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Post by politicidal on Apr 3, 2018 12:52:57 GMT
What the f*ck? I'm disappointed in hearing this, Mark. It's a pretty narrow minded way of thinking.
"...I think it’s really simple: the characters aren’t cinematic, and I say this as a massive DC fan who much prefers their characters to Marvel’s. Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are some of my favourites, but I think these characters, with the exception of Batman, they aren’t based around their secret identity; they are based around their super power. Whereas the Marvel characters tend to be based around the personality of Matt Murdock or Peter Parker or the individual X-Men, it’s all about the character.”
(Via Cinema Blend).
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Post by scabab on Apr 3, 2018 13:17:47 GMT
Well I don't know if I necessarily agree and I ain't the biggest comic reader but I have always thought the Marvel characters come across as more like real people with real problems than the DC characters who are likes Gods.
Peter Parker has had trouble with money, girls, his job, his aunt, being somewhere on time etc. Does Shazam or Aquaman have these problems?
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Post by politicidal on Apr 3, 2018 14:09:42 GMT
scabab, if one considers DC's characters more archetypical, fine. To me, it's an extraordinary leap to just say they're not cinematic enough. He's a writer ffs, if he wants to see Aquaman take Aqualad fishing or whatever, pen it already.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 3, 2018 14:32:51 GMT
Mark's wrong. After all, the two best Superman movies are all about Clark's personality.
Heck, a big chunk of the Wonder Woman movie was a fish out of water theme.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 14:41:57 GMT
Mark's wrong. After all, the two best Superman movies are all about Clark's personality. Heck, a big chunk of the Wonder Woman movie was a fish out of water theme. Eh...Superman I really comes to a skidding halt once we get to Metropolis and Luthor shows up. It all devolves to silliness after that.
Superman II has Superman hardly acting heroic at all, which disqualifies it from being that good.
WW relied on its supporting cast to carry the film more than Gadot. Her whole arc was "Naïve Woman-Child becomes less naïve Woman-Child."
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 3, 2018 16:21:38 GMT
Not true. We still see Clark/Superman's personality all throughout the movie, silliness not withstanding. It's Clark that carries the film, not the super powers.
Superman II also focuses on Clark's personality in regards to his feelings with Lois. In fact, he gives up his relationship with Lois to save the world. Mass consensus has already declared it a good movie. There is no disqualification.
And yes, WW had a strong supporting cast as all good movies do, but it still focused on her personality, which is the point.
Millar is wrong in saying they aren't cinematic. Anything can be cinematic if written properly. Just look at Naked Lunch.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 16:57:16 GMT
Not true. We still see Clark/Superman's personality all throughout the movie, silliness not withstanding. It's Clark that carries the film, not the super powers. Eh, once Luthor shows up it's more Luthor who carries the film. He gives up his powers (that will save millions of lives) to be with a Nutbag like Kidder's Lois (especially when SMII and Quest for Peace gives us much better love interests in Lana and Lacy) despite her being an illiterate, chain smoking scatter brain. Then when he's repowered he sadistically tortures Zod (even if he does or doesn't kill him) with a smile on his face, goes back to beat up that redneck trucker and then violates Lois' mind for...reasons. Sorry, that ain't Superman. Compare her personality to someone like Steve Rogers', and you see difference between an archetype and a character. I can think of at least two things wrong with that movies' title.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 3, 2018 17:08:43 GMT
Luthor drives the plot. Clark drives the story. It's still Superman's personality that shines in the movie, not his powers. The focus of his character is the personality. The audience gets to know Clark. Who he is, what he believes.
Everything there just proves my point. Millar is wrong in saying that the movies are all about their powers. All of that reflects character.
Regardless, it's his personality that is driving the story. Which is the point. Plus, considering he has given up his powers in the comics for Lois or retired/shut himself away many times, it sounds exactly like Superman.
Yeah, the mind rape is a terrible moment. Still don't care for that.
Regarding WW, even Steve started out as an archetype. He changed. So did Diana.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 17:21:20 GMT
Luthor drives the plot. Clark drives the story. Eh, Clark drives the story UNTIL Luthor shows up and then it all comes to a screeching halt. Bu the hero being overshadowed by the villain was very typical back in those days. In this case, a crappy character. Now we have the OPPOSITE problem. The only time I remember him doing that was in "Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow" and that was a finale story anyways. She hasn't seemed to have changed all that much compared to Steve, though. And I had problems with how the movie didn't seem to be willing to put her in real danger the whole way through, even in her battle with Ares.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 3, 2018 17:26:42 GMT
What the f*ck? I'm disappointed in hearing this, Mark. It's a pretty narrow minded way of thinking. "...I think it’s really simple: the characters aren’t cinematic, and I say this as a massive DC fan who much prefers their characters to Marvel’s. Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are some of my favourites, but I think these characters, with the exception of Batman, they aren’t based around their secret identity; they are based around their super power. Whereas the Marvel characters tend to be based around the personality of Matt Murdock or Peter Parker or the individual X-Men, it’s all about the character.” (Via Cinema Blend). I kinda have to agree with what he said about how the characters are perceived. That's why the stories totally change or not depending on who you have in the book. You can make a Batman book and have Dick Grayson in the costume, you'd pretty much have the same stories. But at the same time even putting Ben Reilly (a clone of Peter Parker) in the Spider-man suit and it would be a totally different book. And what he said about their secret identities. DC characters are the ones in the suit while the secret ID is the secondary. I think, for the most part, they should work that angle for the movies. Minimize the secret ID of the characters unless they really need them for the story. Don't try to make reasons for Bruce Wayne to be shown around town when it doesn't serve anything.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 3, 2018 17:43:59 GMT
Mark's wrong. After all, the two best Superman movies are all about Clark's personality. Heck, a big chunk of the Wonder Woman movie was a fish out of water theme. What he's saying is that, at DC, she's Wonder Woman 1st and Diana Prince 2nd.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 3, 2018 18:00:56 GMT
Mark's wrong. After all, the two best Superman movies are all about Clark's personality. Heck, a big chunk of the Wonder Woman movie was a fish out of water theme. What he's saying is that, at DC, she's Wonder Woman 1st and Diana Prince 2nd. Admittedly, this is one case where she really is Wonder Woman 1st and Diana Prince is literally just a made up identity so Wonder Woman can do her work.
Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne are the ones who suffer from their costumes coming first when they shouldn't.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 3, 2018 18:22:45 GMT
Mark's wrong. After all, the two best Superman movies are all about Clark's personality. Heck, a big chunk of the Wonder Woman movie was a fish out of water theme. What he's saying is that, at DC, she's Wonder Woman 1st and Diana Prince 2nd. And he's wrong. Diana's personality is a big part of the story.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 3, 2018 18:31:30 GMT
Clark still drives the story. Luthor drives the plot. Those are two separate literary elements.
Not at all. The opposite problem was not focusing on the character at all, as Millar falsely believes.
Exiled in Space and Kingdom Come come to mind. Even in The Death of Clark Kent, he attempted to abandon his life as Superman.
Doesn't mean she hasn't. Heck, Steve doesn't seem to be all that strong compared to Superman. Doesn't mean he doesn't have super strength. Change isn't measured against something else.
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Post by Skaathar on Apr 3, 2018 19:44:31 GMT
What the f*ck? I'm disappointed in hearing this, Mark. It's a pretty narrow minded way of thinking. "...I think it’s really simple: the characters aren’t cinematic, and I say this as a massive DC fan who much prefers their characters to Marvel’s. Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are some of my favourites, but I think these characters, with the exception of Batman, they aren’t based around their secret identity; they are based around their super power. Whereas the Marvel characters tend to be based around the personality of Matt Murdock or Peter Parker or the individual X-Men, it’s all about the character.” (Via Cinema Blend). Well... yes. I've been saying this for some time now. It's really hard to make multiple movies about a superhero who doesn't have that much of a personality and who's defining characteristic is their powerset... at least for this generation of viewers. Modern audiences like more personality, more intricacies from movie lead characters. This is why Hulk movies have trouble becoming successful. This why Nolan's TDK trilogy became so successful: Because they stopped concentrating on Batman and instead focused on Bruce Wayne being Batman.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 3, 2018 19:53:43 GMT
What he's saying is that, at DC, she's Wonder Woman 1st and Diana Prince 2nd. And he's wrong. Diana's personality is a big part of the story. Her main personality is Wonder Woman. She changes who she is to be Diana Prince. Diana "Prince" is her Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne. The identities they put on. The secret identity of the Marvel characters are their real selves. The superhero identities of most of the Marvel superhero/secret ID characters is what they put on. The only ones that don't change who they are in their hero guise are the ones that are public knowledge.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 3, 2018 20:04:54 GMT
What he's saying is that, at DC, she's Wonder Woman 1st and Diana Prince 2nd. Admittedly, this is one case where she really is Wonder Woman 1st and Diana Prince is literally just a made up identity so Wonder Woman can do her work.
Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne are the ones who suffer from their costumes coming first when they shouldn't.
In a way Wonder Woman and Superman are the same in that they are that superhero character disguising themselves as regular people. Only difference is that Diana's is a conscious decision as an adult while Clark is something put on Kal El to hide since when he was a baby. Bruce Wayne basically died when he was a kid and another person took on that identity as a cover for Batman. Characters like the Flash became the Flash and has to hide as Barry by slowing himself down. He doesn't put on the speed.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 3, 2018 20:45:34 GMT
And he's wrong. Diana's personality is a big part of the story. Her main personality is Wonder Woman. She changes who she is to be Diana Prince. Diana "Prince" is her Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne. The identities they put on. The secret identity of the Marvel characters are their real selves. The superhero identities of most of the Marvel superhero/secret ID characters is what they put on. The only ones that don't change who they are in their hero guise are the ones that are public knowledge. Except that's not entirely accurate. Is Spider-man the meek Peter Parker or the friendly neighborhood web-slinger always cracking jokes? Clark is no more the mild-mannered reporter than he is the big blue boy scout lecturing people on the safety of flying. Both are put-ons. One of the most fascinating things I came across collecting Superman comics is just how much Superman is the disguise. Clark Kent is the real self. The farm boy who takes more pride in writing a Pulitzer Prize winning article than in lifting a building.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 3, 2018 22:09:37 GMT
Her main personality is Wonder Woman. She changes who she is to be Diana Prince. Diana "Prince" is her Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne. The identities they put on. The secret identity of the Marvel characters are their real selves. The superhero identities of most of the Marvel superhero/secret ID characters is what they put on. The only ones that don't change who they are in their hero guise are the ones that are public knowledge. Except that's not entirely accurate. Is Spider-man the meek Peter Parker or the friendly neighborhood web-slinger always cracking jokes? Clark is no more the mild-mannered reporter than he is the big blue boy scout lecturing people on the safety of flying. Both are put-ons. One of the most fascinating things I came across collecting Superman comics is just how much Superman is the disguise. Clark Kent is the real self. The farm boy who takes more pride in writing a Pulitzer Prize winning article than in lifting a building. Spider-man is his strength. He's Peter Parker before he is Spider-man. The explanation he gave the kid in TASM about the mask making him stronger is how he is in the comics. The mask is what gives him his confidence. When he goes on the date with Lois and is about to tell her his secret. When he stands up straight, that's the real person. He became Superman and shrugged off Clark. He does the same thing in Superman 2 when he stuck his hand in the fire and got upset when she ultimately figured him out. Same goes for when they are together in the FoS and when he's talking to his holo mom. That's all the real Clark. Yes, he's putting on a show when he tells her flying is the safest way to travel. You can see that he's trolling her when he turns around and smiles. Part of it, yes. The trying to be the "messenger of hope" Superman. But the Kal El that's with the Justice League is the real one. There is the Superman that's talking to journalist or a crowd, Clark Kent, and the Kal El that hangs with the Justice League and others that know his secret and grew up in Smallville. That Kal El is usually different than the Clark in Metropolis. And, yes, he does take pride in that article because that is not something that came to him from birth.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 3, 2018 22:30:32 GMT
Except that's not entirely accurate. Is Spider-man the meek Peter Parker or the friendly neighborhood web-slinger always cracking jokes? Clark is no more the mild-mannered reporter than he is the big blue boy scout lecturing people on the safety of flying. Both are put-ons. One of the most fascinating things I came across collecting Superman comics is just how much Superman is the disguise. Clark Kent is the real self. The farm boy who takes more pride in writing a Pulitzer Prize winning article than in lifting a building. Spider-man is his strength. He's Peter Parker before he is Spider-man. The explanation he gave the kid in TASM about the mask making him stronger is how he is in the comics. The mask is what gives him his confidence. When he goes on the date with Lois and is about to tell her his secret. When he stands up straight, that's the real person. He became Superman and shrugged off Clark. He does the same thing in Superman 2 when he stuck his hand in the fire and got upset when she ultimately figured him out. Same goes for when they are together in the FoS and when he's talking to his holo mom. That's all the real Clark. Yes, he's putting on a show when he tells her flying is the safest way to travel. You can see that he's trolling her when he turns around and smiles. Part of it, yes. The trying to be the "messenger of hope" Superman. But the Kal El that's with the Justice League is the real one. There is the Superman that's talking to journalist or a crowd, Clark Kent, and the Kal El that hangs with the Justice League and others that know his secret and grew up in Smallville. That Kal El is usually different than the Clark in Metropolis. And, yes, he does take pride in that article because that is not something that came to him from birth. So is the real Peter Parker meek and timid? Clark did indeed shrug off the mild-mannered reporter, yes. But he wasn't using the Superman persona. We also saw in Superman 4 when the developers were trying to buy his farm the real Clark. The bumbling fool persona he puts on for Lois and everyone else is as much a disguise as the blue tights and cape. The real Clark is somewhere in the middle. Plus, he's not Kal-El. He's Clark. He grew up with Johnathan and Martha Kent on their farm. He learned their values and morals. Kal-El is someone he never got to be. Kal-El would also be a disguise to other heroes who aren't as close to him. Bruce calls him Clark. The JL/JLU series was great at showing all their real personalities. Clark becomes Superman so people will let him lead a normal human life. If Superman was who he really was, there'd be no need for Clark.
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