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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 12:12:08 GMT
The one doing the lying and self-deception is you, EVERY time Rey or Finn showed they had ANY skill whatsoever it just got derided. Tell me, what skills are you actually OKAY with that they had? Like I thought, you can't admit you'd be happy with Rey and Finn being good at anything.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 12, 2018 12:31:43 GMT
Like I thought, you can't admit you'd be happy with Rey and Finn being good at anything. I already told you some concise examples of how both could. But you don't listen to people's answers. And you don't take people's opinions at face value. So give me one good reason why I should restate them to you and elaborate on them now.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 12:39:02 GMT
Like I thought, you can't admit you'd be happy with Rey and Finn being good at anything. I already told you some concise examples of how both could. No, you made mention of how Rey might've worked out as some lowlife who Han rescues because she's too incompetent to get out of that life on her own and somehow she's a good pilot and then Leia randomly sends her off on missions against their new enemy (although, having a new enemy ruins the ending of ROTJ anyways) with no mention of her being good at anything and nothing about Finn except being some bland generic stoic badass type. If even that.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 12, 2018 13:30:13 GMT
I don't think fans resented the ST character taking over from the OT characters. A lot of us wanted and expected to see the torch passed. I just don't how that's possible without pissing someone off. This happened before with Star Trek, but they an easier time of it because the Original show didn't have a conclusive ending unlike the OT's "Happily Ever After" ending. And they wanted the new characters to take the forefront ASAP, hopefully within 1 movie. There's a difference between a few people inevitably being pissed off and a lot of people disliking or hating the decisions that were made. My impression from the fans was that the ST characters taking over from the OT ones was not one of the main reasons why many of them disliked how these characters were handled.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 12, 2018 17:22:44 GMT
I already told you some concise examples of how both could. No, you made mention of how Rey might've worked out as some lowlife who Han rescues because she's too incompetent to get out of that life on her own and somehow she's a good pilot and then Leia randomly sends her off on missions against their new enemy (although, having a new enemy ruins the ending of ROTJ anyways) with no mention of her being good at anything and nothing about Finn except being some bland generic stoic badass type. If even that. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I said Rey was already an experienced pilot that Han recruited for her skills. I also said Han realizes he's getting old and during the story he turns the Falcon over to Rey. You won't accept anything that doesn't make Rey look like a total MarySue. You want her to be this character that can do everything remarkably better than anyone else without any training or experience... in some cases no previous knowledge of what it even is. You love this MarySue crap and you spend you're entire day trying to convince us that MarySue Rey is not a MarySue. We just call her that because allegedly we never wanted these movies to be made... nor for these characters to exist. But that accusation is just a lie and a big straw man distraction you keep repeating over and over again in a vain attempt to escape all of the evidence that Rey is a MarySue and Finn is a Disney stooge. It's not going to work because (unlike you) we are not stupid fans. We know our SW. Just admit that Rey is a MarySue and Finn is just a Disney stooge and that they might be crap SW characters, but that's what you like. Because you're never going to convince us that they are not crappy in-universe SW characters. Because the evidence says so. And we are not stupid enough to ignore it and buy into that total nonsense false narrative of yours.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 18:00:30 GMT
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I said Rey was already an experienced pilot that Han recruited for her skills. I also said Han realizes he's getting old and during the story he turns the Falcon over to Rey. And where would she get the experience then? If she's to be a poor little orphan girl Han rescues then can't be allow to have any competencies, remember? And Han turning the Falcon over to ANYONE is a betrayal of his character, after all. OT fans would insist we see every facet of Rey's history from Han meeting her to every step of her learning to fly, etc. Look at Obi-Wan. Was he introduced as a bumbling sidekick? Did we need to see him fail at everything? No. But Rey can't be allowed to have ANY competencies because NOT being a bumbler makes her a Mary Sue. Well, you didn't. Their very existence screws with the OT's ending. Leave it to you, the ST Leads wouldn't become leads until Episode 12 after 6 more movies with the OT cast and only in the very last seconds and then there'd be a declaration that this was the end of the new movies and they never had any intention of making stories where Rey and Finn were the REAL leads and if anyone expected that they're idiots. You know well enough that you'd decry anything post-OT as fanfic. Anything that isn't just "The OT characters are the only real heroes and leads and everyone lived happily ever after" like the EU books did. Because thanks to them, the OT cast are no longer the only Leads in town and now it's someone elses' story. Someone else who isn't a bumbling sidekick to the OT characters. Their very existence is an insult to OT characters. I know of course you'll just put up that pic of the delusional man.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 18:02:42 GMT
I just don't how that's possible without pissing someone off. This happened before with Star Trek, but they an easier time of it because the Original show didn't have a conclusive ending unlike the OT's "Happily Ever After" ending. And they wanted the new characters to take the forefront ASAP, hopefully within 1 movie. There's a difference between a few people inevitably being pissed off and a lot of people disliking or hating the decisions that were made. My impression from the fans was that the ST characters taking over from the OT ones was not one of the main reasons why many of them disliked how these characters were handled. Something had to be done to get the OT characters off the table, otherwise there's no point to the ST characters in the first place. Unfortunately the nostalgia value means they HAD to bring back the OT characters for TFA. Disney was dealt a bad hand in that it's been over 30 years since the OT ended. The best time to do sequels would've been in the early 90s when it would've been easier to introduce Rey and Kylo as kids and build on it from there but they couldn't do that.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 12, 2018 18:49:00 GMT
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I said Rey was already an experienced pilot that Han recruited for her skills. I also said Han realizes he's getting old and during the story he turns the Falcon over to Rey. And where would she get the experience then? If she's to be a poor little orphan girl Han rescues then can't be allow to have any competencies, remember? And Han turning the Falcon over to ANYONE is a betrayal of his character, after all. OT fans would insist we see every facet of Rey's history from Han meeting her to every step of her learning to fly, etc. I never said Han rescued Rey. That's the lying narrative you keep playing in that delusional head of yours. I said Han recruited her. Look up the difference between recruit and rescue in the dictionary. (You need professional help). And no, it would be accepted Han turning the Falcon over to Rey. Nobody from OT fans is complaining of Rey having the Millennium Falcon. They are complaining about her MarySue piloting and gunning. Once again you are not listening to people's complaints. You are telling us what our complaints are. So yeah, you're delusional.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 12, 2018 18:52:27 GMT
There's a difference between a few people inevitably being pissed off and a lot of people disliking or hating the decisions that were made. My impression from the fans was that the ST characters taking over from the OT ones was not one of the main reasons why many of them disliked how these characters were handled. Something had to be done to get the OT characters off the table, otherwise there's no point to the ST characters in the first place. Unfortunately the nostalgia value means they HAD to bring back the OT characters for TFA. Disney was dealt a bad hand in that it's been over 30 years since the OT ended. The best time to do sequels would've been in the early 90s when it would've been easier to introduce Rey and Kylo as kids and build on it from there but they couldn't do that. There were many ways TFA could've been handled. Do it without the OT cast, briefly involve the OT cast before removing them in the first film, kill them off over the new trilogy, keep them on the entire trilogy, etc. That's just one aspect of this situation. Another one is how you handle the OT characters. Do you move them forward as characters, or do you cater to nostalgia by rehashing them? Han could've been an admiral in the New Republic instead of a smuggler again. Leia could've been chancellor or a high ranking senator instead of a leader of an underdog military organization. Luke could've been a Jedi Master and leader of a growing Jedi Academy instead of a broken failure (a.k.a. Obi-Wan or Yoda). Most fans seemed fine with Han and Leia. A lot of us had problems with how Luke was handled. Regarding Rey and Finn, they should've been more balanced out in terms of failure and success, similar to the OT characters. Make Kylo Ren less whiny and more competent as a villain. Give Phasma more screen time and something meaningful to do. Don't make Hux hammy or the butt of jokes. Give us an interesting and logical backstory for Snoke. Give Poe and Finn more screen time together. Probably nix Rose and Holdo. Give Ackbar a heroic sendoff. Things like that. Disney wasn't dealt a bad hand. They dealt themselves a bad hand by not having the brains and balls to do better. They're fucking up their "print money" brand.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 19:03:02 GMT
I never said Han rescued Rey. That's the lying narrative you keep playing in that delusional head of yours. I said Han recruited her. Recruited her from a life of petty crime, theft, etc. Same thing as rescuing her. The Hell they aren't. And mentioning Han trained her to fly and we didn't see any training would be better? Don't make me laugh. Insignificant stuff. Off-screen. As opposed to Rey, where we need to see every second of her training in everything she's good at for it to be acceptable. Same as Rey being no match for Snoke. He still ended up killing him by chopping him in half. As opposed to Rey, who HAS to lose to Kylo no matter what. My argument is that she gets shot down everytime she shows any competence in any way. So that means she can't be allowed to be good at ANYTHING. Especially next to an OT character. Anytime anyone says the OT cast weren't treated respectfully or their characters were poorly done, and then complain about anything the ST characters do they're backing up my accusations. You say the ST is fanfic, that's all that's needed. A delusional madman who can't face the truth.
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Post by Nightman on Apr 12, 2018 19:09:48 GMT
It takes serious cajones to lie to someone straight to their face about what they're thinking.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 19:10:24 GMT
]There were many ways TFA could've been handled. Do it without the OT cast, briefly involve the OT cast before removing them in the first film, kill them off over the new trilogy, keep them on the entire trilogy, etc. Doing it without them was never an option, Ford was only coming back if they killed him in the first movie, and no matter how many times they tried any scripts with Luke in them always had him take over the story to the point Rey and Finn had no reason to exist in the first place. And they HAVE been killing them off over the trilogy. Like I said, Han's a dead man walking regardless and no one could think of a reason to have Rey and Luke co-exist without Luke rendering Rey utterly useless. Plus the Prequels tainted the idea of there being a big Republic and Jedi Order in the Sequels. They're too associated with bad stories. As for Rey, they wanted to avoid the OT problem where Luke was the least interesting character continually overshadowed by Han and Leia. So they made sure Rey wouldn't come off that way compared to Finn or Poe or anyone. They probably didn't flesh out Snoke or the First Order because Palpatine and the Empire were't either. They're just placeholders for Ren to come to power, and he was never meant to be some all-powerful villain like Vader either. His issues and lack of power are deliberate. Thanks to the Prequels, anything political or involving a Grand Republic and a big Jedi Order were off the table, and the OT fans were demanding the OT leads come back. Problem is that the OT Leads weren't written as the kind of characters who need replacing, and the Saga had a conclusive ending with ROTJ meaning any new conflicts were going to ruin the OT's ending on principle. So in order to have new characters take over ASAP there's now way you could do the OT characters properly because they aren't meant to "Pass the Torch". They're meant to hold onto the Torch forever and live happily ever after with no new threats emerging. If Disney had been able to buy Star Wars back in the 80s or so and start making Sequels in the mid 90s then there'd have been no Prequels and no one would be disgusted with the idea of a Republic and a Jedi Order and there'd be more options. As it is, Disney was backed into a corner thanks to how bad off Star Wars was when they bought it.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 12, 2018 19:20:59 GMT
I never said Han rescued Rey. That's the lying narrative you keep playing in that delusional head of yours. I said Han recruited her. Recruited her from a life of petty crime, theft, etc. Same thing as rescuing her. The Hell they aren't. And mentioning Han trained her to fly and we didn't see any training would be better? Don't make me laugh. Insignificant stuff. Off-screen. As opposed to Rey, where we need to see every second of her training in everything she's good at for it to be acceptable. Same as Rey being no match for Snoke. He still ended up killing him by chopping him in half. As opposed to Rey, who HAS to lose to Kylo no matter what. My argument is that she gets shot down everytime she shows any competence in any way. So that means she can't be allowed to be good at ANYTHING. Especially next to an OT character. Anytime anyone says the OT cast weren't treated respectfully or their characters were poorly done, and then complain about anything the ST characters do they're backing up my accusations. You say the ST is fanfic, that's all that's needed. A delusional madman who can't face the truth. You're a freaking bold face liar.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 19:37:40 GMT
Recruited her from a life of petty crime, theft, etc. Same thing as rescuing her. The Hell they aren't. And mentioning Han trained her to fly and we didn't see any training would be better? Don't make me laugh. Insignificant stuff. Off-screen. As opposed to Rey, where we need to see every second of her training in everything she's good at for it to be acceptable. Same as Rey being no match for Snoke. He still ended up killing him by chopping him in half. As opposed to Rey, who HAS to lose to Kylo no matter what. My argument is that she gets shot down everytime she shows any competence in any way. So that means she can't be allowed to be good at ANYTHING. Especially next to an OT character. Anytime anyone says the OT cast weren't treated respectfully or their characters were poorly done, and then complain about anything the ST characters do they're backing up my accusations. You say the ST is fanfic, that's all that's needed. A delusional madman who can't face the truth. You're a freaking bold face liar. Passing the torch was always going to be nigh-impossible with new characters. Hell, even in comic books they barely pull it off even if they use the sidekick characters who have been around for freaking decades!
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 12, 2018 19:42:40 GMT
You're a freaking bold face liar. Passing the torch was always going to be nigh-impossible with new characters. Hell, even in comic books they barely pull it off even if they use the sidekick characters who have been around for freaking decades!
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 19:46:50 GMT
Passing the torch was always going to be nigh-impossible with new characters. Hell, even in comic books they barely pull it off even if they use the sidekick characters who have been around for freaking decades! Name any "pass the torch" stories done that worked without complaint. You can't.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 12, 2018 20:02:59 GMT
Name any "pass the torch" stories done that worked without complaint. You can't. You don't even know what "pass the torch" means!
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 20:13:33 GMT
Name any "pass the torch" stories done that worked without complaint. You can't. You don't even know what "pass the torch" means! It means the former leads either getting killed off or incapacitated or retired somehow that they're out of the story and new characters take over. And the audience accepting that these new people are now the main characters. And I've never seen it done in a way fans accept it unless the new lead happens to be some sidekick the Lead already had from the start. And even THEN there are complaints!
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 12, 2018 20:22:43 GMT
You don't even know what "pass the torch" means! It means the former leads either getting killed off or incapacitated or retired somehow that they're out of the story and new characters take over. And the audience accepting that these new people are now the main characters. And I've never seen it done in a way fans accept it unless the new lead happens to be some sidekick the Lead already had from the start. And even THEN there are complaints!
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 12, 2018 20:24:09 GMT
It means the former leads either getting killed off or incapacitated or retired somehow that they're out of the story and new characters take over. And the audience accepting that these new people are now the main characters. And I've never seen it done in a way fans accept it unless the new lead happens to be some sidekick the Lead already had from the start. And even THEN there are complaints! So you're accepting that Passing the torch is impossible in SW as well. Good.
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