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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 9, 2018 22:58:54 GMT
With the exception of Mask of the Phantasm, I really don’t think that the DC Animated Universe holds up very well. Why exactly are the shows set in that “universe” still held up to such a pedestal? What exactly is so special about them, other than the fact that they gave us Kevin Conroy as Batman and Mark Hamill as the Joker?
Batman: The Animated Series is an inconsistent show. Some episodes were solid, but others ranged from mediocre to downright lousy. The voice acting was pretty stiff in the early episodes and the animation was shoddy on many occasions. I would also say that Harley Quinn is one of the worst things to ever be incorporated into the DC universe, and I really don’t understand why she exists in the first place. While we’re at it, I would say that The New Batman Adventures and Batman Beyond are flat out atrocious. I don’t understand how anyone can stand those. TNBA just felt cringeworthy and meatless (and had too much Harley Quinn), while BB felt like it was trying too hard to seem “hip”, and the entire premise of a teenage Batman feels too much like Muppet Babies. They’re just embarrassing. The rest of the shows in the DCAU don’t annoy me as much as TNBA and BB, but they aren’t anything special either. Superman: The Animated Series is bland, JL/JLA is average at best, and Static Shock relied way too much on crossovers with other DC characters, in addition to some bizarre celebrity guest appearances. I can’t say I cared for Wonder Woman’s characterization in those shows either. What’s the deal? What reason do people have for continuing to sing praises for those shows, outside of nostalgia? |
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 9, 2018 23:11:21 GMT
It's more for the precedent those shows set. They showed what normal animation aimed at kids could be like when treated as something more all-encompassing.
The animation quality was really good for its time, as opposed to the much cheaper and lazier approach the Marvel Spider-Man and X-Men shows took (they just lifted designs right from the comics, always a bad idea. Batman TAS chose to redesign all the characters for animation first).
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Post by judgejosephdredd on Apr 9, 2018 23:28:02 GMT
When it was at its best the DCAU raised the bar for animated programming marketed for adolescent viewers and actually added to the existing DC universe mythology. Not too many animated programs off of the top of my head carry the same grit, edge, artistic realism, and intensity of Batman: The Animated Series, especially coming from the United States. No, the DCAU as a whole was definitely not perfect - I feel Bane was severely underused, they jumped the shark with Mr. Freeze after Sub Zero, they could've done a lot more with Doomsday, wish Jason Todd had showed up, and I have mixed thoughts on Terry McGinnis actually being a clone of Bruce Wayne the whole time - but when things were good, they were really, really good and you can forgive the shortcomings.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 10, 2018 13:37:30 GMT
With the exception of Mask of the Phantasm, I really don’t think that the DC Animated Universe holds up very well. Why exactly are the shows set in that “universe” still held up to such a pedestal? What exactly is so special about them, other than the fact that they gave us Kevin Conroy as Batman and Mark Hamill as the Joker?
Batman: The Animated Series is an inconsistent show. Some episodes were solid, but others ranged from mediocre to downright lousy. The voice acting was pretty stiff in the early episodes and the animation was shoddy on many occasions. I would also say that Harley Quinn is one of the worst things to ever be incorporated into the DC universe, and I really don’t understand why she exists in the first place. While we’re at it, I would say that The New Batman Adventures and Batman Beyond are flat out atrocious. I don’t understand how anyone can stand those. TNBA just felt cringeworthy and meatless (and had too much Harley Quinn), while BB felt like it was trying too hard to seem “hip”, and the entire premise of a teenage Batman feels too much like Muppet Babies. They’re just embarrassing. The rest of the shows in the DCAU don’t annoy me as much as TNBA and BB, but they aren’t anything special either. Superman: The Animated Series is bland, JL/JLA is average at best, and Static Shock relied way too much on crossovers with other DC characters, in addition to some bizarre celebrity guest appearances. I can’t say I cared for Wonder Woman’s characterization in those shows either. What’s the deal? What reason do people have for continuing to sing praises for those shows, outside of nostalgia? To be honest, the deal is people feel the exact opposite of what you said. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 10, 2018 18:13:43 GMT
With the exception of Mask of the Phantasm, I really don’t think that the DC Animated Universe holds up very well. Why exactly are the shows set in that “universe” still held up to such a pedestal? What exactly is so special about them, other than the fact that they gave us Kevin Conroy as Batman and Mark Hamill as the Joker?
Batman: The Animated Series is an inconsistent show. Some episodes were solid, but others ranged from mediocre to downright lousy. The voice acting was pretty stiff in the early episodes and the animation was shoddy on many occasions. I would also say that Harley Quinn is one of the worst things to ever be incorporated into the DC universe, and I really don’t understand why she exists in the first place. While we’re at it, I would say that The New Batman Adventures and Batman Beyond are flat out atrocious. I don’t understand how anyone can stand those. TNBA just felt cringeworthy and meatless (and had too much Harley Quinn), while BB felt like it was trying too hard to seem “hip”, and the entire premise of a teenage Batman feels too much like Muppet Babies. They’re just embarrassing. The rest of the shows in the DCAU don’t annoy me as much as TNBA and BB, but they aren’t anything special either. Superman: The Animated Series is bland, JL/JLA is average at best, and Static Shock relied way too much on crossovers with other DC characters, in addition to some bizarre celebrity guest appearances. I can’t say I cared for Wonder Woman’s characterization in those shows either. What’s the deal? What reason do people have for continuing to sing praises for those shows, outside of nostalgia? To be honest, the deal is people feel the exact opposite of what you said. Why do they feel that way? I’m not saying they have no right to that opinion, but why is it the case? Do people honestly find Harley Quinn’s backstory to be compelling, as opposed to lazy and misogynistic? |
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Post by kleinreturns on Apr 10, 2018 18:32:05 GMT
Interesting.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 10, 2018 19:45:47 GMT
More than solid, Batman the animated series was an Emmy award winning show. Sure there were some stinkers (I will never defend I've Got Batman in My Basement), but at its best, the show phenomenal. Feat of Clay, Two-Face, It's Never Too Late, Heart of Ice, Robin's Reckoning, and The Demon's Quest just to name a few are all brilliant. The voice acting was show stealing. Those actors defined the characters not just for that generation, but for some of the future generations. After all, almost nobody really brings up The Batman when discussing the quintessential versions of the characters.
And apart from a few off-character models, the animation was smooth and immediately caught the eye. Casual audiences immediately could tell what show they were watching. It was as recognizable to Batman as the yellow characters are to the Simpsons. The backgrounds painted on black paper (something which remains unique to BTAS) perfectly fit and enhanced the tone and atmosphere of the show. It was dark, gloomy, gritty, and ground, yet never afraid to be fantastical.
Harley exists to give Joker a more unique, striking mook. Rather than some big tough guy in drabby colors, she's a smaller colorful energetic character. Harley quickly became both a fan and creator favorite and transcended the animated series for those reasons and more, which, yes, does include her backstory.
TNBA, while admittedly not as good as its predecessor, is far from atrocious. The change in animation style allowed for simpler designs leading to more on-character models and even smoother animation. Always a plus. And far from meatless, TNBA had captivating episodes such as Sins of the Father, Girls Night Out, Legends of the Dark Knight, Old Wounds, Over the Edge, and Mad Love.
I fail to see how Batman Beyond would feel like the Muppet Babies, as that show was built on the characters using their imagination to have make-believe adventures, where as BB was an action packed show that followed a broken down Bruce Wayne training the next generation of heroes. And again, it contained some episodes that were outstanding in their characters and stories: Rebirth, Meltdown, Disappearing Inque, and The Call. And of course, this is the show that led to the much lauded Return of the Joker which, up until The Dark Knight, fans referred to as the definitive Joker movie.
Superman: the Animated Series did for Clark what BTAS did for Bruce. It made them fully rounded characters with a great supporting cast. Lois, Jimmy, Emil Hamilton, and Lex Luthor are all brought to life not just by the story telling and character driven plots, but by their incredible voice actors. The action was solid. Superman really got to show off all his powers, not just his super strength and flight. The action is thrilling, and I don't think the show's sound design gets enough credit for how good it was.
While BTAS gave birth to the DCAU, STAS opened it up. It brought in The Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, and of course, the New Gods. It's trilogy of New Gods two-parters (Apokolips, Now; Little Girl Lost; and Legacy) are some of the best episodes, not just of STAS, but the entire DCAU. And it's crossover episodes with Batman are all excellent. In only 90 minutes, World's Finest told a much better story than Batman vs Superman in two and a half hours.
And all of this leads to Justice League. The culmination of the entire DCAU. Rather than average, the creators pushed themselves with what they could do. Not only were the stories all two-parters (what other series, animated or live action, did the same?), but the fights scenes were bigger. More characters, more action. And just as with all the previous shows, it was the personalities of the characters, both heroes and villains, that drove the stories. It wasn't just good and evil, they had motivations beyond that. Justice League Unlimited then took all those fleshed out characters and dropped them into some long term story arcs. Story threads started in one episode would continue throughout others as they built to big season finales.
I never watched Static Shock so I can't comment on its quality. But I did enjoy seeing him cross over onto the JLU in The Once and Future Thing, which brought characters from four shows together: Batman, Batman Beyond, JLU, and Static Shock.
It's incorrect to assume nostalgia. After all, there are plenty of younger fans of those shows who didn't grow up on them. Nostalgia is enjoying something because we liked it in the past. Fans of the DCAU enjoy the shows, not because of how they made us feel, but because of how they still make us feel.
These are series I will continue to enjoy for many years to come.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 10, 2018 20:06:29 GMT
Mad Love and Girls Night Out are definitely what I’d call “meatless”. Mad Love in particular is a story that absolutely infuriates me the more I think about it. I don’t really consider myself a feminist or anything, but Harley Quinn’s backstory is incredibly sexist. The idea of a a professional psychiatrist being stupid enough to fall in love with a blatant psychopath based on a bunch of phony sob stories is just awful writing. It’s even worse in the original comic (which precedes the animated version of the story), where it’s implied that all it takes to get a PhD is screwing your college professors.
While we’re at it, I’d say that Harley Quinn ruins the Joker as well. The Joker isn’t supposed to be some charming Ted Bundy-character who manipulates women into falling in love with him. He’s too unpredictable for that. I also hate the idea of having the Joker be anything other than asexual. It makes him come across as a rapist.
As far as Batman Beyond is concerned, the reason I say that the show is like Muppet Babies is because the entire reason it exists is so that we can have a teenage Batman, which is an idea I absolutely loathe. I hate superhero stories that take place in high school in general, so why would BB appeal to me? I also do not care for Return of the Joker. I think the entire idea behind the movie is stupid. Seriously, the Joker demonically possesses Tim Drake? Not to mention that the whole thing with the Joker torturing Tim Drake not only felt really forced on the count of the fact that it was never mentioned before or since, but it also comes across as a desperate attempt to show how cool and edgy they are.
That’s my two cents.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 10, 2018 20:46:10 GMT
Considering both Mad Love and Girls Night Out fleshed out the characters, that's not meatless at all. That's the exact opposite. Mad Love dove into Harley's backstory to answer all the questions fans had about her.
I'll admit, I never cared for the comic version of Mad Love. I find the streamlined version in the TNBA to be a much better telling. Maybe I'd feel it was awful writing if real women didn't fall in love with death row inmates all the time, but I have no problem accepting in fiction what happens in reality.
But I have no issue with Joker manipulating her. After all, escape is always his objective in Arkham. So he's really not that unpredictable. I have no issue with the Joker being a rapist either. He's a thieving, abusive, mass murderer. He's a monster. Rape is not beneath him. Not to mention, Alan Moore touched on that in The Killing Joke years earlier. Being asexual would just make him even more predictable.
Ahh, but see then you're not the target audience. It'd be like me asking why I should like West World when I hate stories set in the old west and then wondering why it has fans.
Besides, while it did exist purely for a teenage Batman, it didn't just go with a teenage Bruce. Instead, it followed a different Batman with his own personality and motives and even paid off some stories from BTAS through both Bruce and Terry. Much like Buffy the Vampire Slayer (which the writers have pointed out as an influence), it used the "horrors" of high school to tell fantastic stories and help the characters grow.
Before or since? Bruce never talked about The Joker in Batman Beyond at all, so there'd be no reason for it to be mentioned before. And as for since, ROTJ was the final cap of the Batman Beyond series, so there'd be no way for the series to mention it again.
No more than any other PG-13 movie.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 10, 2018 21:31:37 GMT
Regarding the situation in TKJ, didn’t Alan Moore deny that the Joker raped Barbara? I suppose if we’re talking about the animated adaptation of TKJ, he probably did rape her (according to that scene with the prostitues anyway), but it doesnt seem like that’s something Alan Moore agrees with.
Besides, making a bad guy a rapist is usually just a really tasteless and lazy way of establishing that they’re evil. I don’t know if that makes me sound like an “SJW” or whatever, but rape almost always comes across as forced and pointless in a story.
The bottom line is that we already know that the Joker is an irredeemable bastard. He doesn’t need to take part in sexual assault and domestic violence in order to get that point across. TDK certainly never implied that about the Joker, unless you consider him calling Rachel “beautiful” to be an example.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 10, 2018 22:26:54 GMT
Oh, don't worry. I never use that as a derogatory term. And I completely understand rape coming across as forced and pointless.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 10, 2018 22:44:24 GMT
Oh, don't worry. I never use that as a derogatory term. And I completely understand rape coming across as forced and pointless. Okay. Just to be clear, I’m not bashing people for loving the DCAU, or at the very least, that’s not what I’m trying to do. I’ve just always found the passionate praise for it to be a little confusing. It’s not that it’s all bad, it’s just that I don’t get why people in the past have insisted that someone like Bruce Timm should spearhead the DC films. Maybe it’s just because TKJ and Batman & Harley Quinn were movies I greatly disliked. For what it’s worth, I do think that Mask of the Phantasm is a genuinely good movie, and I’d be lying if I said that I don’t imagine Mark Hamill’s voice when I’m reading a comic with the Joker. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 10, 2018 22:50:20 GMT
Timm's lost his touch over time, it appears.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 10, 2018 22:57:12 GMT
Oh, don't worry. I never use that as a derogatory term. And I completely understand rape coming across as forced and pointless. Okay. Just to be clear, I’m not bashing people for loving the DCAU, or at the very least, that’s not what I’m trying to do. I’ve just always found the passionate praise for it to be a little confusing. It’s not that it’s all bad, it’s just that I don’t get why people in the past have insisted that someone like Bruce Timm should spearhead the DC films. Maybe it’s just because TKJ and Batman & Harley Quinn were movies I greatly disliked. For what it’s worth, I do think that Mask of the Phantasm is a genuinely good movie, and I’d be lying if I said that I don’t imagine Mark Hamill’s voice when I’m reading a comic with the Joker. Make no mistake, I have absolutely no intention to see Batman & Harley based on the reviews I've read. It really sounds horrendous in a fan-fic sort of way. That's a movie I can't defend. But that being said, while I can't speak for everyone, I, at least, hope I've provided some insight into why I did and still continue to enjoy the DCAU, particularly the four main series. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 10, 2018 23:03:20 GMT
Okay. Just to be clear, I’m not bashing people for loving the DCAU, or at the very least, that’s not what I’m trying to do. I’ve just always found the passionate praise for it to be a little confusing. It’s not that it’s all bad, it’s just that I don’t get why people in the past have insisted that someone like Bruce Timm should spearhead the DC films. Maybe it’s just because TKJ and Batman & Harley Quinn were movies I greatly disliked. For what it’s worth, I do think that Mask of the Phantasm is a genuinely good movie, and I’d be lying if I said that I don’t imagine Mark Hamill’s voice when I’m reading a comic with the Joker. Make no mistake, I have absolutely no intention to see Batman & Harley based on the reviews I've read. It really sounds horrendous in a fan-fic sort of way. That's a movie I can't defend. But that being said, while I can't speak for everyone, I, at least, hope I've provided some insight into why I did and still continue to enjoy the DCAU, particularly the four main series. I think you’ve provided some decent insight into why a lot of people still treasure the DCAU. That being said, I might also need to rewatch some of these shows to get an even better idea of why people love them so much. It has been a while since I’ve watched S:TAS, now that I think about it. |
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Apr 10, 2018 23:18:42 GMT
Timm's lost his touch over time, it appears. He definitely did with The Killing Joke. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 6:42:05 GMT
'Cause unlike most movies in the DCEU they are actually good and entertaining. I am yet to see a single live action DC movie I would say is as good as 'Under the Red Hood', 'Assault On Arkham', 'Mask of Phantasm','Bad Blood', 'Mystery of the Batwoman', 'Sub Zero' or even 'Superman/ Batman: Apocalypse' and 'Superman: Unbound.' That is not to say they have all been perfect 'cause there have been some bad ones but the good outweighs the bad and one of the things that makes them good is they actually resemble the source material they are based on. The same can't be said about a lot of Live Action DC movies especially 'The Dark Knight Trilogy' and a lot of DC fans I know think the animated movies and the 'Arkham' games are the best on screen adaptions of DC superheroes and villains. 
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2018 6:42:38 GMT
Because the DCAU is amazing. Only a few other superhero cartoons are on the same level of quality as the DCAU. Solid casting, great animation, and great storytelling are all present. There is clear passion behind the shows and movies. Not everything about it is perfect, but it darn well deserves every ounce of praise it gets.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Apr 11, 2018 13:07:09 GMT
Timm's lost his touch over time, it appears. I'd say the same thing happened to him that happened to George Lucas. Too much creative freedom with no oversight and not enough collaboration. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 11, 2018 13:29:15 GMT
Timm's lost his touch over time, it appears. I'd say the same thing happened to him that happened to George Lucas. Too much creative freedom with no oversight and not enough collaboration. "Gods and Monsters" was good, but he had Alan Burnett helping him with that.
Frankly, the writing for the DCAU started to go downhill with Justice League, when Paul Dini wasn't involved and they stopped using Shirley Walker for music.
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