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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 2:36:11 GMT
Not much talk right now on Wonder Woman 84, let alone the DC boards compared to the Marvel board, so I thought this would be an interesting discussion. This is just something I noticed and that the Wonder Woman films are following a similar path as the Captain America films. There's a lot of specific cues I'm noticing. Before you guys turn this into a shitstorm thread, I'm comparing what's better or what's worse. I'm just making observations about some comparisons and possible similar beats for future films. So please, NO TROLLS allowed.
Anyways, right off the bat, Wonder Wonder follows a similar plot structure as the first Captain America, hitting some similar beats. Besides the obvious, a superhero fighting with a shield during a World War, Diane and Steve are both kinda two anxious and "unlikely" (in-universe to their people) heroes, both a paragon virtue who believe in what's right, who want to fight even though they're basically told the odds are against them initially (Steve being frail and unfit and Diane not really understanding, and being a bit naive about 'man's world'). Nevertheless, they both go through with it with help and guidance more-or-less and stick by them during the film from a love interest (Peggy/Trevor) and they also both lose a mentor who pushed them to fight (Dr. Erskine/Antiope).
Then you got them in a contemporary world where they're both essentially a man/woman out of time and adapting. But look at where Wonder Woman 84 is going similar to Winter Soldier. It's set in 1984 during the Cold War, with the Soviet Union as a major backdrop. Obviously, during the Cold War, this was when there was a lot of espionage, so I suspect there will be some elements of that in WW84. Diane will probably be fighting the Soviets in some shape or form. Winter Soldier, while it's set in the present, takes on the 70's espionage genre. HYDRA and the Winter Soldier are more or less allegory to the Soviet Union. Stuff like that.
But then you got the villain as well. I don't know if it was a rumor or if it was ever clarified, but with Cheetah, I recall the story details say she's initially Diane's friend before she becomes Cheetah the villain. Then I read another rumor that Cheetah was actually an Amazon cast out long before Diane ever left. Anyway, if the friend-angle is correct, it's very similar to the Winter Soldier and how Bucky Barnes was Steve's friend. So I'm curious how this will play out.
These are just observations I noticed. I'm very excited about WW84. I really enjoyed the first one and Patty Jenkins is a great director and I never doubted Gal Gadot either!
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Post by DC-Fan on Aug 30, 2018 6:22:58 GMT
right off the bat, Wonder Wonder follows a similar plot structure as the first Captain America Actually, Wonder Woman is a lot different than the first Captain America. In the first Captain America, Steve Rogers couldn't pass the physical to get into the Army because he was too lazy to exercise and train like all the other soldiers did so he took a shortcut and took a super-PED. Diana started training as a teenager and trained hard for years to become a skilled warrior. |
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Aug 30, 2018 6:42:03 GMT
right off the bat, Wonder Wonder follows a similar plot structure as the first Captain America Actually, Wonder Woman is a lot different than the first Captain America. In the first Captain America, Steve Rogers couldn't pass the physical to get into the Army because he was too lazy to exercise and train like all the other soldiers did so he took a shortcut and took a super-PED. Diana started training as a teenager and trained hard for years to become a skilled warrior. I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment of Steve Rogers. He had multiple health problems that wouldn't allow him to join, but he tried and tried again. Although, what he was doing was illegal by continuously trying to do so. He certainly wasn't lazy though. He trained as hard as his body would allow when he finally was able to join.
Screenshot from CA:TFA
As for the comparisons between WW and CA, I don't see many similarities besides the fact that both were technically prequels to their cinematic universe set during a World War. Also, CA:TFA never really felt like it was WWII. Aside from Bucky's death, they didn't take it as seriously.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 12:58:33 GMT
right off the bat, Wonder Wonder follows a similar plot structure as the first Captain America Actually, Wonder Woman is a lot different than the first Captain America. In the first Captain America, Steve Rogers couldn't pass the physical to get into the Army because he was too lazy to exercise and train like all the other soldiers did so he took a shortcut and took a super-PED. Diana started training as a teenager and trained hard for years to become a skilled warrior. Mods, kick him out. He's spouting the same bullshit he's done before over and over just because he doesn't like Captain America. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Aug 30, 2018 13:24:43 GMT
Actually, Wonder Woman is a lot different than the first Captain America. In the first Captain America, Steve Rogers couldn't pass the physical to get into the Army because he was too lazy to exercise and train like all the other soldiers did so he took a shortcut and took a super-PED. Diana started training as a teenager and trained hard for years to become a skilled warrior. Mods, kick him out. He's spouting the same bullshit he's done before over and over just because he doesn't like Captain America. Just block him, dude. He's an idiot. The other day he called me a sore loser when TDK won the Best CBM tournament. Only problem is I voted for TDK the whole way. He's either mentally handicapped or just plain stupid, either way he isn't worth your time. Great points about the WW movies, though. It is a bit of a hijacking of the Captain America formula. Regardless, WW 2 is still one of my most anticipated CBMs. |
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 30, 2018 13:56:53 GMT
They’re definitely similar, though after the general premise the beats the movies hit aren’t identical (especially’s WW’s surprisingly well-done fish-out-of-water story in London, which I found the movie’s best part). I think the world wars setting makes them seem more similar, though, as the storytelling and character paradigms (unlikely hero with deep morals overcomes obstacles, sets out on journey against hard and bitter world, defeats a villain who is in many ways his opposite, returns wiser—the basic Joseph Campbell [or, perhaps, George Lucas?  ] outline) are shared with many other, less-similar movies. Cut out of the same mold, yes; identical, no. (Also, I liked Dr. Stanley Tucci and Col. Tommy Lee Jones more than the Amazons, while I liked and connected more with the group Steve Trevor gets together more than the group Steve Rogers gets together [Bucky excepted].) Anyway. Speaking of George Lucas, WW reminded me a great deal of a Young Indiana Jones episode I saw recently, the second half of Masks of Evil. While Masks goes in a completely different direction (horror, vampires, yada yada yada), the getting-the-band-together and the personalities of said band-members are similar to those in Wonder Woman. I’m looking forward to Wonder Woman 2, but I’m going to miss the World War I setting, which isn’t really covered by the movies. For a not-all-that-experienced director, Patty Jenkins pulled it off with aplomb. |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 30, 2018 15:32:11 GMT
I hope not.
Cap 2 was essentially the Star Wars storyline. Which was fine. But Cap 3 lost the main character and his arch enemies and became about the Avengers and Tony's mommy issues, and SM and BP origins.
That lack of focus and continuity should not happen to this trilogy, it should be centered on Diana with maybe some sparse cameo and genuin WW characters.
Artistically, this should be a female counterweight trilogy to TDK.
Ideally, the first one plays in WWI, the second one is now or a few decades past, and teh last one plays in the dystopian future a la Logan and teh Knightmare we saw in BvS.
Epic. Do it.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 30, 2018 15:41:42 GMT
I haven’t seen Cap 3, Tristan's Journal, but I definitely second you in saying it should be about Diana, not the others. I’m even sicker than before of shared universes. |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Aug 30, 2018 15:56:45 GMT
I haven’t seen Cap 3, Tristan's Journal , but I definitely second you in saying it should be about Diana, not the others. I’m even sicker than before of shared universes. yes, I want a trilogy that stands on it's own narratively and creates an cohesive, classical arc, ranging from the birth to the end of Diana. Ironically, you sort of get this with the Snyder trilogy, featuring the birth of superman, then his glory, corruption and death, and then his resurrection and becoming an icon. Similar with Nolan's TDK trilogy.
Each Diana installment must have a piece of crucial character development. Part 1 was about her finding what is worth fighting for and losing her naivite regarding the nature of man.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 16:08:19 GMT
I hope not.
Cap 2 was essentially the Star Wars storyline. Which was fine. But Cap 3 lost the main character and his arch enemies and became about the Avengers and Tony's mommy issues, and SM and BP origins.
That lack of focus and continuity should not happen to this trilogy, it should be centered on Diana with maybe some sparse cameo and genuin WW characters.
Artistically, this should be a female counterweight trilogy to TDK.
Ideally, the first one plays in WWI, the second one is now or a few decades past, and teh last one plays in the dystopian future a la Logan and teh Knightmare we saw in BvS.
Epic. Do it.
I take issue with people saying Civil War is just another Avenger film just because it has all the characters in it. It's not though, because the purpose of the Avengers and an Avengers film is fighting otherworldly threats to Earth. Civil War is more a character piece for each Avenger, but it revolves mostly around Steve Roger and his friendship and commitment to Bucky. So the focus of Roger (considering he's a fugitive by the end of the film) is still there and still makes it a Captain America film. It was also Spider-Man and Black Panther introduction into the series, but neither was an origin-telling story because it wasn't necessary. As great as Wonder Woman is, it'll never hold a candle to The Dark Knight series on an artistic merit (with the exception of maybe Rises (Good performances, bad script)). It would be a mistake to set Wonder Woman in a dystopian future. For starters, the future was technically averted when Superman got himself killed. From what I gathered from it, it only occurred because Lois was somehow killed and Superman blamed Batman for it. Unfortunately, the Knightmare sequence still hasn't been properly explained, so it's all theory and speculation. If anything, the third film ideally should take place in the present after another major event (another Justice League-scale film). If you bring it into a dystopian future, then it will just mess up the timeline like the X-Men did. Logan gets away with because it kinda plays on both timelines that were created, but never went into detail about it and just moved on. Not too mention, they've kinda threw out continuity anyways just to do whatever they want with the films. But if they're still continuing the Justice League films and each individual member's film, unless they've given up on a cinematic universe and doing their own thing, then each one will have to build up to that dystopian future. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Aug 30, 2018 16:12:44 GMT
The big thing that I would say puts WW over the first Captain America film is that it does a better job of depicting the horrors of war.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 16:25:50 GMT
The big thing that I would say puts WW over the first Captain America film is that it does a better job of depicting the horrors of war. Oh I agree with that. I like Wonder Woman better than Captain America. But the point of this thread isn't about which is better and which did what better. I'm just pointing out similar cues that Wonder Woman is taking from the Captain America films only. |
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Aug 30, 2018 16:45:58 GMT
I haven’t seen Cap 3, Tristan's Journal, but I definitely second you in saying it should be about Diana, not the others. I’m even sicker than before of shared universes. Yeah that's something that I liked about Doctor Strange. Outside of the use of the Infinity Stone, it was it's own little story that focus on Stephen Strange journey. I hope that marvel goes back to that in phase 4. At least do it with a couple of films. |
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Post by politicidal on Aug 30, 2018 16:59:21 GMT
If this means we're building towards some version of Kingdom Come in Wonder Woman 3, I'm game.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Aug 30, 2018 18:54:43 GMT
the Wonder Woman films are following a similar path as the Captain America films. There are similarities. The characters have a certain American patriot thing going on (even though they downplayed it with WW and she's technically Greek). The first movie takes place during a world war. The 2nd movie will have a character who died in the first movie return (or will they?).
I think the test will be the third WW movie. That one should see her catch up to the modern day, and it will be interesting to see how that goes, what with the other Justice League members being available to interact with. Also, it will stretch credulity if they include Chris Pine in that one too. How will they handle that? Who knows.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Aug 30, 2018 23:58:18 GMT
If this means we're building towards some version of Kingdom Come in Wonder Woman 3, I'm game. Technically Kingdom Come did come before Civil War. Either way, I'd be game for it too! |
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Post by ShadowSouL: Padawan of Yoda on Sept 3, 2018 20:23:13 GMT
Not really.
The first films of each, yes, since they were set in the two world wars in the first half of the 20th century, essentially vintage period pieces.
But by the end of The First Avenger and the next two movies, Captain America had moved into the present day.
In Wonder Woman's second movie, she's still stuck in the past, well over thirty years ago, so the Wonder Woman franchise is still a period piece.
Doesn't mean 1984 will not be a fun, entertaining movie, though.
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] outline) are shared with many other, less-similar movies. Cut out of the same mold, yes; identical, no.
