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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 15, 2017 10:38:15 GMT
Whom do you side with? Is it Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys or Cersei ? Like it or not, there are three "main" characters in the story and they are all in explicit or implicit opposition to a fourth which the authors mean to incarnate "the root of all evil today". The threat of White Walkers is merely a plot device to influence the interaction of the main characters in the final phase of the story. The show has turned the three "protagonists" into archetypes just like marketing experts resort to segmentation. Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion are streamlined to appeal to complementary types of inclusiveness while the "antagonist" is given demanding characteristics and exclusive values.  The quotes attributed to the characters are not taken from the script. They summarise their attitude towards their closest partners in the story. This can be generalized to a more general position they take in life which in turn defines which part of the audience they will attract. Tyrion seeks recognition from anyone. He went to see his father expecting “a bit of gratitude” in Season 3, trusts Varys because he tells him he’s good at his job and “can cast a large shadow”, believes his sister always wanted him dead and suffers from the feeling of being rejected by the whole world. If compassion is your thing, if you are attracted to people you can help or make feel better, Tyrion is your man and you probably want to see him ride a dragon sometime. Jon doesn't have any particular desires or goals. He wants to do what’s right and be considered appropriately. In Season 1, he wanted to become a ranger because he thought he already had the fighting skills, not because he was the son of a lord. He resents being called a bastard because he feels it is an artificial categorisation without relation to what he can be or do. He befriended the fat coward others instinctively reject. He basically stands for equality of rights and will give anyone a chance to prove themselves, somehow. He fell in love with the first woman who wanted him because he’ll find something in anyone, really, unless they become traitors or rebelling officers. If your motto is “live and let live”, if tolerance is one of your highest values, if you’re not picky on your food unless it wants to eat you, if your main quality is to be nice or fair to others, you are probably partial to Jon. Daenerys is a fighter who gets really angry at things she dislikes. She feels she was chosen to rule the world and wants to save it from “injustice” and pain. She gives loud speeches in which she promises the impossible to whoever will join her and help her get it. She uses whatever attraction she has to get what she wants. She tried to tell Drogo about getting the “Iron Chair”, told Jorah her dragons are the only children she’ll ever have and he can help her get them back, told Tyrion she would “break the wheel” with his help. She even chose all Dothraki as bloodriders to better get them behind her and ask “more of them than any Khal ever would”. If your basic thought is that the world is bad and needs to see “progress” at any cost, if you’ll value any well-meaning change as a step in the right direction, if your main wish it to make it happen or just cheer at those who do, if you’re still pissed off at missing the Nuremberg, no sorry, Dothraki Sea rally and planning to be at the next one, wherever it is, then you must be a Daenerys supporter. Cersei doesn't like anything unless it has proven its value. She was badly disappointed before and won’t let it happen again (“love no one…”). She doesn't trust people for their intentions, good or bad, because she understands how the world works and knows the rabble for what it is. She is selective in everything and will let you know her favour comes at the price of excellence. If you are confident in your ability to thrive or find your place amidst free competition, if you want the world to be a place where the difference you make is considered, if you want to be "This One" instead of "Equal No. 123456", the Lannisters are the rulers you need. If not, you’ll go for one of the inclusive parties and keep demonising Cersei or her father. |
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 15, 2017 21:47:42 GMT
I might have sided with Tyrion if he was not so close to Dany. Stannis is dead in the show so I will pick Jon (especially because Ser Davos is with Jon).
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 16, 2017 1:51:24 GMT
I might have sided with Tyrion if he was not so close to Dany. I have hopes he will end up designing a faulty saddle for her. It's the closest he could get to some sort of attempt at redemption  |
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Post by Winter_King on Mar 16, 2017 16:35:23 GMT
 I don't care about anyone else. |
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Post by movielover on Mar 16, 2017 16:36:28 GMT
Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 16, 2017 17:35:49 GMT
Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister. You have to pick one. |
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Post by movielover on Mar 16, 2017 21:49:39 GMT
Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister. You have to pick one. I already voted for Jon Snow. But those are far and away my 2 favorite characters. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 22:32:28 GMT
You really don't like Tyrion do you? I think there's a tad more to him than that. It's not that he craves recognition as such, but more that someone else getting the credit for his work and him being shafted sticks in his craw, as it would almost anyone. That's the one thing that stopped me being a massive Tywin fan, he underestimated and undermined Tyrion who in my opinion would have been the most useful of all his kids to him if given the chance.
I would side with Tyrion or John, but not for the reasons you've stated.
Tyrion: Nothing to do with compassion or wanting to help people (not that it's a bad thing, it's just not my thing when it comes to characters). Tyrion is a realist and he's good at ruling. He enjoys it, he was pissed off not because he didn't get praise, but because he was prevented from continuing with something he enjoyed and was good at. Sure he would like his father to recognise him but not for the sake of his ego, he knows he's good at it and is frustrated that his father, the great military leader, refuses to make use of him because of some irrational hatred. He won't acknowledge what is obviously there which is very frustrating.
Jon: Partly for the reasons you stated, yes I believe in merit over birth, fairness and all that and I do have a 'live and let live' attitude. John does have a goal, his goal is to protect people, all people from what's beyond the wall. But when (if) we discover that the white walkers, like the wildlings, are not the bad guys after all, I wonder what he'll do then.
Daenerys: Too idealistic and unrealistic. Idealism isn't a bad thing if it's combined with realism (enter Tyrion) but Daenerys doesn't see the bigger picture and is far too rash with her decisions, even if they are well meant. She needs decent advisors to guide her. But credit to her, she does listen to people so maybe with Tyrion alongside she'll be great. You know I'm anticipating a Tyrion / Daenerys / Jon triarchy.
Cersei: No way! Unless you're a pretty Lannister (which I'm not) you're screwed. She has no shits to give anyone else.
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 17, 2017 5:46:06 GMT
You really don't like Tyrion do you? I think there's a tad more to him than that. It's not that he craves recognition as such, but more that someone else getting the credit for his work and him being shafted sticks in his craw, as it would almost anyone. That's the one thing that stopped me being a massive Tywin fan, he underestimated and undermined Tyrion who in my opinion would have been the most useful of all his kids to him if given the chance. I would side with Tyrion or John, but not for the reasons you've stated. Tyrion: Nothing to do with compassion or wanting to help people (not that it's a bad thing, it's just not my thing when it comes to characters). Tyrion is a realist and he's good at ruling. He enjoys it, he was pissed off not because he didn't get praise, but because he was prevented from continuing with something he enjoyed and was good at. Sure he would like his father to recognise him but not for the sake of his ego, he knows he's good at it and is frustrated that his father, the great military leader, refuses to make use of him because of some irrational hatred. He won't acknowledge what is obviously there which is very frustrating. Jon: Partly for the reasons you stated, yes I believe in merit over birth, fairness and all that and I do have a 'live and let live' attitude. John does have a goal, his goal is to protect people, all people from what's beyond the wall. But when (if) we discover that the white walkers, like the wildlings, are not the bad guys after all, I wonder what he'll do then. Daenerys: Too idealistic and unrealistic. Idealism isn't a bad thing if it's combined with realism (enter Tyrion) but Daenerys doesn't see the bigger picture and is far too rash with her decisions, even if they are well meant. She needs decent advisors to guide her. But credit to her, she does listen to people so maybe with Tyrion alongside she'll be great. You know I'm anticipating a Tyrion / Daenerys / Jon triarchy. Cersei: No way! Unless you're a pretty Lannister (which I'm not) you're screwed. She has no shits to give anyone else. Hey @aj Nice to finally see you in a topic that I have also posted on. At least 4 people have so far tagged you when they actually wanted to tag me because they don't know that tagging works on basis of registration ID and not display names. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 17, 2017 6:07:02 GMT
I might have sided with Tyrion if he was not so close to Dany. Stannis is dead in the show so I will pick Jon (especially because Ser Davos is with Jon). Were you a Stannis supporter all along? The showrunners have expressed surprise at his popularity as would marketing people who underestimated a market segment. Supposing there should be room for a 5th "main character" based on core selection motives, would you rather see Stannis or Davos there? |
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 17, 2017 6:18:59 GMT
I might have sided with Tyrion if he was not so close to Dany. Stannis is dead in the show so I will pick Jon (especially because Ser Davos is with Jon). Were you a Stannis supporter all along? The showrunners have expressed surprise at his popularity as would marketing people who underestimated a market segment. Supposing there should be room for a 5th "main character" based on core selection motives, would you rather see Stannis or Davos there? You identified me correctly. Not an outright Stannis supporter but I always supported Stannis and Ser Davos combo. I liked how King Stannis stressed on importance of duty and i also liked reasonability and courage shown by Ser Davos. Not every courage is shown in battle field. Ser Davos was truly courageous in being genuine and acted as a perfect compliment for King Stannis. I was sad when Stannis died. I would now like to see Ser Davos play an important role till the end and won't mind even if Jon dies in the war against white walkers. Ser Davos should live till end though i know that he will not be the main character at any time. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 17, 2017 7:51:06 GMT
You really don't like Tyrion do you? I think there's a tad more to him than that. There is more to all of them. I have described what I see as the main differentiator, the core characteristic which will help people make their choice not of a favourite candidate, because that one is maybe not in the final round but of preferred compromise. No I don’t like Tyrion at all; or rather I dislike what the show has made as well as revealed of him. I used to like Tyrion. He clearly was a favourite in the first two seasons, smart, witty and strong minded. When he served sharp sarcasm to Cersei in S2E01, I was on the grinning side because he was right and yes, Cersei had been unable to prevent major issues, even though she wasn’t to blame for them. I also liked the Tyrion who had been put in charge by his father and was working to win his esteem by being up to the task. Tyrion was the character who made me see the Lannisters from a neutral point of view in Season 1. I liked Tywin from the start and never disliked Cersei in spite of killing the direwolf (I never liked dogs, so, fine) but Tyrion was the seed of critical observation. If he was the innocent all too lightly accused by the Starks, what was to think of the general suspicions towards the Lannisters? Cersei made clear in her conversation with Robert that they were not the spiders out to devour everyone but the actual root of the stability of the king’s reign (“holding it together”) and therefore of the kingdoms. When the man who had consciously risked a feudal war for a principle lost his head, I had lost all sympathy for him, even though I shook mine at Joffrey’s lack of political sense. Tyrion’s character, however, started to slide to something else in Season 3 and abruptly fell off my sympathies in Season 4. I didn’t notice it right away. I bought into the pity he inspired without seeing it as a self-amplified flaw until it came to his trial. When he declared he was “guilty of being a dwarf” and cursed a whole city for what he himself thought to be a ploy by his father or his sister, Tyrion died. Looking back, I realized he had been consumed by self-pity all along and was seeing ghosts. The character had been turned into a pity magnet; the authors had turned him into that beggar who sits on his leg to feign an amputation, except that the beggar didn’t even know he was cheating. This continued right up to Season 6: when he told Theon he had been making jokes about his height in Winterfell, this is something he fantasised. His meeting with Theon in S1E04 went the other way around, with Tyrion mocking the Ironborn, his family and calling him a lackey. In S3E01, Tyrion went to his father to ask for “a bit of gratitude”. Fine, I expected him to want to make a report of his activities and achievements. I thought Cersei would have made him look bad or herself look better and he would want to restore the truth. It seems she didn’t, we only saw Tyrion expecting she would. All along, we saw Tyrion expecting to be mistreated more than it actually happened. So he went to ask for the impossible, for Casterly Rock, only so Tywin would be given a chance to reject him in the most despising manner and viewers would be led to pity the poor guy. Later in the season, Tywin made him Master of Coins, a crucial position of responsibility and decided to marry him to “the key to the North”.  Cersei was right, Tyrion was receiving more than he deserved. He was being given more responsibility and recognition than anyone in the family but he turned it all into victimization for no serious reason. He made a whole drama of Sansa being too young as if he were forced to consummate the marriage there and then. In S3E06, the self-pity master ends a conversation with Cersei about their respective fates with “in any case I am truly fucked”. Objectively, Cersei had to marry a man who had no interest in her and would take her away from all she cared for, Loras would have to marry that lioness against her wish and Sansa was to marry the dwarf of the family at war with hers but Tyrion saw himself as the one who was “truly fucked”. Well, fuck you Tyrion, you lost me there. So I dislike Tyrion for being a self-pitying, entitled fool but I dislike the use the show makes of this even more, turning him into an inflated pity magnet in the apparently most serious way. Sometime I wonder how much of this is conscious misdirection on the writers’ part. I think Tywin gave Tyrion chances, more than once, and they were not taken as such but as unfair demands. Tywin forced himself to see past his personal distaste and resentment; he gave Tyrion education, power, positions and an important bride “because he was his son”, “because he was a Lannister”, but that wasn’t enough for Tyrion. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 17, 2017 10:48:10 GMT
Jon: Partly for the reasons you stated, yes I believe in merit over birth, fairness and all that and I do have a 'live and let live' attitude. John does have a goal, his goal is to protect people, all people from what's beyond the wall. But when (if) we discover that the white walkers, like the wildlings, are not the bad guys after all, I wonder what he'll do then. until his sister came to kick his arse and make him take Winterfell for her. I have no doubt White Walkers are dangerous and aggressive but I feel their intent is not invasion or unlimited destruction. Their behaviour has been one of terrorism rather than conquest. They let that guy go for a reason in the Prologue and their use of symbols must have some meaning to those who see them. Sam was also purposefully left alive by the White Walker who saw him at the end of S2. The one he killed in S3 merely shoved him aside. After what we saw at Hardhome, there is no explaining why they wouldn’t have slaughtered Mance Raider’s people if this had been their intention. It makes Jon and Sam look like fools for not putting these things together. They end up like coming back from the jungle saying they saw tigers and they think they are coming to invade our cities and eat us all. “Shere Khan is coming”. Does this frighten you?Book readers will rightly observe that these are all show inventions. In the books, the survivor of the Prologue hides in a tree, Sam is just lucky to escape after killing a White Walker, there is no spiral of dead horses on display at the Fist of the First Men (unless I am mistaken) and Hardhome does not happen that way. Jon has less information and therefore more reasons to take the risk of invasion that seriously but unless the show is planting all these hints for pure misdirection, I expect the White Walkers to be no threat at all south of the Wall, unless some idiot brings it down. In the show, Jon is seriously jumping to conclusions like fools so often do and I cannot help seeing the reference to “the Great War” as a direct parallel to the belief that the First World War, also known as “the Great War”, was a survival fight of cultures against a demonized enemy (a belief which was cultivated on both sides, ironically). |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 9:22:50 GMT
Hey @aj Nice to finally see you in a topic that I have also posted on. At least 4 people have so far tagged you when they actually wanted to tag me because they don't know that tagging works on basis of registration ID and not display names. Hi  Oh dear, I did wonder why I'd been tagged on some random threads. I don't think there's a way to change registration ID is there? If there is, I'll change it to avoid confusion. I'm not attached to my ID, it was just quick to type. |
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 18, 2017 11:42:45 GMT
Hey @aj Nice to finally see you in a topic that I have also posted on. At least 4 people have so far tagged you when they actually wanted to tag me because they don't know that tagging works on basis of registration ID and not display names. Hi Oh dear, I did wonder why I'd been tagged on some random threads. I don't think there's a way to change registration ID is there? If there is, I'll change it to avoid confusion. I'm not attached to my ID, it was just quick to type. I think unfortunately you can't change. Though I understand sometimes it might bother you to get tagged for no reason. But if I see anyone tagging you I will remove the tag so that you don't get notification when you login. And nice to know you are a GOT fan. It's the best show I have ever seen in my life and it is always nice to meet another GOT fan.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 18:22:47 GMT
Hi Oh dear, I did wonder why I'd been tagged on some random threads. I don't think there's a way to change registration ID is there? If there is, I'll change it to avoid confusion. I'm not attached to my ID, it was just quick to type. I think unfortunately you can't change. Though I understand sometimes it might bother you to get tagged for no reason. But if I see anyone tagging you I will remove the tag so that you don't get notification when you login. And nice to know you are a GOT fan. It's the best show I have ever seen in my life and it is always nice to meet another GOT fan. It doesn't bother me, I was just concerned that you might be missing posts that were meant for your attention. No worries with the notifications |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 18:32:16 GMT
This one scene, yes, but Tyrion showed more concern for Sansa than himself in general regarding their marriage. He has compassion for other people, he shows pity, and yes, sometimes he chucks some his own way as well, but he doesn't do it in a whiny way, more just stating the facts. I still don't see him as self pitying and I would be surprised if pity was high on the list of reasons people like Tyrion.
(Sorry I've tagged this rather than quoted. I haven't figured out how to remove quote boxes when there are several and it all gets a bit messy when there are several quotes)
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 19, 2017 5:48:40 GMT
I think unfortunately you can't change. Though I understand sometimes it might bother you to get tagged for no reason. But if I see anyone tagging you I will remove the tag so that you don't get notification when you login. And nice to know you are a GOT fan. It's the best show I have ever seen in my life and it is always nice to meet another GOT fan. It doesn't bother me, I was just concerned that you might be missing posts that were meant for your attention. No worries with the notifications Thanks. Just as we were talking it seems Admin has made changes and tag ID of a user is now displayed right below the user's display name. So this should help more people become aware of how to tag correctly. Like it displays @ aj below your profile pic and aj1june below my mine. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 19, 2017 7:02:12 GMT
This one scene, yes, but Tyrion showed more concern for Sansa than himself in general regarding their marriage. He has compassion for other people, he shows pity, and yes, sometimes he chucks some his own way as well, but he doesn't do it in a whiny way, more just stating the facts. I still don't see him as self pitying and I would be surprised if pity was high on the list of reasons people like Tyrion. I see Tyrion inventing "facts" rather than stating them. In S3E01, he feared his sister wanted to have him murdered when she came to visit and received her with an axe in hand. In S3E10 Cersei tells him how to do something good for Sansa:  He suspects her of trying to influence him to please their father. In this he perfectly represents the all too common opinion of those who decided never to trust anything Cersei says and always look for a devious intent instead. Cersei, however, is anything but devious. She is straightforward to a fault, telling people blunt truth in their face. In S4 he will tell Oberyn she always wanted him dead which is simply not true. Cersei wants Tyrion dead because she thinks he killed her son and she believes this only because he threatened her in S2E08 ("one day your joy will turn into ash in your mouth and you'll know the debt is paid"). She doesn't know he didn't mean it and was only acting to keep Shae safe. He also believes his father wants him dead in spite of making him acting Hand of the King, Master of Coin and husband to Sansa Stark. Since he is the Lannister holding the "key to the North", he ought to be one of the last persons in the world Tywin wants dead but "smart" Tyrion believes it anyway. He has turned from smart into self-pitying blind Tyrion sometime after the Blackwater battle. As to Tyrion's popularity I am certain pity for the underdog makes a large part of it. The same goes for the "poor bastard" Jon Snow who had to wait six seasons for someone to tell him he was privileged to have feasts and a family raising him in wealth. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 19, 2017 7:13:41 GMT
I would be surprised if pity was high on the list of reasons people like Tyrion. I understand you like Tyrion for his intellect, the same way you took Mockingbird as a user name. You write intelligent posts and like intelligent characters. You know, however, that displaying intelligence, no matter in what way, doesn't make people popular. |
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Oh dear, I did wonder why I'd been tagged on some random threads. I don't think there's a way to change registration ID is there? If there is, I'll change it to avoid confusion. I'm not attached to my ID, it was just quick to type.