ryboto
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@ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Apr 10, 2018 20:22:37 GMT
-No, that was Michael Arndt. Disney didn't like the direction he was going and wasn't interested in giving him time to draft different versions. -Limitless possibilities of how the galaxy unfolds in the aftermath of the Empire. Is there a power struggle? Does the Galaxy Unite? Does the remnant disperse only to secretly regroup and amass power? Even more I haven't mentioned! Just takes some imagination, and time. Had Disney waited instead of pushing at the expense of story/creativity, maybe we'd have an outcome we'd all enjoy. Now it's just for the shills. Same difference, the guys in charge saw every script treatment that kept Luke around and just couldn't think of a way to have a plot with him in it that didn't render Rey and Finn absolutely superfluous. That's politics, and politics and Star Wars don't mix. Besides, TFA is 30 years later. 30 years later things would've stabilized. And a film that openly up with Luke's bumbling sidekick Jedi Trainee Rey going on a mission where she meets Republic Trooper Trainee Finn at the behest of All-Powerful Grandmaster Luke and Chancellor Leia would've bombed like crazy. -That's your made up version of things. Truth is, you don't know exactly what happened. Eventually someone will spill the beans and we'll have a clearer story about how it fell apart. -Who's to say the hutts couldn't rise to power in a section of the galaxy and there's a galactic truce? Honestly dude, you're being really narrow minded just to defend the shitty choices the writers/directors made.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 20:29:48 GMT
Same difference, the guys in charge saw every script treatment that kept Luke around and just couldn't think of a way to have a plot with him in it that didn't render Rey and Finn absolutely superfluous. That's politics, and politics and Star Wars don't mix. Besides, TFA is 30 years later. 30 years later things would've stabilized. And a film that openly up with Luke's bumbling sidekick Jedi Trainee Rey going on a mission where she meets Republic Trooper Trainee Finn at the behest of All-Powerful Grandmaster Luke and Chancellor Leia would've bombed like crazy. -That's your made up version of things. Truth is, you don't know exactly what happened. Eventually someone will spill the beans and we'll have a clearer story about how it fell apart. Maybe. A movie about Luke's bumbling sidekick going off to fight the Hutts, 30 years and that's the the best writers could come up with? That film would deserve to bomb like crazy. Like I said, Disney was dealt a s****y hand. If they'd bought out Star Wars back in the 80s and starting making sequels like in 1993 so the time gap wasn't so big they'd have more wiggle room. And they'd never have made the Prequels so the fandom wouldn't be so sour on the idea of Political Storylines or Equal Factions duking it out. As it is, the Prequels derailed a lot of the ST's growth room.
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ryboto
Sophomore
@ryboto
Posts: 776
Likes: 724
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Post by ryboto on Apr 10, 2018 20:45:55 GMT
-That's your made up version of things. Truth is, you don't know exactly what happened. Eventually someone will spill the beans and we'll have a clearer story about how it fell apart. Maybe. A movie about Luke's bumbling sidekick going off to fight the Hutts, 30 years and that's the the best writers could come up with? That film would deserve to bomb like crazy. Like I said, Disney was dealt a s****y hand. If they'd bought out Star Wars back in the 80s and starting making sequels like in 1993 so the time gap wasn't so big they'd have more wiggle room. And they'd never have made the Prequels so the fandom wouldn't be so sour on the idea of Political Storylines or Equal Factions duking it out. As it is, the Prequels derailed a lot of the ST's growth room. -look at that, a semi concession! -I said nothing of the scenario you are describing. -Disney had so much to work with and they tied their own nuse by setting release dates ahead of having a story complete. They didn't allow for the creative process to happen, and so we got a rushed script with TFA. It just spiraled out of control with TLJ. Prequel fear just made them afraid of risk. So they took zero initially, and that mediocrity lead to the next guy subverting everything, which was the polar opposite and does complete disservice to fans. It's just an incredible shit storm of bad decisions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 20:58:04 GMT
That's a ridiculous question and you (I hope, anyway) know it. But quite the opposite actually. The conflict isn't new at all! I resent the ST for simply reskinning the Empire and Rebels in order to basically make the exact same trilogy. And if they had there be an Anti-Republic Faction or Invaders from another Galaxy, they'd be accused of just re-skinning the Separatists and Republic from the Prequels.
No-Win Scenario.
Well, it certainly was a no-win scenario. The safe route probably was the smartest route from Disney's standpoint. But that's the whole problem with new creative teams resurrecting beloved franchises: they're really only interested in profits, so risks are rarely taken and everything just feels like a big remake. That's what happened here. Star Wars has been purged of all originality and imagination.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 21:30:21 GMT
No, because a lot of those same fans that were angry about Luke's role were very satisfied with Han's role in TFA. Eh, no they weren't. Hans' whole thing in TFA was derided, especially his death scene. If anything that was the last straw where the audience gave up on ever accepting the new leads, because they resented them for the OT characters being retired/killed off. Only an idiot tells other people what they're opinion is when they've clearly already voiced it.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 21:36:33 GMT
That's NOT why TFA was so successful at the box office. TFA was so successful because they marketed it (somewhat misleadingly) as a SW film that was going to provide what every SW demographic wanted. The PT fans wanted new worlds. They wanted new characters with SW heritage (OT or PT) but with a new, unique twist. Which was incompatible with what OT fans wanted. What, were they expecting the whole planet to be one big starship graveyard with nothing else? Actually, I'm pretty sure they starting taking swipes at Rey as soon as they saw she lived on a Sand planet and drove any kind of land speeder. He looked like Vader, even though we've ton plenty of other Sith who dress similarly and no one complained. Which would violate the existing lore of SW, another strike that offends everyone. Incompatible with how the PT did things. They wanted JUST the OT characters back, with any new characters delegated to minimal "bumbling sidekick" or "useless tagalong" roles so to not threaten the OT characters. Yeah, he should've been a 1-Note Stoic Badass who doesn't emote instead of showing any flaws. Of course, the tons and tons of new people who weren't invested in SW couldn't have been drawn just out of mere curiosity... Don't ask for the impossible. PT and ST fans are diametrically opposed, so doing something that had both PT and OT stuff was always impossible. The OT characters could never be portrayed exactly the way they were in the OT if new characters were ever going to be more than useless sidekicks, so having fully heroic ST leads and OT Heroes at full power was another impossibility because the OT characters would ALWAYS have utterly sabotaged the ST characters with their mere presence. Another impossibility. The OT leads were actually going to NOT be the stars of these movies. Which turned off OT fans. Go read the Expanded Universe Novels, do ANY of them have the OT losing in any new adventures or conflicts? Do we EVER get stories of the OT cast dying and passing their torch to any new characters? No, the OT cast are ALWAYS in the lead and the new characters are NEVER allowed to be epic heroes in their own right. Everything ALWAYS had to be under the shadow of the OT characters. None of it was incompatible or impossible. Why? Because you said it is? And that's supposed be true because...? So far you have offered no proof of any of your claims. Not even that link you posted. And your knowledge of SW is a joke. Every person on this board has exhibited more knowledge of SW than you. So your opinion has no credibility. You're just a blathering idiot.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 21:40:20 GMT
Man...I wish they'd made the movie in that trailer... Don't ask for the impossible. Don't be an idiot by claiming something's impossible that you clearly can't prove is impossible. In fact you haven't even put up a good argument for it.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 21:43:57 GMT
It's quite telling that the one user here (FormersamIam) that is vehemently defending the ST is also someone that clearly dislikes the OT. I got no problem pointing out its flaws and not treating it like the end-all-be-all, if that's what you mean. Except you haven't brought out any OT flaws. Just made baseless lies about their fanbase. And your criticism of the OT has been the equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I?" Laughable.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 21:48:39 GMT
Maybe. A movie about Luke's bumbling sidekick going off to fight the Hutts, 30 years and that's the the best writers could come up with? That film would deserve to bomb like crazy. Like I said, Disney was dealt a s****y hand. If they'd bought out Star Wars back in the 80s and starting making sequels like in 1993 so the time gap wasn't so big they'd have more wiggle room. And they'd never have made the Prequels so the fandom wouldn't be so sour on the idea of Political Storylines or Equal Factions duking it out. As it is, the Prequels derailed a lot of the ST's growth room. -look at that, a semi concession! -I said nothing of the scenario you are describing. -Disney had so much to work with and they tied their own nuse by setting release dates ahead of having a story complete. They didn't allow for the creative process to happen, and so we got a rushed script with TFA. It just spiraled out of control with TLJ. Prequel fear just made them afraid of risk. So they took zero initially, and that mediocrity lead to the next guy subverting everything, which was the polar opposite and does complete disservice to fans. It's just an incredible shit storm of bad decisions. Whether you like it or not, the ST was going to be about new characters. For some reason the idea of Rey not being an independent heroine is disgusting to OT fans so in this scenario she must therefore be super-dependent, hence the "bumbling sidekick" part. See, this is the result of the crappy hand Disney was dealt AND an unpleasable fanbase.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 21:51:54 GMT
Which was incompatible with what OT fans wanted. What, were they expecting the whole planet to be one big starship graveyard with nothing else? Actually, I'm pretty sure they starting taking swipes at Rey as soon as they saw she lived on a Sand planet and drove any kind of land speeder. He looked like Vader, even though we've ton plenty of other Sith who dress similarly and no one complained. Which would violate the existing lore of SW, another strike that offends everyone. Incompatible with how the PT did things. They wanted JUST the OT characters back, with any new characters delegated to minimal "bumbling sidekick" or "useless tagalong" roles so to not threaten the OT characters. Yeah, he should've been a 1-Note Stoic Badass who doesn't emote instead of showing any flaws. Of course, the tons and tons of new people who weren't invested in SW couldn't have been drawn just out of mere curiosity... Don't ask for the impossible. PT and ST fans are diametrically opposed, so doing something that had both PT and OT stuff was always impossible. The OT characters could never be portrayed exactly the way they were in the OT if new characters were ever going to be more than useless sidekicks, so having fully heroic ST leads and OT Heroes at full power was another impossibility because the OT characters would ALWAYS have utterly sabotaged the ST characters with their mere presence. Another impossibility. The OT leads were actually going to NOT be the stars of these movies. Which turned off OT fans. Go read the Expanded Universe Novels, do ANY of them have the OT losing in any new adventures or conflicts? Do we EVER get stories of the OT cast dying and passing their torch to any new characters? No, the OT cast are ALWAYS in the lead and the new characters are NEVER allowed to be epic heroes in their own right. Everything ALWAYS had to be under the shadow of the OT characters. None of it was incompatible or impossible. Why? Because you said it is? And that's supposed be true because...? So far you have offered no proof of any of your claims. Not even that link you posted. And your knowledge of SW is a joke. Every person on this board has exhibited more knowledge of SW than you. So your opinion has no credibility. You're just a blathering idiot. Making stuff like the PT is incompatible with what OT fans wants, making something like the OT is incompatible with what the PT fans want. Screwed either way. It's true because the OT wrote them as not needing any replacements and being capable of taking down the Empire on their own. Leave them that way, they deal with the First Order easily and there's no need for any stories or new leads who are having their own adventures. Just like how the EU was always all about the OT leads being in charge of everything and never daring to creating new lead characters.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 21:52:00 GMT
-That's your made up version of things. Truth is, you don't know exactly what happened. Eventually someone will spill the beans and we'll have a clearer story about how it fell apart. Maybe. A movie about Luke's bumbling sidekick going off to fight the Hutts, 30 years and that's the the best writers could come up with? That film would deserve to bomb like crazy. Like I said, Disney was dealt a s****y hand. If they'd bought out Star Wars back in the 80s and starting making sequels like in 1993 so the time gap wasn't so big they'd have more wiggle room. And they'd never have made the Prequels so the fandom wouldn't be so sour on the idea of Political Storylines or Equal Factions duking it out. As it is, the Prequels derailed a lot of the ST's growth room. No they weren't. They were dealt the best hand, and the only reason TFA didn't become #1 all time is because they screwed it up. They screwed it up further in TLJ. And episode IX will continue the box office drop off. The OT is already regarded as classical cinema and among the greatest films of all time. The ST will never achieve that.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 21:53:20 GMT
Don't ask for the impossible. Don't be an idiot by claiming something's impossible that you clearly can't prove is impossible. In fact you haven't even put up a good argument for it. He says that trailer made it look like there was something that PT fans would like, and then OT fans would like. PT and OT fans likes are diametrically opposed so making something both can enjoy is an impossibility given how the PT and OT split the fandom down the middle.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 21:54:01 GMT
-look at that, a semi concession! -I said nothing of the scenario you are describing. -Disney had so much to work with and they tied their own nuse by setting release dates ahead of having a story complete. They didn't allow for the creative process to happen, and so we got a rushed script with TFA. It just spiraled out of control with TLJ. Prequel fear just made them afraid of risk. So they took zero initially, and that mediocrity lead to the next guy subverting everything, which was the polar opposite and does complete disservice to fans. It's just an incredible shit storm of bad decisions. Whether you like it or not, the ST was going to be about new characters. For some reason the idea of Rey not being an independent heroine is disgusting to OT fans so in this scenario she must therefore be super-dependent, hence the "bumbling sidekick" part. See, this is the result of the crappy hand Disney was dealt AND an unpleasable fanbase. No one has ever said Rey's character should be a bumbling sidekick. Prove it or stop spamming this board with lying narratives.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 21:55:48 GMT
Maybe. A movie about Luke's bumbling sidekick going off to fight the Hutts, 30 years and that's the the best writers could come up with? That film would deserve to bomb like crazy. Like I said, Disney was dealt a s****y hand. If they'd bought out Star Wars back in the 80s and starting making sequels like in 1993 so the time gap wasn't so big they'd have more wiggle room. And they'd never have made the Prequels so the fandom wouldn't be so sour on the idea of Political Storylines or Equal Factions duking it out. As it is, the Prequels derailed a lot of the ST's growth room. No they weren't. They were dealt the best hand, An extremely intolerant fanbase who had 30 years of headcanon who were bound to complain about something, a Universe where a lot of possibilities weren't viable thanks to past failures, an aging OT cast the fans were DESPERATE to see again despite their age being a big hurdle because the thought of them NOT being in the forefront was insulting...that's a S*** hand. Like I said, no win scenario. No matter what Disney did they were going to get ripped into.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 21:57:11 GMT
Whether you like it or not, the ST was going to be about new characters. For some reason the idea of Rey not being an independent heroine is disgusting to OT fans so in this scenario she must therefore be super-dependent, hence the "bumbling sidekick" part. See, this is the result of the crappy hand Disney was dealt AND an unpleasable fanbase. No one has ever said Rey's character should be a bumbling sidekick. All those "She's too powerful and a Mary Sue!" posts say otherwise. Not wanting her to be an independent heroine means they want a bumbling sidekick.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 21:59:04 GMT
I got no problem pointing out its flaws and not treating it like the end-all-be-all, if that's what you mean. Except you haven't brought out any OT flaws. Lucas' constant revisionism writing, the characters being archetypes, not knowing anything about the Emperor, the inconsistencies between it and the PT, etc.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Apr 10, 2018 22:02:01 GMT
That's a ridiculous question and you (I hope, anyway) know it. But quite the opposite actually. The conflict isn't new at all! I resent the ST for simply reskinning the Empire and Rebels in order to basically make the exact same trilogy. And if they had there be an Anti-Republic Faction or Invaders from another Galaxy, they'd be accused of just re-skinning the Separatists and Republic from the Prequels.
No-Win Scenario.
if there were "Invaders from another Galaxy" (like the Dominium, The Shadows etc) how would that be like the Separatist movement, it would be something completely different never seen in the movies. How would that be a no win situation? How can you create a false dilemma when you yourself point out a third option? Non sequitur
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 10, 2018 22:05:08 GMT
Don't be an idiot by claiming something's impossible that you clearly can't prove is impossible. In fact you haven't even put up a good argument for it. He says that trailer made it look like there was something that PT fans would like, and then OT fans would like. PT and OT fans likes are diametrically opposed so making something both can enjoy is an impossibility given how the PT and OT split the fandom down the middle. Because it did. It's called pulling elements from different places and putting it together into something more than one group can like. SW is founded on it. Han Solo is like an old Western gunslinger. ObiWan is like a wise old samarai. Darth Vader is like a mystical cyborg. Get the picture? (I'll answer that for you. No you don't get it. The only thing you're mind can grasp and spew out of your mind is defamatory lies about the OT fanbase and their desires and motives and opinions. That, and the unsupported claim that there was no other way to do the sequel trilogy films - and poor Disney, they had the toughest hand and a no-win situation. It's still the same lie it was a week ago.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 22:08:20 GMT
And if they had there be an Anti-Republic Faction or Invaders from another Galaxy, they'd be accused of just re-skinning the Separatists and Republic from the Prequels.
No-Win Scenario.
if there were "Invaders from another Galaxy" (like the Dominium, The Shadows etc) how would that be like the Separatist movement, A force equal in power to the Republic waging war on it for control over the Galaxy. Same as the separatists.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 22:14:59 GMT
He says that trailer made it look like there was something that PT fans would like, and then OT fans would like. PT and OT fans likes are diametrically opposed so making something both can enjoy is an impossibility given how the PT and OT split the fandom down the middle. Because it did. It's called pulling elements from different places and putting it together into something more than one group can like. Too bad the stuff from the PT isn't compatible with how things were done in the OT. Otherwise OT fans wouldn't have been so disappointed with how the PT did things. I know my unpleasables when I see them. The second they see a big beautiful CGI Coruscant or big beautiful Jedi Temple with lots of students they'd be all "Oh God, this is just the Prequels all over again!" and walk out in the first 5 minutes. Include stuff from the PT, OT fans complain. Include stuff from the OT, OT fans still complain. Seriously, what's the point of trying to please an audience like that? How do you win? Best you give up on trying to please them and focus on your new audience who weren't out to hate the movie before it started.
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