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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 0:37:29 GMT
Some classic films are hard to understand for me like this one:
I don't understand why, carey grant's character could force Bergman to do what he made her do in the film. You know, go and infiltrate the bad guys or whatever, get information for carey grant, whatever she had to do in the film. It's been a while since I've seen the first half of it. I feel like, she could of just said no I don't want to go along with it, get lost.
I know she didn't want to go along with it.
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Post by mikef6 on Apr 20, 2018 1:09:14 GMT
Since this is your second thread about not being able to understand classic films, maybe you had just better stick to all those modern films with deep psychology and very clear motivations - if you can find one. Or maybe a simplistic superhero or car chase film is more to your liking.
But, to answer your question: Alicia Huberman had many psychological problems such as a father who had been convicted of treason, alcoholism, low self-esteem, and no direction in life. Devlin played on all those insecurities. All this is plainly visible in the film even if it is not spelled out as if talking to a 3-year-old - as a modern movie might do.
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Post by neurosturgeon on Apr 20, 2018 1:16:54 GMT
Ingrid was asked to help by making her redeem the family name after her father's treasonous acts. Cary was ordered to present the plan to her by Louis Calhern, who is the bad guy in my eyes for suggesting that she use her "friendship" with Claude for information as to what the Nazis were up to.
Cary is morally conflicted but I’m the end somewhat redeems himself.
I am a big fan of both Hitchcock and Grant, but I don't like this film very much. I just think it was too much to ask of any woman.
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 20, 2018 1:28:02 GMT
The aspect of Notorious that makes it one of Hitchcock's most complex and richly layered thrillers - and the one that most fascinated him about the project - is the emotional conflict that lies at its center: spies and espionage are only a premise upon which to base the perverse drama of a man who, in service to duty, must send the woman he loves into the bed of an enemy.
Early in the film, Alicia says to Dev, "You're sore because you've fallen for a little drunk you tamed in Miami and you don't like it. It makes you sick all over, doesn't it? People will laugh at you: the invincible Devlin, in love with someone who isn't worth even wasting the words on." And she's dead on. By the time they both learn what the assignment is, they've already fallen for each other.
And here's where the perversity comes in: Alicia hopes Dev will tell her to refuse the assignment out of a belief that, as she'd sarcastically put it, she's "been made over by love." He hopes she'll refuse it on her own for the same reason. Each waits for the reaction they want from the other, and when neither gets it, he convinces himself that his initial reservations are reinforced in spite of his feelings for her, and she agrees to go ahead with it only to prove herself worthy of him. And the more she does, the more deeply he buries his feelings, coping with his hurt by expressing hostility, which only increases her commitment to the assignment; she's prepared to sacrifice herself to it if she can't have him.
It isn't until she's dying from poisoning that he can fully acknowledge and confess those feelings: "I couldn't see straight or think straight. I was a fatheaded guy full of pain. It tore me up not having you."
While the circumstances are extreme, it's commentary on the nature of romantic relationships in general: people in love do things to hurt one another when neither gets what they want from the other.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 1:28:23 GMT
Since this is your second thread about not being able to understand classic films, maybe you had just better stick to all those modern films with deep psychology and very clear motivations - if you can find one. Or maybe a simplistic superhero or car chase film is more to your liking. But, to answer your question: Alicia Huberman had many psychological problems such as a father who had been convicted of treason, alcoholism, low self-esteem, and no direction in life. Devlin played on all those insecurities. All this is plainly visible in the film even if it is not spelled out as if talking to a 3-year-old - as a modern movie might do. Ya maybe I should stick to those instead. But I like classic films though because I don't have to pay for them, pretty much every silent film is free on youtube, and many classics made after that as well. And every so often I find one that I don't have too much trouble understanding like birth of a nation, which is the best one in my opinion. Or like, orphans of the storm, which is epic. Or Siegfried, which is epic also. There's too much epic-ness in classic films for me to give up, just because I don't always understand everything.
A lot of times they are so muddled, like, the gosta berling saga for example, that they feel muddled and hard to understand everything that's going on. Or like for example, the Joyless street, with greta garbo also, which muddled and hard to understand.
I challenge you, to watch either film mentioned, and see if at least some parts of it are not muddled for you also, if you haven't seen them yet.
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Post by jervistetch on Apr 20, 2018 1:38:54 GMT
"I'm pouring this one for Doghouse6 . Finally someone understands me." 
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Post by spiderwort on Apr 20, 2018 2:56:57 GMT
The aspect of Notorious that makes it one of Hitchcock's most complex and richly layered thrillers - and the one that most fascinated him about the project - is the emotional conflict that lies at its center: spies and espionage are only a premise upon which to base the perverse drama of a man who, in service to duty, must send the woman he loves into the bed of an enemy. Early in the film, Alicia says to Dev, "You're sore because you've fallen for a little drunk you tamed in Miami and you don't like it. It makes you sick all over, doesn't it? People will laugh at you: the invincible Devlin, in love with someone who isn't worth even wasting the words on." And she's dead on. By the time they both learn what the assignment is, they've already fallen for each other. And here's where the perversity comes in: Alicia hopes Dev will tell her to refuse the assignment out of a belief that, as she'd sarcastically put it, she's "been made over by love." He hopes she'll refuse it on her own for the same reason. Each waits for the reaction they want from the other, and when neither gets it, he convinces himself that his initial reservations are reinforced in spite of his feelings for her, and she agrees to go ahead with it only to prove herself worthy of him. And the more she does, the more deeply he buries his feelings, coping with his hurt by expressing hostility, which only increases her commitment to the assignment; she's prepared to sacrifice herself to it if she can't have him. It isn't until she's dying from poisoning that he can fully acknowledge and confess those feelings: "I couldn't see straight or think straight. I was a fatheaded guy full of pain. It tore me up not having you." While the circumstances are extreme, it's commentary on the nature of romantic relationships in general: people in love do things to hurt one another when neither gets what they want from the other. Beautifully said, doghouse. For me, this is Hitchcock's most morally complex film, surpassing even Shadow of a Doubt, a very close second. That, and the cast, is probably why it's my favorite of his films. The MacGuffin in this case drives nothing but the exploration of human frailty and need. With exception of Shadow I don't believe Hitchcock ever came so close to a Tennessee Williams take on the world as he did with Notorious. And Grant and Bergman are perfect collaborators in that vision.
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 20, 2018 13:54:15 GMT
"I'm pouring this one for Doghouse6 . Finally someone understands me."  Shame about the ice...gone.
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 20, 2018 14:09:09 GMT
Beautifully said, doghouse. For me, this is Hitchcock's most morally complex film, surpassing even Shadow of a Doubt, a very close second. That, and the cast, is probably why it's my favorite of his films. The MacGuffin in this case drives nothing but the exploration of human frailty and need. With exception of Shadow I don't believe Hitchcock ever came so close to a Tennessee Williams take on the world as he did with Notorious. And Grant and Bergman are perfect collaborators in that vision. Thanks, and especially for the observance of a Williams analogy, something which never occurred to me. Because of that complexity, it's difficult even to reduce the themes to broad strokes, which I tried to do for the sake of brevity, inasmuch as there are so many levels to their mutual misunderstanding, mistrust and resentment. In that sense, there's another famous couple from literature and film to which I'd liken Alicia and Dev, that being Scarlett and Rhett. When he describes them in the closing scene as having been "at cross purposes," it's something that applies equally to Hitchcock's couple. I wonder if any of our comments here have provided illumination for @joetorrence.
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Post by spiderwort on Apr 20, 2018 14:21:35 GMT
I agree, Doghouse6. It's hard to reduce these things down, and yet one must under these circumstances. And I do hope our thoughts have provided some enlightenment on the subject for anyone inclined to ponder them. Notorious, in my opinion, is a deceptively complex film. That, for me, is the beauty of it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 23:17:37 GMT
People are mad cuz I brought up a question, that may be a plothole?
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 21, 2018 0:05:44 GMT
People are mad cuz I brought up a question, that may be a plothole? Gee whiz, I saw only one reply that contained anything remotely critical of the question, and even that one offered an answer to it. I, for one, was quite happy to address it (as I am for any opportunity to analyze this great film), and had a lot of fun doing so, as well as reading other users' explanations. BUT... if there's no indication forthcoming that you've read, absorbed and considered these replies, I will get mad. And no, I'm not really serious about that, except to the extent that it's only minimally frustrating - no, make that puzzling - when multiple users offer their insights in response to queries, only to go unacknowledged by the thread originator. Nevertheless, I encourage you to keep right on asking questions about classic films that others of us can discuss. When they're ones I appreciate as much as I do Notorious, any excuse to do so is welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 2:35:41 GMT
The only reason I haven't considered your reply or read it, is because I skimmed it, and saw something that is a spoiler, to be honest. I think I read someone died from poisoning, in the film, it's just I haven't watched the whole film yet, I said in my first reply that I have only watched the first half of it. But I can see how you might have not noticed that I said that.
So, unfortunately, I couldn't read the whole reply because I don't want spoilers on this film. And ya it's my fault for asking questions about this film, when i haven't seen the whole films yet. It's my fault that someone included a spoiler if that's the case. Because they had to to answer the question? Maybe.
If I didn't want spoilers then I shouldn't of brought up the question. So it's my fault that I can't read your reply, just yet lol.
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 21, 2018 15:39:40 GMT
The only reason I haven't considered your reply or read it, is because I skimmed it, and saw something that is a spoiler, to be honest. I think I read someone died from poisoning, in the film, it's just I haven't watched the whole film yet, I said in my first reply that I have only watched the first half of it. But I can see how you might have not noticed that I said that. So, unfortunately, I couldn't read the whole reply because I don't want spoilers on this film. Right you are! You did say you'd seen only the first half, and as I got involved in replying, completely forgot. Mea culpa. Had I remembered, there were other ways I could have written it that wouldn't have revealed any plot point.
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