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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 22:19:32 GMT
I would be surprised if pity was high on the list of reasons people like Tyrion. I understand you like Tyrion for his intellect, the same way you took Mockingbird as a user name. You write intelligent posts and like intelligent characters. You know, however, that displaying intelligence, no matter in what way, doesn't make people popular. It makes TV characters popular. Intelligence and wit are the reasons I hear most for people liking Tyrion. His dialogue is amusing and witty, people enjoy that. I do like those things about him, and also that he's a fairly decent guy ('Fairly' decent, I know we've been here before).
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 21, 2017 1:54:19 GMT
I understand you like Tyrion for his intellect, the same way you took Mockingbird as a user name. You write intelligent posts and like intelligent characters. You know, however, that displaying intelligence, no matter in what way, doesn't make people popular. It makes TV characters popular. Intelligence and wit are the reasons I hear most for people liking Tyrion. His dialogue is amusing and witty, people enjoy that. I do like those things about him, and also that he's a fairly decent guy ('Fairly' decent, I know we've been here before). There is a difference indeed in the way people see fictional characters in some forms of entertainment. The less realistic it is in terms of human characterisation, the more skewed this becomes and this is most obvious in comedy. I'm pretty sure most do like Black Adder, Baldric or the queen, not because of their personality but simply for the impact they have. So when it comes to Tyrion, as for the Queen of Thorns, I wonder if people like their personality as much as the fact that they win verbal arguments or at least successfully deal verbal blows the same way they like a winning fighter. Give the fighter a "cause" they somehow identify with and you make them favourites.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2017 20:22:38 GMT
Of course, you're absolutely right that part of the appeal of characters like Tyrion and Olenna is their verbal sparring skills. It's impressive if we suspend disbelief and ignore that fact that people don't usually have a handy witticism and expert timing at those crucial moments. More like hours later we think 'Aww I should have said [insert expertly timed witticism], that would have been awesome!... and probably labeled me an asshole forever'.
The comedy of their dialogue is appealing and yes, it does warm me to a character that I may not be bothered about otherwise. But I think I'd still like Tyrion if he wasn't a witty little bugger. I'd not enjoy his scenes as much, but I'd still like him because in my opinion he's one of the good guys. Compared to a character like John Snow, I 'like' John because he's a decent bloke, but he's not one of my favourite characters because he's not as entertaining. So yeah, this is a long winded way of saying that there are characters I enjoy, and characters I 'like', Tyrion is both for me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 13:01:50 GMT
Daenerys Targaryen
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Post by Marv on Mar 31, 2017 13:04:11 GMT
White Walker ftw
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Seto
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Post by Seto on May 12, 2017 0:55:56 GMT
Team Stark all the way!!!!
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Post by bluerisk on May 26, 2017 11:05:17 GMT
Why only that few? I root for team Sansa.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 26, 2017 11:26:09 GMT
Why only that few? I root for team Sansa. Sansa is Cersei's heir.
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Post by bluerisk on May 26, 2017 12:02:50 GMT
Why only that few? I root for team Sansa. Sansa is Cersei's heir. Well, I agree that Sansa is still married to Tyrion: there was no annulment, and the consummation is not bound to a time limit - in war times couple often married only with the husband marching right out of the church to war - and more so, there was no Ramsay Bolton: his naturalization was depended on a royal degree that became null and void the day he betrayed the crown. But she was officially married to a Bolton, and not to the actual bastard that was standing aside of her only prentending to be a Bolton. And even if he had been a Bolton, it would have still needed the royal annulment mentioned above. As we know from our history - Henry VIII - divorce was not an easy thing back then, and Sansa is the key to the entire North, and even the Lannister could need a young female of the highest rank to produce new heirs for their house. In the eye of the law, in the eye of the Iron throne, she is still married to Tyrion of House Lannister. OK, given the North is independend now - that would still make Ramsay a bastard, and since the Stark won, they decide. But since they can't cut all connections to the rest of the realm, I think her marriage with Tyrion still stands - even with the confirmation of Cercei and if it is only to hurt her. If Dany wins - and she knows how important marriages are - she make find it useful if Sansa could bear the heirs to two of the most important houses and end a conflict for good by joining their blood...and Sansa is also no longer searching for a galant knight. I can see a team Dany/Jon + Tyrion/Sansa. Like Cercei, she will keep her family name, but her children will be heirs to both, and even Cercei knows that house Lannisters need strong heirs - Tyrion, who is said to be Tywin's actual heir, and a tall and healthy Sansa.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 26, 2017 12:13:13 GMT
Sansa is Cersei's heir in spirit. This is what matters. The rest will be details. Daenerys will die, that much is obvious. Jon is most likely meant to die again too. He was only brought back to be used.
Sansa is a realist who will think of herself first and rely on traditions and hierarchies. It makes her Cersei's daughter in the segmentation game. She's not an inclusive.
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Seto
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Post by Seto on Jun 14, 2017 9:01:57 GMT
Why only that few? I root for team Sansa. Sansa is Cersei's heir.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jun 15, 2017 17:43:24 GMT
Well, I agree that Sansa is still married to Tyrion: there was no annulment, and the consummation is not bound to a time limit - in war times couple often married only with the husband marching right out of the church to war - and more so, there was no Ramsay Bolton: his naturalization was depended on a royal degree that became null and void the day he betrayed the crown. The same can be said of Tyrion, who became very much a persona non grata when he killed his old man - if he wasn't already condemned to die, which would effectively strip him of all his titles and honours anyway (he would be legally dead from the moment of sentencing, in the absence of a pardon - which is not likely to be forthcoming). So as far as the Lannisters are concerned, Tyrion is dead - and the marriage to Sansa was never consummated, and can now never be - even if they do wind up having sex at some point. As for Ramsay's betrayal - his marriage to Sansa was still valid, and would have effectively annulled any previous betrothal since that marriage was consummated. "In spirit" never counts. The right to rule is all about the details. And I don't see how Sansa is Cersei's heir in spirit, anyway - I'd say you might be able to argue a case based on technicalities, but "in spirit" least of all.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 15, 2017 18:04:45 GMT
"In spirit" never counts. The right to rule is all about the details. And I don't see how Sansa is Cersei's heir in spirit, anyway - I'd say you might be able to argue a case based on technicalities, but "in spirit" least of all. It does more than you think. Think of Sansa as the last representative of the feudal tradition with the right family name in the North. This is what can bring lesser lords to rally behind her. We are not talking about a court of law deciding who will rule but of people deciding behind which banner they will set their forces.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jun 15, 2017 18:14:28 GMT
"In spirit" never counts. The right to rule is all about the details. And I don't see how Sansa is Cersei's heir in spirit, anyway - I'd say you might be able to argue a case based on technicalities, but "in spirit" least of all. It does more than you think. Think of Sansa as the last representative of the feudal tradition with the right family name in the North. This is what can bring lesser lords to rally behind her. We are not talking about a court of law deciding who will rule but of people deciding behind which banner they will set their forces. The reason they rally behind her is because she is a Stark, by blood - a detail. Jon Snow was never Ned's heir, because although he was his son in spirit, because he was a bastard he would never be recognised except as a last resort. As we have seen, it was only now that the Starks have been made all but extinct that the Northerners were willing to rally behind him, and why? Because he was Ned's son. It is only the legalese which counts. Ironically, as it now turns out that Rhaegar Targaryen was Jon Snow's real father, this would give Jon a claim to the Iron Throne - in spite of the fact that he was never Rhaegar's heir in spirit. The right to rule is not just about winning the support of your followers, but once you have the throne you have to have the acknowledgement by the rest of the population, who were never your followers, that you have the right to sit there. This is why the details are really all that matters, because it brings to the table a set of rules that everyone can agree on. Another case in point: Tyrion was never Tywin's son in spirit - Tywin hated his guts. But because Tyrion was still of his blood, Tyrion was still considered a Lannister and a candidate for succession. Tywin recognised this, spirit or no spirit. And another one: Joffrey was Robert's son in spirit, but his actual father was Jaime. This was kept secret because if it had gotten out, it would have destroyed Joffrey's legal claim despite being the recognised son of Robert. It wouldn't matter how much Robert had always been Joffrey's father in spirit - it's always the details that count.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 16, 2017 6:19:34 GMT
It does more than you think. Think of Sansa as the last representative of the feudal tradition with the right family name in the North. This is what can bring lesser lords to rally behind her. We are not talking about a court of law deciding who will rule but of people deciding behind which banner they will set their forces. The reason they rally behind her is because she is a Stark, by blood - a detail. Jon Snow was never Ned's heir, because although he was his son in spirit, because he was a bastard he would never be recognised except as a last resort. As we have seen, it was only now that the Starks have been made all but extinct that the Northerners were willing to rally behind him, and why? Because he was Ned's son. It is only the legalese which counts. Ironically, as it now turns out that Rhaegar Targaryen was Jon Snow's real father, this would give Jon a claim to the Iron Throne - in spite of the fact that he was never Rhaegar's heir in spirit. The right to rule is not just about winning the support of your followers, but once you have the throne you have to have the acknowledgement by the rest of the population, who were never your followers, that you have the right to sit there. This is why the details are really all that matters, because it brings to the table a set of rules that everyone can agree on. Another case in point: Tyrion was never Tywin's son in spirit - Tywin hated his guts. But because Tyrion was still of his blood, Tyrion was still considered a Lannister and a candidate for succession. Tywin recognised this, spirit or no spirit. And another one: Joffrey was Robert's son in spirit, but his actual father was Jaime. This was kept secret because if it had gotten out, it would have destroyed Joffrey's legal claim despite being the recognised son of Robert. It wouldn't matter how much Robert had always been Joffrey's father in spirit - it's always the details that count. Feudal lords will rally behind Sansa Stark because she furthers the feudal system like Cersei, while the opposing alternative is that of the wheel breakers who want to dispossess them (Daenerys, Tyrion) and a Fool in the North who never even wanted to be king. This is what I mean by heir in spirit. They stand for the same thing. Jon Snow won't want the Iron Throne either nor will anyone want to give it to him apart from fans. There is no pro-Targaryen party in Westeros. The Northerners made him king so he would get himself killed in the coming war I foresee conflict between Sansa and Jon on just this kind of matter. She will want to consider political allies and he will just want to "do the right thing" regardless of the cost. He'll get himself killed again as a result and she'll emerge on top.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jun 16, 2017 10:38:17 GMT
The reason they rally behind her is because she is a Stark, by blood - a detail. Jon Snow was never Ned's heir, because although he was his son in spirit, because he was a bastard he would never be recognised except as a last resort. As we have seen, it was only now that the Starks have been made all but extinct that the Northerners were willing to rally behind him, and why? Because he was Ned's son. It is only the legalese which counts. Ironically, as it now turns out that Rhaegar Targaryen was Jon Snow's real father, this would give Jon a claim to the Iron Throne - in spite of the fact that he was never Rhaegar's heir in spirit. The right to rule is not just about winning the support of your followers, but once you have the throne you have to have the acknowledgement by the rest of the population, who were never your followers, that you have the right to sit there. This is why the details are really all that matters, because it brings to the table a set of rules that everyone can agree on. Another case in point: Tyrion was never Tywin's son in spirit - Tywin hated his guts. But because Tyrion was still of his blood, Tyrion was still considered a Lannister and a candidate for succession. Tywin recognised this, spirit or no spirit. And another one: Joffrey was Robert's son in spirit, but his actual father was Jaime. This was kept secret because if it had gotten out, it would have destroyed Joffrey's legal claim despite being the recognised son of Robert. It wouldn't matter how much Robert had always been Joffrey's father in spirit - it's always the details that count. Feudal lords will rally behind Sansa Stark because she furthers the feudal system like Cersei, while the opposing alternative is that of the wheel breakers who want to dispossess them (Daenerys, Tyrion) and a Fool in the North who never even wanted to be king. This is what I mean by heir in spirit. They stand for the same thing. But any one of the people who support Sansa possess the same spirit - are they all Cersei's heirs "in spirit"? If it is revealed that Jon Snow is a Targaryen, there will be (formed by his supporters). What makes you say that? That's like saying people voted for Trump so he could get impeached. I think there will be conflict, yes - but I don't think she'll end up on top because Jon "gets himself killed". There will be rivalry between the two because they have different ideas as to how to achieve their goals (and perhaps different goals altogether), and Sansa will be wary of how Jon having the most support among the people (which now includes the Wildlings). There could be civil war, or Jon may be assassinated by Sansa's supporters. Realistically, Sansa may be assassinated by Jon's supporters just as easily, but story-wise I don't think that'll happen.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 8, 2017 13:15:14 GMT
If we're talking about which I consider the best person as opposed to who I find the most entertaining, then it's Jon. He seems to care about everyone and has no desire for personal glory.
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northernlad
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Post by northernlad on Aug 8, 2017 14:11:33 GMT
Hmmm...I couldn't vote in this. I wonder why?
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 8, 2017 14:56:03 GMT
If we're talking about which I consider the best person as opposed to who I find the most entertaining, then it's Jon. He seems to care about everyone and has no desire for personal glory. The question here is whom you would be most likely to side with in the long run on the basis of personal affinity. We may decide to support people we do not necessarily like because what they make happen serves our interest. If Jon Snow is the one bringing up a solution against a real threat, I'll probably "vote" for him no matter how much I like him, meaning I'll support his endeavour for the time of need. In the long run, however, my heart will be with another. I'll want that other to be the one who emerges unscathed, I'll be feeling for that other in a way much more intimate than for the one who fulfills the perfunctory purpose of saving my skin or making me live better. I'll be grateful to the latter (Jon in the case of example), maybe even loyal in return but it won't make me like him. It has nothing to do with entertaining value. This is not about which character you most enjoy seeing on screen. Joffrey was great entertainment and brilliantly portrayed. Drogon is quite a spectacle too. These are not on offer. It's about who makes you feel most in tune, who best confirms you in your views, attitude or values.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2017 15:27:16 GMT
Cersei of course she is the savior of Westeros.
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