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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 22:50:24 GMT
I love how we as a species use religion to get creative.
Take for example the Crusades of the middle ages and modern day Jihads. They both describe conditions in which one side invades another country to commit murder of the local citizens. The Crusaders also raped and pillaged, something the jihadists haven't adopted yet. Each side claims that their war is holy so everything is justified.
The people who are killed are called murder victims, collateral damage or a justified target depending on who you ask.
The people who do the killing are called "god's soldiers" or terrorists, depending on which side one is on. They are called freedom fighters if this happens in another country and they happen to be on your government's payroll.
This mixes well with the Commandmet that says "thou shalll not kill".
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Post by goz on Jun 22, 2018 0:12:16 GMT
@graham said it very eloquently on another thread recently.
As you say it is wider than this, and even today civilisation has not come far past 'tribalism'.
Hence religion has been used to justify any cause that is 'us' against 'them' with extra credit being given to atrocities and hypocritical violence 'in the name of our particular almighty' to give it import and validity in the minds of the diverse faithful.
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Post by gadreel on Jun 22, 2018 1:37:59 GMT
I love how we as a species use religion to get creative.
Take for example the Crusades of the middle ages and modern day Jihads. They both describe conditions in which one side invades another country to commit murder of the local citizens. The Crusaders also raped and pillaged, something the jihadists haven't adopted yet. Each side claims that their war is holy so everything is justified.
The people who are killed are called murder victims, collateral damage or a justified target depending on who you ask.
The people who do the killing are called "god's soldiers" or terrorists, depending on which side one is on. They are called freedom fighters if this happens in another country and they happen to be on your government's payroll.
This mixes well with the Commandmet that says "thou shalll not kill". Yes that is correct, the crusades were the western version of a Jihad, yes of course (as with all wars) the side you are on is the correct side, the enemt are the current personification of evil. Yes it contravenes the literalist interpretation of 'Thou Shall not Kill'
What is the point? That people break commandments? That there are ways of trying to make war sound good from the perspective of the fighter? I mean even the Germans thought they were doing the right thing (at least until 1942).
This is how wars are prosecuted.
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Post by goz on Jun 22, 2018 2:04:49 GMT
I love how we as a species use religion to get creative.
Take for example the Crusades of the middle ages and modern day Jihads. They both describe conditions in which one side invades another country to commit murder of the local citizens. The Crusaders also raped and pillaged, something the jihadists haven't adopted yet. Each side claims that their war is holy so everything is justified.
The people who are killed are called murder victims, collateral damage or a justified target depending on who you ask.
The people who do the killing are called "god's soldiers" or terrorists, depending on which side one is on. They are called freedom fighters if this happens in another country and they happen to be on your government's payroll.
This mixes well with the Commandmet that says "thou shalll not kill". Yes that is correct, the crusades were the western version of a Jihad, yes of course (as with all wars) the side you are on is the correct side, the enemt are the current personification of evil. Yes it contravenes the literalist interpretation of 'Thou Shall not Kill'
What is the point? That people break commandments? That there are ways of trying to make war sound good from the perspective of the fighter? I mean even the Germans thought they were doing the right thing (at least until 1942).
This is how wars are prosecuted.
Can you not see that using religion on both sides to justify such carnage, is the problem? mainly because the religions have superficial differences? It is basically uncivilised tribalism and in modern society we need to 'get over it'!
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Post by gadreel on Jun 22, 2018 2:28:23 GMT
Yes that is correct, the crusades were the western version of a Jihad, yes of course (as with all wars) the side you are on is the correct side, the enemt are the current personification of evil. Yes it contravenes the literalist interpretation of 'Thou Shall not Kill'
What is the point? That people break commandments? That there are ways of trying to make war sound good from the perspective of the fighter? I mean even the Germans thought they were doing the right thing (at least until 1942).
This is how wars are prosecuted.
Can you not see that using religion on both sides to justify such carnage, is the problem? mainly because the religions have superficial differences? It is basically uncivilised tribalism and in modern society we need to 'get over it'! Actually the problem is war, people will fight and to get people to help them fight they have to justify it, if it is not religion it is patriotism (ww1) or stopping evil (ww2). Sure I would love us to get over war, but that might be a little while off yet.
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Post by goz on Jun 22, 2018 2:41:13 GMT
Can you not see that using religion on both sides to justify such carnage, is the problem? mainly because the religions have superficial differences? It is basically uncivilised tribalism and in modern society we need to 'get over it'! Actually the problem is war, people will fight and to get people to help them fight they have to justify it, if it is not religion it is patriotism (ww1) or stopping evil (ww2). Sure I would love us to get over war, but that might be a little while off yet. In a sense I agree with you, butt you cannot close your eyes to the current discord in the world between religious groups and their disparate views which is causing conflict...I am sure I don't need to enumerate them. Hypocritically, religion is a divisive tribalist concept. War is just an end result of this. Yes, there are other things to fight over butt you have to agree that religion is the big one.
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Post by gadreel on Jun 22, 2018 2:44:38 GMT
Actually the problem is war, people will fight and to get people to help them fight they have to justify it, if it is not religion it is patriotism (ww1) or stopping evil (ww2). Sure I would love us to get over war, but that might be a little while off yet. In a sense I agree with you, butt you cannot close your eyes to the current discord in the world between religious groups and their disparate views which is causing conflict...I am sure I don't need to enumerate them. Hypocritically, religion is a divisive tribalist concept. War is just an end result of this. Yes, there are other things to fight over butt you have to agree that religion is the big one. Actually according to the war report there have been no religious wars since the crusades, modern war is about resources, or about imposing your political view on others.
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Post by goz on Jun 22, 2018 2:52:52 GMT
In a sense I agree with you, butt you cannot close your eyes to the current discord in the world between religious groups and their disparate views which is causing conflict...I am sure I don't need to enumerate them. Hypocritically, religion is a divisive tribalist concept. War is just an end result of this. Yes, there are other things to fight over butt you have to agree that religion is the big one. Actually according to the war report there have been no religious wars since the crusades, modern war is about resources, or about imposing your political view on others. Don't be disingenuous. I said conflicts. Do I have to spell out the misery of ISIS, Kampuchea, parts of the Indian sub-continent, Israel, Indonesia, African religious and tribal conflicts, Trump's vengeance against Muslims, European resistance in some quarters to Muslim refugees etc etc etc etc? Most of them have multiple causes, at the root of which is religion and tribalism.
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Post by gadreel on Jun 22, 2018 3:20:53 GMT
Actually according to the war report there have been no religious wars since the crusades, modern war is about resources, or about imposing your political view on others. Don't be disingenuous. I said conflicts. Do I have to spell out the misery of ISIS, Kampuchea, parts of the Indian sub-continent, Israel, Indonesia, African religious and tribal conflicts, Trump's vengeance against Muslims, European resistance in some quarters to Muslim refugees etc etc etc etc? Most of them have multiple causes, at the root of which is religion and tribalism. dont be disdisingenuous, I clearly referenced war. but to be clear religion IS a form of tribalism, so you see that even if you eliminate religion you still have the tribalism
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Post by goz on Jun 22, 2018 3:30:25 GMT
Don't be disingenuous. I said conflicts. Do I have to spell out the misery of ISIS, Kampuchea, parts of the Indian sub-continent, Israel, Indonesia, African religious and tribal conflicts, Trump's vengeance against Muslims, European resistance in some quarters to Muslim refugees etc etc etc etc? Most of them have multiple causes, at the root of which is religion and tribalism. dont be disdisingenuous, I clearly referenced war. but to be clear religion IS a form of tribalism, so you see that even if you eliminate religion you still have the tribalism
Yes, and I clearly stated that it is NOT just war, it is regional religious and tribal conflicts. NEVER said it wasn't, in fact it was me that brought the concept of tribalism into this debate. HOWEVER, what more potent tribalism ( even more than geographical and economic and political ) of RELIGION can you have to create conflict and war in the (anachronistic in my view in a modern world) religious milieu where people (falsely in my view) think that this is a conflict not only of this world butt the next? Anachronistic religions that don't value logic science and advance psychology and philosophy are STILL warring over stupid archaic things.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 22, 2018 9:17:57 GMT
Jihadists haven't adopted raping and pillaging yet? You don't say?
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 22, 2018 9:25:54 GMT
Yes that is correct, the crusades were the western version of a Jihad, yes of course (as with all wars) the side you are on is the correct side, the enemt are the current personification of evil. Yes it contravenes the literalist interpretation of 'Thou Shall not Kill'
What is the point? That people break commandments? That there are ways of trying to make war sound good from the perspective of the fighter? I mean even the Germans thought they were doing the right thing (at least until 1942).
This is how wars are prosecuted.
Can you not see that using religion on both sides to justify such carnage, is the problem? mainly because the religions have superficial differences? It is basically uncivilised tribalism and in modern society we need to 'get over it'! I think you have been told more than once now that Christianity is not a religion. It is remarkably tribal, unlike any actual religion. Government is tribal too, but often not as bad as Christianity. Government is just as bad today though.
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Post by goz on Jun 22, 2018 21:43:16 GMT
Can you not see that using religion on both sides to justify such carnage, is the problem? mainly because the religions have superficial differences? It is basically uncivilised tribalism and in modern society we need to 'get over it'! I think you have been told more than once now that Christianity is not a religion. It is remarkably tribal, unlike any actual religion. Government is tribal too, but often not as bad as Christianity. Government is just as bad today though. Planet Arlon. DO TELL how Christianity is not a religion.
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Post by general313 on Jun 22, 2018 21:51:50 GMT
I think you have been told more than once now that Christianity is not a religion. It is remarkably tribal, unlike any actual religion. Government is tribal too, but often not as bad as Christianity. Government is just as bad today though. Planet Arlon. DO TELL how Christianity is not a religion. It's a process. The first step is to discard any dictionaries that happen to be lying around.
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Post by goz on Jun 22, 2018 22:23:47 GMT
Planet Arlon. DO TELL how Christianity is not a religion. It's a process. The first step is to discard any dictionaries that happen to be lying around. Step two. Blame the government. Step three. Blame when they introduced no fault divorce. Step four. When they disallowed the teaching of creationism in schools. ...or something!!!
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Post by general313 on Jun 22, 2018 23:20:03 GMT
It's a process. The first step is to discard any dictionaries that happen to be lying around. Step two. Blame the government. Step three. Blame when they introduced no fault divorce. Step four. When they disallowed the teaching of creationism in schools. ...or something!!! Step 5: Find a "scientific" YouTube video. Oh, wait a minute, I'm thinking of a different guy's MO...
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 22, 2018 23:47:35 GMT
I think you have been told more than once now that Christianity is not a religion. It is remarkably tribal, unlike any actual religion. Government is tribal too, but often not as bad as Christianity. Government is just as bad today though. Planet Arlon. DO TELL how Christianity is not a religion. When you were in kindergarten and the first grade elementary or perhaps even the second you took tests where you had to circle the object was not like the other objects. If there were three different trees and a cat, you circled the cat. If there were three different buildings and a tree you circled the tree. Let's do that again. Which "religion" is different from all the others? Christianity as practiced by many who call themselves that has no rules. That is in many cases anyway no rules for its members. Sometimes people who are not members are required to follow all sorts of rules and vilified or worse if they don't. That would be the "Christianity" that you often complain about in history. It is just a group of people that protects its own members regardless what they do. You might have heard the term "tribe" used to describe such groups. That is only one meaning of the word tribe, there are others. You and gadreel were discussing tribalism recently. All the other religions have rules and or advice that applies whether people are members or not. May such a tribe as those "Christians" be called a "religion"? Obviously it is by many. People are generally allowed to define themselves however they like. There is however a notable difference that you need to consider.
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Post by goz on Jun 23, 2018 2:55:21 GMT
Planet Arlon. DO TELL how Christianity is not a religion. When you were in kindergarten and the first grade elementary or perhaps even the second you took tests where you had to circle the object was not like the other objects. If there were three different trees and a cat, you circled the cat. If there were three different buildings and a tree you circled the tree. Let's do that again. Which "religion" is different from all the others? Christianity as practiced by many who call themselves that has no rules. That is in many cases anyway no rules for its members. Sometimes people who are not members are required to follow all sorts of rules and vilified or worse if they don't. That would be the "Christianity" that you often complain about in history. It is just a group of people that protects its own members regardless what they do. You might have heard the term "tribe" used to describe such groups. That is only one meaning of the word tribe, there are others. You and gadreel were discussing tribalism recently. All the other religions have rules and or advice that applies whether people are members or not. May such a tribe as those "Christians" be called a "religion"? Obviously it is by many. People are generally allowed to define themselves however they like. There is however a notable difference that you need to consider. ...which is?
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Post by Arlon10 on Jun 23, 2018 17:08:25 GMT
When you were in kindergarten and the first grade elementary or perhaps even the second you took tests where you had to circle the object was not like the other objects. If there were three different trees and a cat, you circled the cat. If there were three different buildings and a tree you circled the tree. Let's do that again. Which "religion" is different from all the others? Christianity as practiced by many who call themselves that has no rules. That is in many cases anyway no rules for its members. Sometimes people who are not members are required to follow all sorts of rules and vilified or worse if they don't. That would be the "Christianity" that you often complain about in history. It is just a group of people that protects its own members regardless what they do. You might have heard the term "tribe" used to describe such groups. That is only one meaning of the word tribe, there are others. You and gadreel were discussing tribalism recently. All the other religions have rules and or advice that applies whether people are members or not. May such a tribe as those "Christians" be called a "religion"? Obviously it is by many. People are generally allowed to define themselves however they like. There is however a notable difference that you need to consider. ...which is? What I just explained. You even quoted it in full.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:27:38 GMT
Jihadists haven't adopted raping and pillaging yet? You don't say? Unfortunately they need to be taght the Christian way of being a social nuisance.
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