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Post by Toasted Cheese on Apr 15, 2018 6:18:48 GMT
A common thing I hear in Christianity is that Jesus never sinned, but in the Bible, in certain places, Jesus does call people names. He refers to people as "fools" and other things.
My interpretation is that it's okay to call someone a fool if that person is actually a fool, but someone else might argue that it's never okay to call names.
What are your thoughts? Did Jesus ever sin?  What is the point of going around being a goody goody all the time? That is just being precious and can do more damage than good. Have some backbone man!
Things are what they are and if they are a certain thing, just call it for what it is if it is appropriate. Christ loses his temper as well, according to the gospels. Christ was fully aware of his divine nature, yet still in suffering human form. Sin is just a manmade concept anyway and is born out of a mindset of fear, ignorance and condemnation. I think Christ would have looked at people as being the original blessing, rather than the original sin.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Apr 15, 2018 6:32:26 GMT
Is it important that Jesus never sinned? If so, why?
I don't think it would matter if he did sin. Maybe it would help us simple human beings be able to identify with him better. 
Not trying to offend anyone, just thinking out loud.  If Jesus sinned He wouldn't have been the perfect sacrifice for our sins. He wouldn't have been the Lamb of God able to take away our sins. I don't quite get this "separate" entity notion belief, of someone else sacrificing themselves for others actions— or sins as the church calls it—and behaviors. It appears all rather abstract, nonsensical, naïve, silly and absurd to my perception of what our lives are about and what we are here for. Christ was a teacher\guru, who was leading by example and who understood the power of the ego dominated mind and the transcendence of it. He wasn't divine above all others, only leading the way into it for others who cared to follow and find their own divine within. Christ knew it was all whole and one and complete and connected. There is no separate level of divinity, compared to another. Responsibility for our own lives, is taken upon that life itself, not for someone else to do it for you. That is just a cop-out.
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Post by cupcakes on Apr 15, 2018 14:28:22 GMT
tpfkar He was the product of either an adulterous affair or rape.  What!?!
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 16, 2018 14:41:19 GMT
Arguably yes, when he went crazy in that church full of merchants and money changers and overturned tables (wrath is a sin) That was more a case of righteous anger(indignation) being exhibited rather than wrath. Is being angry, or very indignant if you want to have it that way, at something which cannot but help its nature a righteous act?
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Post by politicidal on Apr 16, 2018 14:59:06 GMT
...does a bear sh!t in the woods...   . Must I be present? Can't the park ranger confirm it?
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Post by koskiewicz on Apr 16, 2018 15:31:10 GMT
...as long as the bear doesn't get the park ranger first...
Bears can run up to 40 miles per hour. That park ranger doesn't have a chance...
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Post by cupcakes on Apr 16, 2018 15:38:59 GMT
tpfkar Arguably yes, when he went crazy in that church full of merchants and money changers and overturned tables (wrath is a sin) That was more a case of righteous anger(indignation) being exhibited rather than wrath. If Jesus literally puts you through a woodchipper, it of course is just another instance of Love™. Women shouldn't be presidents, prime ministers or chancellors
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Post by johnblutarsky on Apr 17, 2018 20:01:43 GMT
Well, there was that one time when Jesus attended a bachelor party.
It’s hard to pin down the specifics, because what happens in Cana - stays in Cana.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Apr 17, 2018 20:14:44 GMT
Is it important that Jesus never sinned? If so, why?
I don't think it would matter if he did sin. Maybe it would help us simple human beings be able to identify with him better. 
Not trying to offend anyone, just thinking out loud.  If Jesus sinned He wouldn't have been the perfect sacrifice for our sins. He wouldn't have been the Lamb of God able to take away our sins. Seriously? Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful deity set up such a convoluted way to take away our sins? He could have created us without sin, but didn't. So, did He set us up to fail, and then enjoy the spectacle of His son's crucifixion? Sounds like a sadist to me.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Apr 18, 2018 20:30:35 GMT
If Jesus sinned He wouldn't have been the perfect sacrifice for our sins. He wouldn't have been the Lamb of God able to take away our sins. Seriously? Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful deity set up such a convoluted way to take away our sins? He could have created us without sin, but didn't. So, did He set us up to fail, and then enjoy the spectacle of His son's crucifixion? Sounds like a sadist to me. Makes for a good fairy tale, though
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 18, 2018 20:44:47 GMT
If Jesus sinned He wouldn't have been the perfect sacrifice for our sins. He wouldn't have been the Lamb of God able to take away our sins. Seriously? Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful deity set up such a convoluted way to take away our sins? He could have created us without sin, but didn't. So, did He set us up to fail, and then enjoy the spectacle of His son's crucifixion? Sounds like a sadist to me. It's not convoluted. A fifth grader can understand transactional math. You keep asking questions based on what you think the answers are, but that's all wrong too so i can understand why it's confusing to you.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Apr 20, 2018 10:08:04 GMT
Seriously? Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful deity set up such a convoluted way to take away our sins? He could have created us without sin, but didn't. So, did He set us up to fail, and then enjoy the spectacle of His son's crucifixion? Sounds like a sadist to me. It's not convoluted. A fifth grader can understand transnational math. You keep asking questions based on what you think the answers are, but that's all wrong too so i can understand why it's confusing to you. But it is convoluted and absurd. People are just too afraid to let go of their delusional beliefs.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 20, 2018 12:19:51 GMT
It's not convoluted. A fifth grader can understand transactional math. You keep asking questions based on what you think the answers are, but that's all wrong too so i can understand why it's confusing to you. But it is convoluted and absurd. People are just too afraid to let go of their delusional beliefs. No it's not.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 20, 2018 14:04:26 GMT
A common thing I hear in Christianity is that Jesus never sinned, but in the Bible, in certain places, Jesus does call people names. He refers to people as "fools" and other things.
My interpretation is that it's okay to call someone a fool if that person is actually a fool, but someone else might argue that it's never okay to call names.
What are your thoughts? Did Jesus ever sin?  Although the answer is, generally supposedly 'no'. However, theologians have discussed it at length. In technical terms, “impeccability” is the doctrine that Christ could not sin, though he could be (and was) tempted. There also I think remains the interesting moment when Jesus curses a fig tree for, in effect, not being able to change its nature or condition (which, presumably God, er, Jesus made in the first place!) just to please Him:
While, yes, Christ manages immediately after the cursing to draw out a lesson, it is notable in that He quickly suggests that a. impossible things can be realised through faith and b. as long as you believe whatever is asked for will be granted. Since neither of these things are evidenced in real life (the mountains moving of the former is really over the top in what one can reasonably expect, while the latter in particular goes against the spirit of Eccl:9 1-12 for instance, the idea that God does not micromanage), a less charitable view of the passage is that Christ's curse was through a fit of pique - since there were no figs to be had when He desired some - and then He went to make a hastily erected moral out his outburst which was dutifully recorded. The disciples were, understandably astonished at His outburst and need assuaging. Remember it would be very difficult to argue that His anger was planned in advance just so as to provide instruction. But anyway, since Christ was assuming that figs ought to be available for Him, and was angry because not, then here He can be judged guilty of pride. It is also debatable whether JC's rage was justified anger in the first place, either and really was just a temper - which runs against "don't sin by letting anger control you." of Eph. 4:26...
On another note, it is possible to argue that Christ's death was something of a suicide, since he foresaw his death (and hence could have avoided it) and even later could have saved himself by a miracle (if faith can move mountains then it surely can pop out a few nails). And suicide we are told, is a sin.
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Post by fatpaul on Apr 20, 2018 20:10:02 GMT
If sinning is a transgression from religious teachings and Jesus is the religious teaching, then is it even possible for Jesus to sin?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 20, 2018 23:10:48 GMT
If sinning is a transgression from religious teachings and Jesus is the religious teaching, then is it even possible for Jesus to sin? 1. Jesus is not the religious teaching. He's the teacher 2. Jesus could sin because he is beholden to God's standards as a human 3. God cannot sin, but he could err against his own standards but hasn't done so. Actually, he may not even be able to err against his standards since one of his limitations is he cannot lie.
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Post by goz on Apr 20, 2018 23:26:54 GMT
If sinning is a transgression from religious teachings and Jesus is the religious teaching, then is it even possible for Jesus to sin? 1. Jesus is not the religious teaching. He's the teacher 2. Jesus could sin because he is beholden to God's standards as a human 3. God cannot sin, but he could err against his own standards but hasn't done so. Actually, he may not even be able to err against his standards since one of his limitations is he cannot lie. Wow, I love how convoluted you guys can make things, and then quite smugly think they must be true...whatever it is you are avowing as a matter of convenience to the problem at hand. I grant you it is quite a skill, however there is a great problem with consistency and logic. No 1...got it...Jesus is the teacher. 2. Jesus could sin because he is beholden to God's standards as a human....wait, is Jesus human or not? or is he a God, is he both? In this statement you seem to be going with Jesus is human because God said so. Is he also beholden to God's standards as God, if he is God? How can he be God when God is God? 3. is gobbledegook. Can God sin or err or what?
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Post by fatpaul on Apr 20, 2018 23:38:51 GMT
If sinning is a transgression from religious teachings and Jesus is the religious teaching, then is it even possible for Jesus to sin? 1. Jesus is not the religious teaching. He's the teacher 2. Jesus could sin because he is beholden to God's standards as a human 3. God cannot sin, but he could err against his own standards but hasn't done so. Actually, he may not even be able to err against his standards since one of his limitations is he cannot lie. I'm not disagreeing with you as such, just merely a comment on what a sin was and Jesus' teachings are things that get to define what a sin is. I'm an atheist so I don't believe your 2 and 3.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 20, 2018 23:55:43 GMT
1. Jesus is not the religious teaching. He's the teacher 2. Jesus could sin because he is beholden to God's standards as a human 3. God cannot sin, but he could err against his own standards but hasn't done so. Actually, he may not even be able to err against his standards since one of his limitations is he cannot lie. I'm not disagreeing with you as such, just merely a comment on what a sin was and Jesus' teachings are things that get to define what a sin is. I'm an atheist so I don't believe your 2 and 3. Well belief isn't a necessary component for 2 & 3 can be completely true as a fictional story. The equivalent of the One Ring that could only be destroyed at Mt Doom in Mordor. I never waste time discussing the Bible as nonfiction with atheists, I promise I'm not going to start with you. You commenting on it at all would mean you grasp the notion. You are incorrect about what defines sin though. Jesus did not define sin. Sin already existed prior to his arrival and its effects are felt by non-Christians. He was the perfect example to live sin free. His being perfect was based entirely on the standards established by God. What he may have established are rules and principles, a structure, to be better followers of God's standards that he perfectly exemplified.
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Post by fatpaul on Apr 21, 2018 0:01:28 GMT
Well belief isn't a necessary component for 2 & 3 can be completely true as a fictional story. The equivalent of the One Ring that could only be destroyed at Mt Doom in Mordor. I never waste time discussing the Bible as nonfiction with atheists, I promise I'm not going to start with you. You commenting on it at all would mean you grasp the notion. You are incorrect about what defines sin though. Jesus did not define sin. Sin already existed prior to his arrival and its effects are felt by non-Christians. He was the perfect example to live sin free. His being perfect was based entirely on the standards established by God. What he may have established are rules and principles, a structure, to be better followers of God's standards that he perfectly exemplified. Yes what you say is correct about sin, my atheism, let Adam and Eve off the hook there!
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