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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 11, 2018 19:55:44 GMT
I'd say the same thing happened to him that happened to George Lucas. Too much creative freedom with no oversight and not enough collaboration. "Gods and Monsters" was good, but he had Alan Burnett helping him with that.
Frankly, the writing for the DCAU started to go downhill with Justice League, when Paul Dini wasn't involved and they stopped using Shirley Walker for music.
was garbage. It didn’t take advantage of its premise at all. It was just crap. |
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Post by scabab on Apr 11, 2018 20:47:53 GMT
I really miss the DCAU to be honest.
Batman was legendary. Batman Beyond was pretty good too but it didn't really have the villains that it's prequel, I only even remember that main villain who was the green skeleton thing.
Superman was decent. Justice League was very good too but it wasn't quite as good when it became Justice League Unlimited.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 13, 2018 1:30:10 GMT
Regarding the situation in TKJ, didn’t Alan Moore deny that the Joker raped Barbara? I suppose if we’re talking about the animated adaptation of TKJ, he probably did rape her (according to that scene with the prostitues anyway), but it doesnt seem like that’s something Alan Moore agrees with. Besides, making a bad guy a rapist is usually just a really tasteless and lazy way of establishing that they’re evil. I don’t know if that makes me sound like an “SJW” or whatever, but rape almost always comes across as forced and pointless in a story. The bottom line is that we already know that the Joker is an irredeemable bastard. He doesn’t need to take part in sexual assault and domestic violence in order to get that point across. TDK certainly never implied that about the Joker, unless you consider him calling Rachel “beautiful” to be an example. "What? Joker pulled the intestines out of this woman, jumped roped with them, then carved a bedtime story on her chest? And she's still alive? That's messed up." "What Joker gassed an entire town full of people and made them beat each other close to death? Wow he's bad news." "What? The Joker raped a woman? That's just forced and pointless in the story." ... |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 13, 2018 1:36:08 GMT
Regarding the situation in TKJ, didn’t Alan Moore deny that the Joker raped Barbara? I suppose if we’re talking about the animated adaptation of TKJ, he probably did rape her (according to that scene with the prostitues anyway), but it doesnt seem like that’s something Alan Moore agrees with. Besides, making a bad guy a rapist is usually just a really tasteless and lazy way of establishing that they’re evil. I don’t know if that makes me sound like an “SJW” or whatever, but rape almost always comes across as forced and pointless in a story. The bottom line is that we already know that the Joker is an irredeemable bastard. He doesn’t need to take part in sexual assault and domestic violence in order to get that point across. TDK certainly never implied that about the Joker, unless you consider him calling Rachel “beautiful” to be an example. "What? Joker pulled the intestines out of this woman, jumped roped with them, then carved a bedtime story on her chest? And she's still alive? That's messed up." "What Joker gassed an entire town full of people and made them beat each other close to death? Wow he's bad news." "What? The Joker raped a woman? That's just forced and pointless in the story." ... See, the thing is, the Joker being a mass murderer has always been a part of his character. The Joker being a rapist? Not so much. Rape almost never works in a story. That’s not to say it can’t work, but the only possible reason anyone would possibly have for making the Joker a rapist would be for shock value. Him being a murderer actually drives the plot of most stories. Him being a rapist doesn’t drive anything. It’s just shock value that isn’t even shocking anymore. Plus, it pisses people off, and no, I’m not just talking about feminists. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 13, 2018 1:51:02 GMT
"What? Joker pulled the intestines out of this woman, jumped roped with them, then carved a bedtime story on her chest? And she's still alive? That's messed up." "What Joker gassed an entire town full of people and made them beat each other close to death? Wow he's bad news." "What? The Joker raped a woman? That's just forced and pointless in the story." ... See, the thing is, the Joker being a mass murderer has always been a part of his character. The Joker being a rapist? Not so much. Rape almost never works in a story. That’s not to say it can’t work, but the only possible reason anyone would possibly have for making the Joker a rapist would be for shock value. Him being a murderer actually drives the plot of most stories. Him being a rapist doesn’t drive anything. It’s just shock value that isn’t even shocking anymore. Plus, it pisses people off, and no, I’m not just talking about feminists. The Joker is not just a mass murderer. He's also a manipulator and a dominator. Harley Quinn is the manifestation of that. He made her into a thing. Took away what made her a person. Rape is a form of torture that breaks a person. But it is kind of funny that adding a sexual component to torture is where some people draw the line in their psychopaths. You can cut all a person's fingers and toes off, but once you go near a person's "private parts" you are then a monster... Also, it is suppose to piss people off. That's the point. You aren't suppose to like the Joker. He's not suppose to be your favorite villain. Which sounds perverse as it is. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 13, 2018 2:02:24 GMT
See, the thing is, the Joker being a mass murderer has always been a part of his character. The Joker being a rapist? Not so much. Rape almost never works in a story. That’s not to say it can’t work, but the only possible reason anyone would possibly have for making the Joker a rapist would be for shock value. Him being a murderer actually drives the plot of most stories. Him being a rapist doesn’t drive anything. It’s just shock value that isn’t even shocking anymore. Plus, it pisses people off, and no, I’m not just talking about feminists. The Joker is not just a mass murderer. He's also a manipulator and a dominator. Harley Quinn is the manifestation of that. He made her into a thing. Took away what made her a person. Rape is a form of torture that breaks a person. But it is kind of funny that adding a sexual component to torture is where some people draw the line in their psychopaths. You can cut all a person's fingers and toes off, but once you go near a person's "private parts" you are then a monster... Also, it is suppose to piss people off. That's the point. You aren't suppose to like the Joker. He's not suppose to be your favorite villain. Which sounds perverse as it is. Him being a manipulator in the sense that he’s a Ted Bundy-esque individual who charms young women into entering abusive relationships with him had certainly never been part of his character until B:TAS. Seriously, why should that even be part of the Joker’s character? It doesn’t make him more menacing or cunning. There’s nothing complex or shocking about him and Harley Quinn. It just makes him seem like every other psychopath in fiction. It’s just too predictable. I realize that making a bad guy a mass murderer is also predictable, but at least in that case, the Joker has unique ways of going about it. There’s no way to be creative with writing your bad guy as a rapist or a domestic abuser. Also, what do you mean it’s supposed to piss people off? It’s supposed to provoke an angry reaction in people, to the point where they denounce comics as being misogynistic? |
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 13, 2018 11:40:07 GMT
"Gods and Monsters" was good, but he had Alan Burnett helping him with that.
Frankly, the writing for the DCAU started to go downhill with Justice League, when Paul Dini wasn't involved and they stopped using Shirley Walker for music.
was garbage. It didn’t take advantage of its premise at all. It was just crap. Admittedly, they didn't go far enough. But that sort of thing requires a continuing series, not one relatively short movie...and yes, I'll admit the villain didn't really have much real meat to him.
It did inspire me though, I started a writing project about 2 years ago to do the same thing with Marvel and we're still going on strong. We made a Universe where Dr Doom became Iron Man, Matt Murdock is the Kingpin, Magneto is basically the stand-in for Captain America, etc. It's pretty fun.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Apr 13, 2018 11:59:13 GMT
Like @deblovesbeccy said, they're entertaining. Hell some of the animated films are better than most of the current live action movies.
Damn shame what happened to Teen Titans. Seriously GO! is an abomination.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 13, 2018 12:03:35 GMT
Timm's lost his touch over time, it appears. He definitely did with The Killing Joke. Well, it's also that Killing Joke really isn't all THAT great a story to begin with. Even Alan Moore regrets writing it. It might have shocked readers 30 years ago, but it's less impactful today than it was back then. And the misogynistic streak in it is far more apparent. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 13, 2018 13:05:04 GMT
The Joker is not just a mass murderer. He's also a manipulator and a dominator. Harley Quinn is the manifestation of that. He made her into a thing. Took away what made her a person. Rape is a form of torture that breaks a person. But it is kind of funny that adding a sexual component to torture is where some people draw the line in their psychopaths. You can cut all a person's fingers and toes off, but once you go near a person's "private parts" you are then a monster... Also, it is suppose to piss people off. That's the point. You aren't suppose to like the Joker. He's not suppose to be your favorite villain. Which sounds perverse as it is. Him being a manipulator in the sense that he’s a Ted Bundy-esque individual who charms young women into entering abusive relationships with him had certainly never been part of his character until B:TAS. Seriously, why should that even be part of the Joker’s character? It doesn’t make him more menacing or cunning. There’s nothing complex or shocking about him and Harley Quinn. It just makes him seem like every other psychopath in fiction. It’s just too predictable. I realize that making a bad guy a mass murderer is also predictable, but at least in that case, the Joker has unique ways of going about it. There’s no way to be creative with writing your bad guy as a rapist or a domestic abuser. Also, what do you mean it’s supposed to piss people off? It’s supposed to provoke an angry reaction in people, to the point where they denounce comics as being misogynistic? A lot of things had never been a part of the character until something. How many times have we seen him with a skin mask on until he started wearing the skin mask? It's unique to that one person. Or maybe that's why you'd think it was misogynistic. If he went around on a rape spree of both genders, would you see it as misogynistic? I see Joker as a character that wouldn't get any kind of sexual thrill out of it. Like he's detached himself from that way of thinking. He sees it as another way to ruin a persons day. It's suppose to make you not like or cheer for that crazy villain that is going around doing crazy crap to people. He's not doing any of that stuff because he has a cause like a Magneto. He's doing it because he thinks it's funny. Yet, people love this character. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 13, 2018 17:11:16 GMT
Him being a manipulator in the sense that he’s a Ted Bundy-esque individual who charms young women into entering abusive relationships with him had certainly never been part of his character until B:TAS. Seriously, why should that even be part of the Joker’s character? It doesn’t make him more menacing or cunning. There’s nothing complex or shocking about him and Harley Quinn. It just makes him seem like every other psychopath in fiction. It’s just too predictable. I realize that making a bad guy a mass murderer is also predictable, but at least in that case, the Joker has unique ways of going about it. There’s no way to be creative with writing your bad guy as a rapist or a domestic abuser. Also, what do you mean it’s supposed to piss people off? It’s supposed to provoke an angry reaction in people, to the point where they denounce comics as being misogynistic? A lot of things had never been a part of the character until something. How many times have we seen him with a skin mask on until he started wearing the skin mask? It's unique to that one person. Or maybe that's why you'd think it was misogynistic. If he went around on a rape spree of both genders, would you see it as misogynistic? I see Joker as a character that wouldn't get any kind of sexual thrill out of it. Like he's detached himself from that way of thinking. He sees it as another way to ruin a persons day. It's suppose to make you not like or cheer for that crazy villain that is going around doing crazy crap to people. He's not doing any of that stuff because he has a cause like a Magneto. He's doing it because he thinks it's funny. Yet, people love this character. I think the skin mask is pretty stupid too. Anyway, I can’t recall anything outside of the New 52 comics and Gotham going with that. If the Joker went around raping both genders, I would be less likely to see it as misogynistic specifically, but it would still be pretty a pretty lazy trope to rely on. Besides, if the Joker doesn’t get a sexual thrill out of rape, why would he do it in the first place? There are countless other more creative ways for him to ruin a person’s life. No one ever said that the Joker is some noble anti-villain. Of course he’s an irredeemable psychopath. That’s partly what makes him such a great villain, but that doesn’t mean that they have to resort to making him a rapist, or a two-dimensional abusive boyfriend. It’s just too predictable. Again, while being a mass murderer is also technically predictable, it at least allows for more creativity in terms of the methods that he uses to kill people. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2018 8:00:01 GMT
Like @deblovesbeccy said, they're entertaining. Hell some of the animated films are better than most of the current live action movies. Damn shame what happened to Teen Titans. Seriously GO! is an abomination. 
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 14, 2018 12:21:45 GMT
The last time they did the Death and Return of Superman animated, it wasn't that good. Here's hoping this version is better.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 14, 2018 13:57:19 GMT
A lot of things had never been a part of the character until something. How many times have we seen him with a skin mask on until he started wearing the skin mask? It's unique to that one person. Or maybe that's why you'd think it was misogynistic. If he went around on a rape spree of both genders, would you see it as misogynistic? I see Joker as a character that wouldn't get any kind of sexual thrill out of it. Like he's detached himself from that way of thinking. He sees it as another way to ruin a persons day. It's suppose to make you not like or cheer for that crazy villain that is going around doing crazy crap to people. He's not doing any of that stuff because he has a cause like a Magneto. He's doing it because he thinks it's funny. Yet, people love this character. I think the skin mask is pretty stupid too. Anyway, I can’t recall anything outside of the New 52 comics and Gotham going with that. If the Joker went around raping both genders, I would be less likely to see it as misogynistic specifically, but it would still be pretty a pretty lazy trope to rely on. Besides, if the Joker doesn’t get a sexual thrill out of rape, why would he do it in the first place? There are countless other more creative ways for him to ruin a person’s life. No one ever said that the Joker is some noble anti-villain. Of course he’s an irredeemable psychopath. That’s partly what makes him such a great villain, but that doesn’t mean that they have to resort to making him a rapist, or a two-dimensional abusive boyfriend. It’s just too predictable. Again, while being a mass murderer is also technically predictable, it at least allows for more creativity in terms of the methods that he uses to kill people. Because rape is an act of terror that could ruin a person forever. Probably the highest form. The person doesn't have to get a sexual thrill out of it, just the knowledge of what it is doing to the other person. The Joker is an all around terrorist. If he can do something that can screw with someone, he'll do it. And he isn't a boyfriend at all. That relationship is totally one-sided. Again Harley is a thing to him. And it's not the act that is the main point, but how you use it. Just like you say, "allows for more creativity in terms of the methods that he uses". |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 14, 2018 23:01:14 GMT
I think the skin mask is pretty stupid too. Anyway, I can’t recall anything outside of the New 52 comics and Gotham going with that. If the Joker went around raping both genders, I would be less likely to see it as misogynistic specifically, but it would still be pretty a pretty lazy trope to rely on. Besides, if the Joker doesn’t get a sexual thrill out of rape, why would he do it in the first place? There are countless other more creative ways for him to ruin a person’s life. No one ever said that the Joker is some noble anti-villain. Of course he’s an irredeemable psychopath. That’s partly what makes him such a great villain, but that doesn’t mean that they have to resort to making him a rapist, or a two-dimensional abusive boyfriend. It’s just too predictable. Again, while being a mass murderer is also technically predictable, it at least allows for more creativity in terms of the methods that he uses to kill people. Because rape is an act of terror that could ruin a person forever. Probably the highest form. The person doesn't have to get a sexual thrill out of it, just the knowledge of what it is doing to the other person. The Joker is an all around terrorist. If he can do something that can screw with someone, he'll do it. And he isn't a boyfriend at all. That relationship is totally one-sided. Again Harley is a thing to him. And it's not the act that is the main point, but how you use it. Just like you say, "allows for more creativity in terms of the methods that he uses". If that’s the case, why didn’t he rape Commissioner Gordon in TKJ? His entire goal in that story was to drive him mad, so wouldn’t raping him be an effective way to do that? I never claimed that the Joker actually loves Harley, but you don’t have to “love” someone in order to be in a relationship with them. Just ask any real life victims of abusive relationships. The implication has always been that the Joker and Harley are supposedly in a relationship, however twisted it may be. Besides, I don’t see what’s so creative about rape, or beating up a woman who’s hopelessly in love with you. Those are pretty stock bad guy tropes that are pretty self-explanatory. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 14, 2018 23:07:21 GMT
Because rape is an act of terror that could ruin a person forever. Probably the highest form. The person doesn't have to get a sexual thrill out of it, just the knowledge of what it is doing to the other person. The Joker is an all around terrorist. If he can do something that can screw with someone, he'll do it. And he isn't a boyfriend at all. That relationship is totally one-sided. Again Harley is a thing to him. And it's not the act that is the main point, but how you use it. Just like you say, "allows for more creativity in terms of the methods that he uses". If that’s the case, why didn’t he rape Commissioner Gordon in TKJ? The bigger question about TKJ is where Joker got an army of baby-faced midgets to do his bidding. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 15, 2018 3:00:38 GMT
Because rape is an act of terror that could ruin a person forever. Probably the highest form. The person doesn't have to get a sexual thrill out of it, just the knowledge of what it is doing to the other person. The Joker is an all around terrorist. If he can do something that can screw with someone, he'll do it. And he isn't a boyfriend at all. That relationship is totally one-sided. Again Harley is a thing to him. And it's not the act that is the main point, but how you use it. Just like you say, "allows for more creativity in terms of the methods that he uses". If that’s the case, why didn’t he rape Commissioner Gordon in TKJ? His entire goal in that story was to drive him mad, so wouldn’t raping him be an effective way to do that? I never claimed that the Joker actually loves Harley, but you don’t have to “love” someone in order to be in a relationship with them. Just ask any real life victims of abusive relationships. The implication has always been that the Joker and Harley are supposedly in a relationship, however twisted it may be. Besides, I don’t see what’s so creative about rape, or beating up a woman who’s hopelessly in love with you. Those are pretty stock bad guy tropes that are pretty self-explanatory. He already had a way: his daughter. Also, he doesn't have to do it every time. His relationship to Harley goes as far as groupie/henchwoman. That's why Joker is the psycho villain. He sees what's so creative about it. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Apr 15, 2018 3:47:29 GMT
If that’s the case, why didn’t he rape Commissioner Gordon in TKJ? His entire goal in that story was to drive him mad, so wouldn’t raping him be an effective way to do that? I never claimed that the Joker actually loves Harley, but you don’t have to “love” someone in order to be in a relationship with them. Just ask any real life victims of abusive relationships. The implication has always been that the Joker and Harley are supposedly in a relationship, however twisted it may be. Besides, I don’t see what’s so creative about rape, or beating up a woman who’s hopelessly in love with you. Those are pretty stock bad guy tropes that are pretty self-explanatory. He already had a way: his daughter. Also, he doesn't have to do it every time. His relationship to Harley goes as far as groupie/henchwoman. That's why Joker is the psycho villain. He sees what's so creative about it. Apart from Alan Moore denying that the Joker raped Barbara, why not rape Jim Gordon as well? His goal was to traumatize him as much as possible, so having him and his daughter both getting raped would probably do just that. I seem to to recall TAS somewhat implying that the Joker and Harley were sexually involved (as much as you could imply that stuff for a kid’s show anyway). I really don’t see how any writer could somehow have a bad guy being creative about raping people. |
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 15, 2018 12:10:29 GMT
He already had a way: his daughter. Also, he doesn't have to do it every time. His relationship to Harley goes as far as groupie/henchwoman. That's why Joker is the psycho villain. He sees what's so creative about it. Apart from Alan Moore denying that the Joker raped Barbara, why not rape Jim Gordon as well? His goal was to traumatize him as much as possible, so having him and his daughter both getting raped would probably do just that. I seem to to recall TAS somewhat implying that the Joker and Harley were sexually involved (as much as you could imply that stuff for a kid’s show anyway). I really don’t see how any writer could somehow have a bad guy being creative about raping people. Given how generally messed up Gordon was throughout the story, it's fully possible Joker DID rape him. |
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