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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 15, 2018 23:47:10 GMT
Like I said, they were scared and wanted an easy way to re-establish Star Wars. The next trilogy is when they'll do new stuff because they'll have established a new fanbase by then. Playing it ridiculously safe with TFA was bad enough. You're the only person I've ever heard claim that Disney's plan was to play it safe the entire trilogy. Most of us were expecting a lot more originality in TLJ. They kind of did. Kylo showed he wasn't interested in redemption and has taken over as the main big bad and the Big Super-Jedi everyone was banking on to save them is gone from this plane. It was the same thing with Blade Runner 2049, but people loved that movie (even though it underperformed). The OT could get away with a LOT of stuff the ST can't... I seriously doubt it would be that easy. There'd be complaints over the First Order being around no matter how they did it. Because it was the first movie, people didn't have expectations back then that they do now. What worked before doesn't always keep working.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 16, 2018 0:00:36 GMT
They kind of did. Kylo showed he wasn't interested in redemption and has taken over as the main big bad and the Big Super-Jedi everyone was banking on to save them is gone from this plane. Rian rehashed a lot from ESB and ROTJ, including Kylo Ren bringing Rey before his master and killing Snoke to save Rey. The only real reason why Kylo Ren didn't get redeemed was because they still needed to make IX, and all the remaining villains suck. It's possible Kylo Ren might still get redeemed. Luke died like Yoda and Obi-Wan did. I never expected him to overshadow Rey. I haven't seen that film yet, so I can't comment. Excuses, excuses... Why does it need to be easy? First of all, who's complaining about the First Order being around? Secondly, this isn't about eliminating all complaints. You can drop people in the middle of a galactic conflict as long as you provide enough information throughout the film so they're not confused.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 16, 2018 0:44:54 GMT
They kind of did. Kylo showed he wasn't interested in redemption and has taken over as the main big bad and the Big Super-Jedi everyone was banking on to save them is gone from this plane. Rian rehashed a lot from ESB and ROTJ, including Kylo Ren bringing Rey before his master and killing Snoke to save Rey. Well, that's a fairly common thing in these kind of stories.. Yeah, but a lot of OT fans were expecting him to be their new savior or take over the Resistance now that Leia and Han are gone. Well, it's true. When I brought up how ANH never explained everything about the Empire or the Emperor they said "It's the first movie, they don't need to explain anything." Plenty of the ST detractors, for one thing. ANH didn't tell us much of anything about the Empire either, so there shouldn't be as many complaints about the First Order. But because ROTJ had a happy ending they do complain.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 16, 2018 9:32:02 GMT
What would be the point in killing them off? To make it perfectly, utterly clear that the new characters are the new leads and there's no going back. So get with the program or go away. That's the message. Let's use the Flash as an example, did they just have Barry Allen retire and not use him much when they made Wally West the Flash? No, they killed off Barry and Wally wasn't derided for this. So you use one example in the Flash? I got an example for you. Dick Grayson left off being Robin and became Nightwing. Did Grayson stop being an active superhero? No. Was the Robin torch passed? Yes. Sorry, but you can't exclusively define passing the torch in your narrow definition. No you don't. Stories that have longevity and become classics don't do that. They only kill off characters when the story demands it. Not to force new characters into a spotlight that needs to degrade previous characters in order to accomplish it. No. They shared the spotlight. Something that your brain can't comprehend. Of course it's good enough. That's why Rey and Snoke are the only SW characters to ever have this complaint about no supposition. Because giving concise supposition is enough in most cases to satisfy the audience. Giving no supposition on a key character is not. Please! We both know you would call that a happily ever after scenario. Of course there was chances of falling and lethal threats that they had to deal with. You either didn't read the EU stories or you're misrepresenting them. (No surprise there). Rumors do not a point make... Not the way they're doing it, it isn't. But I tell you what? Since you are such a big fan of this storytelling concept - you should start cheering for the ST stars to get killed off in episode IX. They absolutely should not be around to get in the way of Rian Johnson's trilogy.No it wasn't. The Rey character (Daisy Ridley) was already slated as a star of TFA when that was happening. So was Adam Driver as Kylo Ren. They were both listed as stars while all of these OT fans were turning out in droves at these events. Once again, the evidence disputes your claim that OT fans never wanted these characters to have their own spotlight or to have this trilogy made.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 16, 2018 11:49:51 GMT
To make it perfectly, utterly clear that the new characters are the new leads and there's no going back. So get with the program or go away. That's the message. Let's use the Flash as an example, did they just have Barry Allen retire and not use him much when they made Wally West the Flash? No, they killed off Barry and Wally wasn't derided for this. So you use one example in the Flash? I got an example for you. Dick Grayson left off being Robin and became Nightwing. Did Grayson stop being an active superhero? No. Was the Robin torch passed? Yes. Robin's a sidekick. Whenever they try to replace Bruce Wayne, even WITH Dick Grayson, how do you think it went? No, they don't replace the leads at all and just end without continuation or new characters. Which is what the OT fans wanted, for everything to stay done with ROTJ. Hardly. And if anything they only got acceptance for being Luke's kids. Make them independent characters who WEREN'T his kids and they'd get trashed. Not THIS audience. If they died of natural causes and the Galaxy was at peace when it happened, maybe. But it never did, because the OT cast were portrayed as Ultimate Heroes who didn't need any help to protect the Galaxy from ANY threat. When Infinity Wars come out, we'll see. How? We'll see. The hope being that Rey wouldn't actually be the star, and that she'd just be Luke's sidekick until Episode 9 or 12 or something.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 16, 2018 14:04:18 GMT
So you use one example in the Flash? I got an example for you. Dick Grayson left off being Robin and became Nightwing. Did Grayson stop being an active superhero? No. Was the Robin torch passed? Yes. Robin's a sidekick. Whenever they try to replace Bruce Wayne, even WITH Dick Grayson, how do you think it went? Robin might be a sidekick but he is still a major character. Replacing Bruce Wayne has been done before. It's also been done with Captain America, Captain Marvel, and Spider-Man. So ny point still stands. And that's still a lie. Even after posting this claim 7 dozen times it hasn't gotten any more true. Oh, so now they can't even be related to him!... Was Kyle Katarn trashed?... No, he wasn't. And how do you explain Kylo being related but some fans from the various fanbase demographics not liking Kylo? More holes in your arguments than Swiss cheese. Can't even come up with a fake argument against this point, huh? Like I said, the evidence is there that it's good enough. ...under any circumstances you would say it's happily ever after. They did need help in some instances. And that's far more than you can say for Rey! Yet you're not criticizing her character for it. Once again contradicting yourself and your own arguments. We sure will. Until then it has no relevance. How?[/quote] They're killing off characters in ways that are inorganic to their characterization and inorganic to the overall story of the saga. It's done in degrading ways to make the new characters look comparably better before they even lift a finger. Also for the purpose of creating cheap shock value. "We'll see." is not good enough. They should have onscreen deaths to make room for the characters of the next trilogy. If you don't agree with that then you're being hypocritical. If that was the case then they wouldn't have given strong support at these events.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 16, 2018 16:16:29 GMT
Replacing Bruce Wayne has been done before. It's also been done with Captain America, Captain Marvel, and Spider-Man. And in all those cases, it never stuck/worked. General reactions from OT fans say otherwise. Kyle wasn't Luke's replacement. Because even THAT wasn't enough because they were looking for an invincible villain. The only evidence is that the EU can get away with things the ST can't. Like off-page skill building and stuff. Not if they died in battle or something. Because the ST isn't over yet. Also it helps that Infinity Wars will be done by the same people who started the whole MCU and it's not a movie made years later by different people. So no one can criticize it and say "It's all fanfic if the original creator isn't doing it!" There was no way to do it organically as anything done would be derided as fanfic. They were written as too epic and infallible for it to be done organically. The ST isn't over yet, so we DO have to wait and see. No one realized the OT cast would be sidelined back then. They were hoping they'd be everpresent and constantly overshadowing the new cast.
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Post by audiosane on Apr 16, 2018 16:39:28 GMT
Well, that's a fairly common thing in these kind of stories.. How is that fairly common? What movies are you talking about? More importantly, Rian was clearly rehashing Vader bringing Luke before Darth Sidious before later betraying his master, just like he rehashed other parts of ESB and ROTJ. So what? That still won't make him anything more than a supporting character. Han and Leia were never a threat to Rey remaining the protagonist. That's not how movies work. That's only kind of true. The Emperor wasn't even in the first movie, but all we needed to know at the time was that he ran things. The Empire was clearly portrayed as the bad guys. The opening shot visualized them as the dominating force in the galaxy against a puny rebellion. We also get lines like these to help give us a better understanding of things: BEN: An elegant weapon for a more civilized time. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire. BEN: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force. The opening crawl also tells us this: It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. So on and so forth. Point is, ANH gives us enough information to work with. TFA does not. Plenty? Really? I haven't seen a single person complain about the First Order simply existing. Fans usually complain about other things, like TFA rehashing too much from ANH, Luke being portrayed poorly and Rey being a Mary Sue. See above. Also, TFA doesn't give us a clear picture of the galactic dynamics between the First Order and the New Republic or the New Republic and the Resistance. Did the First Order control any territory? What was the size and power of the New Republic compared to the First Order? etc. Most fans who complain about the ST don't do so because of ROTJ's happy ending.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 16, 2018 17:40:19 GMT
Replacing Bruce Wayne has been done before. It's also been done with Captain America, Captain Marvel, and Spider-Man. And in all those cases, it never stuck/worked. Actually not true. Not liking a characters or movies for specific reasons does not equal never wanting them to exist. Anyone using that "line of logic" doesn't know what real logic is. Moving goalposts again? First you say they can't stand on their own without being related to Luke. Kyle Katarn did. Now they have to be Luke's replacement. Your narrow and contrived definitions for things are a joke. You said any character related to Luke would be immune to criticism... "Everyday more lies!" Wait! You're saying OT fans want the OT stars to be invincible and they want an invincible villain!?! LOL! Lulz! There was no off-page skill building. More lies on your part. Not if they died in battle or something.[/quote] Please! You'd just say they were doing that to make them invincible characters by making them iconic martyrs. I'm on to your game. You're just a little irrational, psychotic OT hater. You wouldn't be satisfied with anything less than Luke and these other characters being thoroughly defamed and desecrated, then killed in some useless fashion. If you really think that Rey is going to get some supposition in episode IX... some grounding in the mythos... a redirection or refinement away from being the Disney magic warrior princess MarySue that she has primarily been in the first 2 movies... you are deceiving yourself. Or naively thinking you can deceive me. The foundation was laid and set in TFA. And very purposefully I might add. They're not going to change it or even refine it now! That really has nothing to do with it being labeled fanfic or not. Superheroes and their universes are more fluid. Timelines are more varied and fluid. Dying and resurrection is more varied and fluid. Multiple realities can exist, and the laws and rules in each can be different. So you can pull from many non-primary storylines and events, and still "cheat at" violating canon. This is another lie you have repeated 7 dozen times like it's a fact. Never have proved it. It's just your contrived opinion with absolute ulterior motive behind it. What is there to wait and see about? By the logic of your argument, there is no other way to make room for the new characters of a new trilogy. They have to be killed off. According to you that is the only way to pass the torch. According to you it is impossible for them to share the spotlight. You're entire argument has hinged on it.No, they were hoping Disney wouldn't lie in the press about the casting... in other words, listing Mark Hamill as a star when he only made 5 minutes of screen time and never uttered a word! OT fans already knew Ridley, Driver, and Boyega would star in this movie because that's the way it was promoted. OT fans are passionate and they follow this stuff. No complaints came from their camp about it.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 16, 2018 19:37:08 GMT
And in all those cases, it never stuck/worked. Actually not true. Maybe the Wally West Flash, but even that got undone. It is when there are movements to have the ST de-canonized. I said they probably wouldn't have stood on their own, probably. But they still weren't really replacements because Luke was around as the real big hero. Probably, PROBABLY. Not definitely. Now you're catching on how unpleasable they are. Mara Jade's training. [quotePlease! You'd just say they were doing that to make them invincible characters by making them iconic martyrs.[/quote] No, I wouldn't have minded that. There was no way for her to be grounded in the mythos in a Post-ROTJ world because the mythos ended with ROTJ. It very much does. It IS a fact. There was no way for the ST to be labeled anything but fanfic. Whatever Episode 9 gives us. They knew they'd be in it as Next Generation characters, they just were hoping they'd all be background characters or sidekicks or something. Those kind of "Stars".
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 16, 2018 20:32:36 GMT
Well, that's a fairly common thing in these kind of stories.. How is that fairly common? In comics, Star Trek, Dr Who, usual "Epic" stories... I think it would. How? Because they don't tell us every little thing about the Republic and the First Order? Anyone who says they're just an Empire reskin, for one. Probably because they were scared that would just be the Prequels again.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 16, 2018 21:52:22 GMT
Maybe the Wally West Flash, but even that got undone. Obviously your knowledge only extends to DC Flash. There's Batman Beyond and Captain Marvel's history to name a few. That's only a small minority of fans who are literally getting behind that. Besides... didn't the same thing happen with the prequels? I'm sure you got behind that movement! (Go ahead and say it was warranted with the prequels so I can smoke you on your hypocrisy). It's irrelevant that Luke was also a hero. Han has been a hero along the same timeline as Luke. So was Leia often. It's called sharing the spotlight. Something you lack the ability to even mentally comprehend, despite it's existence and evidence. Well you can toss the "probablys" out with yesterday's trash, because there's proof positive against it. No, now I'm catching more of your lies about the OT fanbase. Again, your saying it doesn't make it so. And the fact that fans are critical doesn't constitute proof. Any clown can open their mouth and say something is true when it's clearly a blatant lie (such as you're doing right now). If these same kind of accusations of yours were being made against a notable person, you'd be sued for slander by now. Not really. (And this statement coming from someone who considers any supposition as spoon feeding). I'm going to borrow a line of thought from you: the nature of your complaints are proof enough that you are not being honest in saying that. LOL Uhh... no it didn't! Apparently you don't know what mythos means. Ending it after ROTJ makes anything coming after it fan fiction. Fact. Lies. All you have to do is continue the established mythos. It's done all the time. If they don't die in episode IX they'll just be in the way of the next trilogy. That's according to you. It really doesn't matter what episode IX gives us unless it gives us their deaths. That's according to your line of logic. There are no background stars. If someone is headlining a movie they're not in the background.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 16, 2018 22:13:20 GMT
Maybe the Wally West Flash, but even that got undone. Obviously your knowledge only extends to DC Flash. There's Batman Beyond and Captain Marvel's history to name a few. Batman Beyond is some future AU, and it's marketed as such and not Batman's actual future. So it can be written off as "bad fanfic" the same way as the ST by people who hate it. As for Captain Marvel, Carol had been around since nearly the start of the that comic and been her own hero for years as Ms Marvel so it was easier to accept. Yeah, and people GOT OVER IT with the Prequels. Hopefully they'll do the same with the ST. It's very relevant. Well, also they're pissed at him for killing Han and being a Vader fanboy so there's that. It shows how they're damn unpleasable. Yes, really. Rey being some secret Jedi Luke trained to go out and do stuff would've been just as derided as Rey is now. Which is showing how the ST cannot please you. Which ended with ROTJ, meaning any continuation would be derided as fanfic. Well, we'll just have to see how it goes. Precisely, but it's what OT fans were hoping Rey and Finn would be.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 17, 2018 12:44:35 GMT
Obviously your knowledge only extends to DC Flash. There's Batman Beyond and Captain Marvel's history to name a few. Batman Beyond is some future AU, and it's marketed as such and not Batman's actual future. So it can be written off as "bad fanfic" the same way as the ST by people who hate it. Actually no, it can't. It's an alternate reality or timeline. Like I said earlier, that's the way most superhero universes work (especially DC and Marvel). The Star Wars universe DOES NOT work that way. So when you introduce characters (like Rey) that degrade, violate, or ignore the mythos... you can't harmonize it back to the overall lore of the saga by claiming these characters are following an alternate timeline or alternate reality. The same thing applies to absurd characterizations like Finn. [uote] That's a convenient excuse to try and discredit it as an example. The fact is that there have been more than 2 Captain Marvels. So that shoots down your excuse. Not to mention there have been more than one Ms.Marvels. The latest one is Kamala Khan who was not around with a previous superheroine history. That also shoots down your theory. Did all of them get over it? Did you get over it? It doesn't sound like it.No it isn't. Not at all. There's very, very little resentment against his character for killing Han. And they did write the character as a cheesy Vader fanboy totally devoid of any depth when it came to that theme. They teased depth by having him pray to Vader's helmet. But was more "empty Abrams mystery box" that went nowhere. Not to mention it's getting off topic of why Kylo was brought up in the first place. He's proof that someone related to Luke is not a "bulletproof character". It shows that they respect the portrayal of the saga... the authenticity of the characters, the mythos, and the lore. Obviously Disney doesn't. So they clearly brought some of this on themselves. No amount of baseless defamation of OT fans is going to hide or distract from that fact. You make a knockoff... you should expect that you will get criticism for it from customers wanting the real thing. A lie is still a lie - whether you say it one time or repeat it a thousand times. This still a lie you haven't produced a spec of proof on. And no... general complaints are not proof of anything. Your "reasoning" (if you can even call it that) is absurd. It's comparable to the logic of a mentally unstable person. It's like a person going to you as a doctor and complaining of a foot laceration and you saying "See! This is proof of stomach cancer!" You sound like an idiot. No it's just stating facts. It can fairly be called fanfic for violating such an important rule, whether you (or I or anyone else) likes it or not. You are the one who are offended by that fact and trying to convince others that it is no way fanfic in relation to the rest of onscreen SW. Just admit that it is and that you like it because of that. Again, no it didn't end post-ROTJ. If it did then you don't include any of the OT characters in the sequel trilogy. You just pay out there signed contracts and dismiss them from the films. If it did end post-ROTJ then you don't try and marry your trilogy's canonization to the canon of the OT. If it did end post-ROTJ then you come out with the sequel trilogy (from the beginning) being a reboot. Stop waffling and running/hiding from your artistic principles regarding SW! Principles and arguments you have emphatically stated over a hundred times already in your posting history. No they weren't. I already proved that OT fans knew that they were going to be stars and didn't complain or reject the idea. You saying "no" and sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't prove otherwise.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 17, 2018 13:31:22 GMT
Batman Beyond is some future AU, and it's marketed as such and not Batman's actual future. So it can be written off as "bad fanfic" the same way as the ST by people who hate it. Actually no, it can't. It's an alternate reality or timeline. Like I said earlier, that's the way most superhero universes work (especially DC and Marvel). The Star Wars universe DOES NOT work that way. Hence Rey's dilemma, and why she just cannot win. Yeah, and the second was someone who was there right from the start and had years of being her own hero so older fans couldn't complain that much. Because Carol fans don't care that they gave her Carol's leftover name because Carol got upgraded to Captain. Plus her fanbase isn't as fanatical as the OT fans are. And the comics are loaded with heroes and stories always being told, as opposed to Star Wars which only has one set of heroes who are not meant to ever be replaced. I got over it enough to accept its existence, unlike OT fans with the ST. Yeah, it is. OT fans had him to fall back on and his presence always overshadowed the new characters. Says you. If it was abandoned by Rian, it was due to the poor reception it got in TFA. Luke still being alive also helped those other characters along with the relation. The saga that was constantly being rewritten as it went on. Nice double standard. Which shows the ST just can't win. They try something different, get trashed for being different. Try something similar, get trashed. No-Win. The only lie here is that Rey could get away with being some secret Jedi student of Luke's. She was gonna get derided unless we see every facet of her life from birth onwards. Not being written by Lucas, and for violating ROTJ's Happily Ever After ending. Silly stuff. It did, that's why the EU didn't do stuff to properly continue the saga like kill off the OT cast and have new characters fully take over. If they did that, they'd offend the OT fans who'd been waiting 30 years to see them again on the big screen. The ones who were able to put their disgust at the thought of new movies about new characters aside momentarily just to see the OT cast again. But we just don't know how Episode 9 will go. Because they didn't know the OT cast wouldn't be there to walk them through absolutely every step and that Rey and Finn weren't going to be Stars-In-Name-Only while Luke and Han and Leia were still the Top Dogs.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Apr 17, 2018 14:59:57 GMT
Rogue One did not follow the Disneyfication mold that the sequel trilogy has. That's why it had slightly more success as an anthology film than Disney expected. I'm not sold that they are going to do that with other Disney SW movies. They're definitely not going to do things that way with episode IX. We will have to wait and see how they handle "Solo". Also, RO was set in the "Classic Era", which, apparently, everyone still wants to see. It's the reason that all of the "Classic" spinoffs will always do well. Probably because the original trilogy is so beloved. The prequels were pretty hated, especially early on, but the spin offs like Clone Wars show, got by with the things that people liked with certain characters and the whole Jedi being a big factor. If Disney was smart they would focus on what is popular with Star Wars rather than trying to force what they think what we want. I am curious to see how Solo does.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 17, 2018 17:52:00 GMT
Actually no, it can't. It's an alternate reality or timeline. Like I said earlier, that's the way most superhero universes work (especially DC and Marvel). The Star Wars universe DOES NOT work that way. Hence Rey's dilemma, and why she just cannot win. Which is Disney's fault for purposefully writing her like a warrior princess who uses Disney magic instead of a Force user. That's not any fanbases fault. You're putting the cart before the horse. In other words... a load of bull excuses. Like I said, passing the torch has been done before. You said it isn't done and accepted under any circumstances... Now you're rotating excuses!... and back-pedaling to your default position of demonizing OT fans. Laughable. I got over it enough to accept its existence, unlike OT fans with the ST.[/quote] Bull crap! You've been whining about them, alleging they ruined the franchise of SW. Nope. They shared the spotlight. Fact. Darned right. Which is far more credible than you and your mountain of posting history lies. Another lie! It never got any poor reception. Just a lot of intrigue and a desire for a future explanation. It was abandoned because when Rian met with Abrams to about where this and a dozen other storylines were going, Jar Jar Abrams gave him nothing but a blank slate. (It was Abrams once again doing his mystery box aka fake storylines that have questions but no answers). Rian Johnson had 2 choices: * devote a lot of his writing time to coming up with his own answers; also devote a lot of onscreen time to answering them, leaving little time to devote to a story of his to move the saga forward... Or... * ignore some, most, or all of these empty storylines by putting up a story that "opens up all of Abrams mystery boxes" to reveal it was going nowhere in the first place. Unfortunately Johnson didn't even attempt to answer a few of them. Although I can hardly blame him for handcuffing himself to all of them given the sheer amount Jar Jar Abrams created. I can only shake my head at your back-peddling, flip-flopping, and excuse making. But always made sure it harmonized with itself no matter how many times it was rewritten. Disney had the same opportunity to do the same thing in their rewrites. They deliberately didn't because they had a predetermined agenda to ignore it and violate it. Nope. You make something different according to the rules of what it's built on. Simple... ...which is STILL a blatant lie you haven't proven. If a parrot trained to talk says "I'm a human being." 8,000 times in his lifetime he's still lying. And so are you, little lying parrot. Because it meets the definition of fanfic under any franchise or genre. Fact. Have a cracker and stop parroting lies.
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Post by Larcen26 on Apr 17, 2018 17:59:17 GMT
Disney knows TLJ is crap?This guy posits that the trailer for the blu ray is quite telling that Disney acknowledges there's problems...maybe he's on to something? ...But it isn't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 18:04:33 GMT
Disney knows TLJ is crap?This guy posits that the trailer for the blu ray is quite telling that Disney acknowledges there's problems...maybe he's on to something? ...But it isn't. Indeed it isn't. Even crap has a purpose at least.
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Post by formersamhmd on Apr 17, 2018 18:11:54 GMT
Hence Rey's dilemma, and why she just cannot win. Which is Disney's fault for purposefully writing her like a warrior princess who uses Disney magic instead of a Force user. They did write her as a Force User, just not the tagalong bumbling sidekick of Lukes that the OT fans wanted her to be. More like, they were lucky Carol wasn't an A-Lister so they could get away with it. Most people didn't even realize Kamala was a Legacy character to begin with. Not with top-tier characters. Nearly, but compared to the over-the-top hatred the ST gets it ain't much of anything. They most certainly did not. No, I posted that thread about "What do you Hate the most about the ST?" and you haven't posted anything about people who like the ST as a counter. Uh, no. It was getting ripped to shreds from opening night. I Luke had been dead at the time that novel came out, it would've ended up pulped. No, the mythos ended with ROTJ. So there was no way to harmonize with what came before. There's nothing to build on after ROTJ if you want new conflicts where things don't end happily ever after for the OT cast. The reception Rey is all the proof I need. NOTHING is good enough to appease her haters. Because they chose to make stories about new characters who weren't constantly overshadowed by Luke and the OT cast. And they chose not to make these new characters bumbling incompetents who need to be spoonfed everything by Luke and co. OT fans just can't stand that. OT fans who can't move on past ROTJ is silly, yes. The OT cats weren't going to be around forever, deal with it. They didn't fundamentally change anything, they just chose to not leave ROTJ as a Happily Ever After. And any continuation past ROTJ with new characters who were independent characters instead of bumbling sidekicks was going to violate the Mythos by your standards. They were fine with them as long as they assumed they were going to be bumbling incompetent sidekicks. Inevitable, when the old cast were portrayed as infallible heroes. We don't know how Episode 9 will end. Maybe they WILL die. So was I, and most of the chatter was about how they figuring that the new characters wouldn't really be leads until Episode 9 and they were hoping the OT characters would be the real stars of the New Trilogy.
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