the OT characters are being replaced at all by new characters. As far they're concerned, the ST should be about Grandmaster Luke, Fancy Admiral Solo and Minister Leia and the only ST characters around should be killed off ASAP to make it clear Luke and co are still the stars. Know why the Rogue One characters are well liked? Because they were all killed off at the end and weren't around to threaten Luke and co. The opposite happens with the ST characters, which to the OT fans is an unforgivable sin. Again, that's a lie. I have conversed with tons of OT fans and none of them have complained about the OT characters dying. The only thing I've heard a few times is it would've been nice for Han to stick around one more episode. But that's acknowledging that they expect him to die eventually. Other things like I wish all 3 (Luke, Han, and Leia) had a scene together before everyone started dying off. If you interpreted that as OT fans never want them to die - it speaks to you having some serious comprehension problems. The argument that Rogue One was liked because all of them were killed is nonsense. The opposite is true. I've heard complaints from OT fans who would've liked to have seen some of them survive. Everyone I know has expected a passing of the torch. They just don't like some of the pathetic uncharacteristic portrayals just to put an absolute, unshared spotlight on Rey. In fact, it's unprecedented in SW. And that should tell you something.
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 0:44:49 GMT
They absolutely did not live happily ever after in the EU...would have been a boring series books if that were the case. They did and it was, except for minor things like Chewbacca dying in one of the later books. That's why hardly anyone cared when Disney decanonized them all. Then there can't be any new struggle in the ST at all, because any new conflict will automatically erode the struggle and accomplishments of the OT. The OT ended on a note of finality. This why the video games like KOTOR went with being set thousands of years in the past. As far as those gamemakers were concerned there WAS no future conflict after ROTJ and they had to go into the past. That's not true either. KOTOR was collaborated with George Lucas. And they wanted something that expanded on the prequel era (and tried to broaden it's appeal) in the EU genre since the game was made around that time. There was plenty, plenty of stuff in the Legends EU that storied what came after ROTJ. And sadly, much of it was better than this.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 0:48:46 GMT
Again, that's a lie. I have conversed with tons of OT fans and none of them have complained about the OT characters dying. If that were true then there wouldn't have been so many complaints over Luke and Han. Yes, they can say "It was HOW they died" all they want, but odds are if they'd died differently the OT fans would still be upset they died at all. I can easily interpret it as them not thinking ST new characters are worth their time. They can say that, but if those characters had survived and threatened Luke and co's prominence their attitudes would quickly change. Maybe like 6 movies down the line, and with the ST characters portrayed as useless clinger-ons the whole way through, maybe.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 0:50:12 GMT
They did and it was, except for minor things like Chewbacca dying in one of the later books. That's why hardly anyone cared when Disney decanonized them all. Then there can't be any new struggle in the ST at all, because any new conflict will automatically erode the struggle and accomplishments of the OT. The OT ended on a note of finality. This why the video games like KOTOR went with being set thousands of years in the past. As far as those gamemakers were concerned there WAS no future conflict after ROTJ and they had to go into the past. There was plenty, plenty of stuff in the Legends EU that storied what came after ROTJ. And sadly, much of it was better than this. And guess what? It always ended on a happy note with whatever threat out there eventually dealt with and all was well. There was never any threat of anything happening to Luke, Han or Leia or them being utterly replaced by new protagonists. That was another reason the EU didn't get the vitriolic hatred the ST has been getting from day one: The stories were clearly all about the OT characters and not new ones. Anytime a new character was introduced as a lead they either got killed off or it was reaffirmed that Luke and co were the only real heroes around and they were never going to be replaced.
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 1:05:10 GMT
There was plenty, plenty of stuff in the Legends EU that storied what came after ROTJ. And sadly, much of it was better than this. And guess what? It always ended on a happy note with whatever threat out there eventually dealt with and all was well. There was never any threat of anything happening to Luke, Han or Leia or them being utterly replaced by new protagonists. That was another reason the EU didn't get the vitriolic hatred the ST has been getting from day one: The stories were clearly all about the OT characters and not new ones. Anytime a new character was introduced as a lead they either got killed off or it was reaffirmed that Luke and co were the only real heroes around and they were never going to be replaced. No all of the EU wasn't like that. Besides, you can still portray those OT stars as being successful, competent, and even happy - particularly in the first film of the trilogy. All you need is to make sure that you have a competent threat to all of the heroes (both old and new). Thinking that you can't do that is fanfic thinking.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 1:39:15 GMT
And guess what? It always ended on a happy note with whatever threat out there eventually dealt with and all was well. There was never any threat of anything happening to Luke, Han or Leia or them being utterly replaced by new protagonists. That was another reason the EU didn't get the vitriolic hatred the ST has been getting from day one: The stories were clearly all about the OT characters and not new ones. Anytime a new character was introduced as a lead they either got killed off or it was reaffirmed that Luke and co were the only real heroes around and they were never going to be replaced. No all of the EU wasn't like that. Besides, you can still portray those OT stars as being successful, competent, and even happy - particularly in the first film of the trilogy. All you need is to make sure that you have a competent threat to all of the heroes (both old and new). Ford wasn't coming back unless he died in the first movie, meaning the new characters were screwed due to their introduction being "the film that killed Han Solo". And if the OT heroes can't handle the new threat on their own they're automatically less than what they were by the end of ROTJ, especially Luke as he was portrayed as an incorruptible pureness Hero who could do no wrong. The ST was never going to be able to create some new super-threat to threaten the OT Cast to the point they needed the ST cast to take over without complaint, because any new threat would mean the OT was apparently for nothing. This comes partially from the ST being made so long after the OT. If they'd made the ST like 5 or 10 years after the OT the fandom wouldn't be more of a hatedom.
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 2:10:11 GMT
No all of the EU wasn't like that. Besides, you can still portray those OT stars as being successful, competent, and even happy - particularly in the first film of the trilogy. All you need is to make sure that you have a competent threat to all of the heroes (both old and new). Ford wasn't coming back unless he died in the first movie, meaning the new characters were screwed due to their introduction being "the film that killed Han Solo". And if the OT heroes can't handle the new threat on their own they're automatically less than what they were by the end of ROTJ, especially Luke as he was portrayed as an incorruptible pureness Hero who could do no wrong. The ST was never going to be able to create some new super-threat to threaten the OT Cast to the point they needed the ST cast to take over without complaint, because any new threat would mean the OT was apparently for nothing. This comes partially from the ST being made so long after the OT. If they'd made the ST like 5 or 10 years after the OT the fandom wouldn't be more of a hatedom. Nope. Not true. You can keep saying the same things. Doesn't make it true. People were even hoping to see Rey and Luke team up in something. Nobody wanted Rey out of the way. They just didn't want the old characters being inept. Han Solo's death in no way screwed over the new characters. That doesn't even make sense. His death had nothing to do with the portrayal of the new characters. And he even took a back seat to Rey on his own ship! You're full of it. You're fabricating stuff.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 2:32:16 GMT
Ford wasn't coming back unless he died in the first movie, meaning the new characters were screwed due to their introduction being "the film that killed Han Solo". And if the OT heroes can't handle the new threat on their own they're automatically less than what they were by the end of ROTJ, especially Luke as he was portrayed as an incorruptible pureness Hero who could do no wrong. The ST was never going to be able to create some new super-threat to threaten the OT Cast to the point they needed the ST cast to take over without complaint, because any new threat would mean the OT was apparently for nothing. This comes partially from the ST being made so long after the OT. If they'd made the ST like 5 or 10 years after the OT the fandom wouldn't be more of a hatedom. Nope. Not true. You can keep saying the same things. Doesn't make it true. People were even hoping to see Rey and Luke team up in something. Nobody wanted Rey out of the way. They wanted to see them team up just so Luke could school Rey at every turn and make it clear she's a useless hanger on and Luke was still top dog. Or have her get turned into a damsel who needed rescuing from the older hero just to show she's inadequate next to him. This is like the negativity with Iron Man being in Spider-Man Homecoming even though he turned out to just be in it for a few minutes. That the film portrayed him as equal to or better than Spidey was apparently unforgivable, and fans of the older Raimi movies apparently would've wanted him to be in the movie so Peter could beat him up or something. If they couldn't handle the First Order on their own, then they're automatically inept from how they were in the OT. You can't get around that. OT fans would see him die and think "They only killed him off to make way for the new characters! In retaliation, I will hate the new characters!"
|
|
|
Post by darkpast on Apr 3, 2018 2:46:30 GMT
Yet, now people complained that Rian destroyed everything and gave JJ a blank slate again. Make up your minds fanboys. No wonder George sold the franchise.
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 2:53:20 GMT
Nope. Not true. You can keep saying the same things. Doesn't make it true. People were even hoping to see Rey and Luke team up in something. Nobody wanted Rey out of the way. They wanted to see them team up just so Luke could school Rey at every turn and make it clear she's a useless hanger on and Luke was still top dog. Or have her get turned into a damsel who needed rescuing from the older hero just to show she's inadequate next to him. This is like the negativity with Iron Man being in Spider-Man Homecoming even though he turned out to just be in it for a few minutes. That the film portrayed him as equal to or better than Spidey was apparently unforgivable, and fans of the older Raimi movies apparently would've wanted him to be in the movie so Peter could beat him up or something. If they couldn't handle the First Order on their own, then they're automatically inept from how they were in the OT. You can't get around that. OT fans would see him die and think "They only killed him off to make way for the new characters! In retaliation, I will hate the new characters!" Wrong on all counts! I talk to other OT fans all the time and none of what you said reflects their opinion. Don't bother responding claiming your accusations are true because I'll just call them lies... because they are. OT fans aren't saying any of this stuff or taking those positions. Lies.
|
|
|
Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 3, 2018 2:59:40 GMT
Yet, now people complained that Rian destroyed everything and gave JJ a blank slate again. Make up your minds fanboys. No wonder George sold the franchise. Johnson only exposed Abrams dead end mystery box. He didn't destroy what JJ did, he just exposed it as being empty in the first place. Blank slate? The reality is that there's no slate! That's Jar Jar Abrams talent - tricking the audience into seeing a slate that was never really there. And that'll be even more apparent after episode IX comes out.
|
|
|
Post by darkpast on Apr 3, 2018 3:13:18 GMT
Yet, now people complained that Rian destroyed everything and gave JJ a blank slate again. Make up your minds fanboys. No wonder George sold the franchise. Johnson only exposed Abrams dead end mystery box. He didn't destroy what JJ did, he just exposed it as being empty in the first place. Blank slate? The reality is that there's no slate! That's Jar Jar Abrams talent - tricking the audience into seeing a slate that was never really there. And that'll be even more apparent after episode IX comes out. i did not think the TFA had many mysteries, at least none i spent my days thinking about. What you are seeing is trilogy without a plan, making it up as go along rarely works out.
|
|