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Post by movieliker on Jun 26, 2018 20:08:06 GMT
(This is based on what I have seen half way through season 5)
Yes, Sam is sweet and learned. He likes to read. He seems to have an intelligent outlook. And it is noble and heartfelt that he cares for Tilly and her baby.
But we never see him practice fighting drills with the rest of the Nightwatch. And he always gets his ass kicked in every fight. Whenever he does fight, he performs like he doesn't know how to fight.
How responsible is it of him to be a member of Nightwatch charged with guarding the wall, and not know how to fight?
How does the Nightwatch brotherhood allow him to be a member and not know how to fight?
Wouldn't you think fighting practice would be mandatory?
Seems like a contrived setup for victimhood. So we can continually hate his bullies. And feel sorry for his sorry ass.
Eventually I lose concern for characters like this who are repeated and inexplicable victims of their own laziness and irresponsibility.
What do you think?
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shinnickneth
Junior Member
@shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jun 26, 2018 22:02:45 GMT
I think there's a lot more story you haven't watched yet and it's hard to discuss the character without you seeing all the released seasons.
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Seto
Sophomore
@seto
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Post by Seto on Jun 27, 2018 15:48:24 GMT
Movieliker, the Night's Watch has three positions. Ranger, Builder and Steward. Sam is a Steward, it's not his job to be a fighter/Ranger. He is assigned to help Maester Aemon.
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Post by movieliker on Jun 27, 2018 16:49:05 GMT
Movieliker, the Night's Watch has three positions. Ranger, Builder and Steward. Sam is a Steward, it's not his job to be a fighter/Ranger. He is assigned to help Maester Aemon. Okay thanks. But being that he is a member of the Night's Watch, and he has a girlfriend and baby to take care of, isn't it stupid, irresponsible and lazy for him not to train for fighting? At least self-defense? He wasn't born yesterday. He isn't a rookie member. He has been around. Shouldn't he take advantage of the resources available to the men of Night's Watch? Even if he leaves, life for a commoner is dangerous everywhere in Westeros. Everyone benefits from fighting skills. |
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Seto
Sophomore
@seto
Posts: 311
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Post by Seto on Jun 27, 2018 23:51:34 GMT
Movieliker, considering Sam managed to kill a White Walker protecting Gilly, and performed fairly well in the battle of the Wall, I'd say he is doing just fine.
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Post by movieliker on Jun 28, 2018 3:14:52 GMT
Movieliker, considering Sam managed to kill a White Walker protecting Gilly, and performed fairly well in the battle of the Wall, I'd say he is doing just fine. Well, he got his ass kicked when those two Nights Watch members cornered his girlfriend in the storage room. He would have been killed had that white wolf not shown up. And no, he snuck up unexpectedly behind the White Walker. And he hid behind stuff with a crossbow during the Battle of the Wall. He is not skilled with a sword. He won't last on his own. Every man in Medieval times --- and in Westeros --- should learn how to fight with a sword. Those both are dangerous times. He will never make it to the Citadel. Which is where he left for the last time I saw him. I just finished season 5. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 28, 2018 3:38:51 GMT
Movieliker, considering Sam managed to kill a White Walker protecting Gilly, and performed fairly well in the battle of the Wall, I'd say he is doing just fine. Well, he got his ass kicked when those two Nights Watch members cornered his girlfriend in the storage room. He would have been killed had that white wolf not shown up. And no, he snuck up unexpectedly behind the White Walker. And he hid behind stuff with a crossbow during the Battle of the Wall. He is not skilled with a sword. He won't last on his own. Every man in Medieval times --- and in Westeros --- should learn how to fight with a sword. Those both are dangerous times. He will never make it to the Citadel. Which is where he left for the last time I saw him. I just finished season 5. I don't remember enough from the show but Sam was never shy to call himself a coward in the books. The thing is that what everyone should do is not the same as what everybody eventually does. Sometimes we cannot do things even when we know that doing things will help us. Sam has a different sort of good points about him. His father was too hard on him and in fact abusive towards him. Sam was never meant to be at Castle Black. He was forcefully sent because his father was worried that his elder son is a disgrace to his family and forefathers.
Some people believe that Sam is the narrator of the story. It is just a conjecture but I think Samwell has served his part on many occasions. I do agree with you that he could have tried a bit harder to learn the fighting skills. But he just didn't have stomach for it. he would vomit at sight of blood.
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Post by movieliker on Jun 28, 2018 4:19:07 GMT
Well, he got his ass kicked when those two Nights Watch members cornered his girlfriend in the storage room. He would have been killed had that white wolf not shown up. And no, he snuck up unexpectedly behind the White Walker. And he hid behind stuff with a crossbow during the Battle of the Wall. He is not skilled with a sword. He won't last on his own. Every man in Medieval times --- and in Westeros --- should learn how to fight with a sword. Those both are dangerous times. He will never make it to the Citadel. Which is where he left for the last time I saw him. I just finished season 5. I don't remember enough from the show but Sam was never shy to call himself a coward in the books. The thing is that what everyone should do is not the same as what everybody eventually does. Sometimes we cannot do things even when we know that doing things will help us. Sam has a different sort of good points about him. His father was too hard on him and in fact abusive towards him. Sam was never meant to be at Castle Black. He was forcefully sent because his father was worried that his elder son is a disgrace to his family and forefathers.
Some people believe that Sam is the narrator of the story. It is just a conjecture but I think Samwell has served his part on many occasions. I do agree with you that he could have tried a bit harder to learn the fighting skills. But he just didn't have stomach for it. he would vomit at sight of blood.
I didn't read the book. But in the show, he has never vomited at the sight of blood. He has been through two battles and seen people killed brutally. And he was bloody after the two Night's Watch men beat him up in the storage room. He had no problem with his own blood. He doesn't need to be the champion warrior of Westeros. He doesn't even need to be a champion sword fighter. But every man had the responsibility to learn how to defend themselves and their families. He just has to not be a push over. He supposedly loves Tilly and her baby. And is willing to die for them. Is it too imaginative to figure he would benefit from any defense training? Yes, Sam has many good and impressive qualities. In many cases he is superior to all others. But come on, this is inexplicable. The only explanation is it is a writing contrivance, "We need a whipping boy for dramatic purposes". Unrealistic. Never happen in real life. All men --- especially those appointed to official defense (Night Watch) would develop their fighting skills as a matter of survival in Westeros. And obligation if they wanted to take care of anyone. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 28, 2018 4:58:10 GMT
I don't remember enough from the show but Sam was never shy to call himself a coward in the books. The thing is that what everyone should do is not the same as what everybody eventually does. Sometimes we cannot do things even when we know that doing things will help us. Sam has a different sort of good points about him. His father was too hard on him and in fact abusive towards him. Sam was never meant to be at Castle Black. He was forcefully sent because his father was worried that his elder son is a disgrace to his family and forefathers.
Some people believe that Sam is the narrator of the story. It is just a conjecture but I think Samwell has served his part on many occasions. I do agree with you that he could have tried a bit harder to learn the fighting skills. But he just didn't have stomach for it. he would vomit at sight of blood.
I didn't read the book. But in the show, he has never vomited at the sight of blood. He has been through two battles and seen people killed brutally. And he was bloody after the two Night's Watch men beat him up in the storage room. He had no problem with his own blood. He doesn't need to be the champion warrior of Westeros. He doesn't even need to be a champion sword fighter. But every man had the responsibility to learn how to defend themselves and their families. He just has to not be a push over. He supposedly loves Tilly and her baby. And is willing to die for them. Is it too imaginative to figure he would benefit from any defense training? Yes, Sam has many good and impressive qualities. In many cases he is superior to all others. But come on, this is inexplicable. The only explanation is it is a writing contrivance, "We need a whipping boy for dramatic purposes". Unrealistic. Never happen in real life. All men --- especially those appointed to official defense (Night Watch) would develop their fighting skills as a matter of survival in Westeros. And obligation if they wanted to take care of anyone. It is important to remember that Samwell is son of Lord Randyll Tarly who has often been counted among three greatest military commanders along with King Stannis and Lord Tywin. The thing is that if Samwell could apply himself to learn sword skills or defence skills at Night's Watch then he could have at his father's house too and thus would not have needed to go to the Night's Watch. Sam simply lacks natural intrinsic ability to learn even the basic warrior skills. It is simply contrary to his nature. We should remember that he was not willingly sent to the Night's Watch. The decision was forced on him.
There are such people as Sam. For example, there was a beautiful girl in my class and I madly wanted to be with her. Eventually, my chance came as I was asked by my teacher to participate in annual day dance and I was given the chance to pair with that girl. But once I got to the dance hall and started practising I couldn't do anything. I was a sports guy and good at many sports. I could not dance even if it was to my advantage. After 2 days I simply left my chance to be with that beautiful girl that I wanted so much. I simply could not go against my intrinsic nature. I know it will help Sam to learn defence skills in a war torn country and given the fact that he had seen the army of the dead. But it seems Samwell's intrinsic nature is completely averse to being a warrior.
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Post by movieliker on Jun 28, 2018 6:04:55 GMT
I didn't read the book. But in the show, he has never vomited at the sight of blood. He has been through two battles and seen people killed brutally. And he was bloody after the two Night's Watch men beat him up in the storage room. He had no problem with his own blood. He doesn't need to be the champion warrior of Westeros. He doesn't even need to be a champion sword fighter. But every man had the responsibility to learn how to defend themselves and their families. He just has to not be a push over. He supposedly loves Tilly and her baby. And is willing to die for them. Is it too imaginative to figure he would benefit from any defense training? Yes, Sam has many good and impressive qualities. In many cases he is superior to all others. But come on, this is inexplicable. The only explanation is it is a writing contrivance, "We need a whipping boy for dramatic purposes". Unrealistic. Never happen in real life. All men --- especially those appointed to official defense (Night Watch) would develop their fighting skills as a matter of survival in Westeros. And obligation if they wanted to take care of anyone. It is important to remember that Samwell is son of Lord Randyll Tarly who has often been counted among three greatest military commanders along with King Stannis and Lord Tywin. The thing is that if Samwell could apply himself to learn sword skills or defence skills at Night's Watch then he could have at his father's house too and thus would not have needed to go to the Night's Watch. Sam simply lacks natural intrinsic ability to learn even the basic warrior skills. It is simply contrary to his nature. We should remember that he was not willingly sent to the Night's Watch. The decision was forced on him.
There are such people as Sam. For example, there was a beautiful girl in my class and I madly wanted to be with her. Eventually, my chance came as I was asked by my teacher to participate in annual day dance and I was given the chance to pair with that girl. But once I got to the dance hall and started practising I couldn't do anything. I was a sports guy and good at many sports. I could not dance even if it was to my advantage. After 2 days I simply left my chance to be with that beautiful girl that I wanted so much. I simply could not go against my intrinsic nature. I know it will help Sam to learn defence skills in a war torn country and given the fact that he had seen the army of the dead. But it seems Samwell's intrinsic nature is completely averse to being a warrior.
Sorry about your girlfriend. But it seems athletes usually have no problem attracting the women. The girl who you were attracted to didn't admire your athletic skills and accomplishments? |
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 28, 2018 6:31:37 GMT
It is important to remember that Samwell is son of Lord Randyll Tarly who has often been counted among three greatest military commanders along with King Stannis and Lord Tywin. The thing is that if Samwell could apply himself to learn sword skills or defence skills at Night's Watch then he could have at his father's house too and thus would not have needed to go to the Night's Watch. Sam simply lacks natural intrinsic ability to learn even the basic warrior skills. It is simply contrary to his nature. We should remember that he was not willingly sent to the Night's Watch. The decision was forced on him.
There are such people as Sam. For example, there was a beautiful girl in my class and I madly wanted to be with her. Eventually, my chance came as I was asked by my teacher to participate in annual day dance and I was given the chance to pair with that girl. But once I got to the dance hall and started practising I couldn't do anything. I was a sports guy and good at many sports. I could not dance even if it was to my advantage. After 2 days I simply left my chance to be with that beautiful girl that I wanted so much. I simply could not go against my intrinsic nature. I know it will help Sam to learn defence skills in a war torn country and given the fact that he had seen the army of the dead. But it seems Samwell's intrinsic nature is completely averse to being a warrior.
Sorry about your girlfriend. But it seems athletes usually have no problem attracting the women. The girl who you were attracted to didn't admire your athletic skills and accomplishments? The girl liked me enough as a friend but there was literally zero percent chance that she could have been my girlfriend. She was a Muslim and while the school was a christian missionary school it was located in the heart of the Muslim area of the town. If she had become my girlfriend it might even have led to communal riot (and I am serious here). To add to that I was notoriously infamous in school for being an explicitly anti-muslim person (yeah regretfully I was an anti-Muslim bigot till 2 years ago). In any case the last I saw the girl has become a raging mad religious lunatic on facebook. I think in school days I just wanted to spend some time with her. While she was aware of my antithetical dislike for Muslims she still liked me as a friend. Over the years though she seems to have changed. |
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Post by movieliker on Jun 28, 2018 7:02:48 GMT
Sorry about your girlfriend. But it seems athletes usually have no problem attracting the women. The girl who you were attracted to didn't admire your athletic skills and accomplishments? The girl liked me enough as a friend but there was literally zero percent chance that she could have been my girlfriend. She was a Muslim and while the school was a christian missionary school it was located in the heart of the Muslim area of the town. If she had become my girlfriend it might even have led to communal riot (and I am serious here). To add to that I was notoriously infamous in school for being an explicitly anti-muslim person (yeah regretfully I was an anti-Muslim bigot till 2 years ago). In any case the last I saw the girl has become a raging mad religious lunatic on facebook. I think in school days I just wanted to spend some time with her. While she was aware of my antithetical dislike for Muslims she still liked me as a friend. Over the years though she seems to have changed. It seems you are talking about high school. If so, we all have regrets based on what usually turns out to be the understandable result of being immature, unsophisticated and inexperienced. Don't feel bad. Most of us have youth accounts that often fall into the category of, "Man, if I knew then what I know now." That is the bad side of trial and error. But that is how we learn. Regardless, seems like looking back, things worked out for the best. Unless you wanted a school riot. If you guys were friends, why didn't you just "put the moves on her"? The worst that could have happened was she would have rejected you. And you would have been no worse off being that you two were never "together" anyway. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 28, 2018 7:19:35 GMT
The girl liked me enough as a friend but there was literally zero percent chance that she could have been my girlfriend. She was a Muslim and while the school was a christian missionary school it was located in the heart of the Muslim area of the town. If she had become my girlfriend it might even have led to communal riot (and I am serious here). To add to that I was notoriously infamous in school for being an explicitly anti-muslim person (yeah regretfully I was an anti-Muslim bigot till 2 years ago). In any case the last I saw the girl has become a raging mad religious lunatic on facebook. I think in school days I just wanted to spend some time with her. While she was aware of my antithetical dislike for Muslims she still liked me as a friend. Over the years though she seems to have changed. It seems you are talking about high school. If so, we all have regrets based on what usually turns out to be the understandable result of being immature, unsophisticated and inexperienced. Don't feel bad. Most of us have youth accounts that often fall into the category of, "Man, if I knew then what I know now." That is the bad side of trial and error. But that is how we learn. Regardless, seems like looking back, things worked out for the best. Unless you wanted a school riot. If you guys were friends, why didn't you just "put the moves on her"? The worst that could have happened was she would have rejected you. And you would have been no worse off being that you two were never "together" anyway. I am talking about the period when I was 14-17 years old. In my small hometown boys usually start having girlfriends at around 17 or later. My town was totally divided on communal lines. I cannot even describe how bloody the situation can turn if non-Muslims get into relationship with Muslim girls. Usually, the couple have to run away from their town to have such relationships and they could be still be tracked down and in some cases people may have to pay with their lives. In some unique cases when families are very well educated and forward minded then Muslim & Non-Muslim relations can exist. But that usually happens in big cities not small towns. |
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Post by movieliker on Jun 28, 2018 7:22:01 GMT
It seems you are talking about high school. If so, we all have regrets based on what usually turns out to be the understandable result of being immature, unsophisticated and inexperienced. Don't feel bad. Most of us have youth accounts that often fall into the category of, "Man, if I knew then what I know now." That is the bad side of trial and error. But that is how we learn. Regardless, seems like looking back, things worked out for the best. Unless you wanted a school riot. If you guys were friends, why didn't you just "put the moves on her"? The worst that could have happened was she would have rejected you. And you would have been no worse off being that you two were never "together" anyway. I am talking about the period when I was 14-17 years old. In my small hometown boys usually start having girlfriends at around 17 or later. My town was totally divided on communal lines. I cannot even describe how bloody the situation can turn if non-Muslims get into relationship with Muslim girls. Usually, the couple have to run away from their town to have such relationships and they could be still be tracked down and in some cases people may have to pay with their lives. In some unique cases when families are very well educated and forward minded then Muslim & Non-Muslim relations can exist. But that usually happens in big cities not small towns. What country do you live in? |
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 28, 2018 7:26:36 GMT
I am talking about the period when I was 14-17 years old. In my small hometown boys usually start having girlfriends at around 17 or later. My town was totally divided on communal lines. I cannot even describe how bloody the situation can turn if non-Muslims get into relationship with Muslim girls. Usually, the couple have to run away from their town to have such relationships and they could be still be tracked down and in some cases people may have to pay with their lives. In some unique cases when families are very well educated and forward minded then Muslim & Non-Muslim relations can exist. But that usually happens in big cities not small towns. What country do you live in? I live in Australia now. I used to live in an obsolete part of India. |
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Post by movieliker on Jun 28, 2018 7:28:16 GMT
What country do you live in? I live in Australia now. I used to live in an obsolete part of India. What ethnicity are you? |
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 28, 2018 7:35:06 GMT
I live in Australia now. I used to live in an obsolete part of India. What ethnicity are you? South Asia. I look like a person from either Pakistan or north India. |
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Post by movieliker on Jun 28, 2018 7:37:43 GMT
South Asia. I look like a person from either Pakistan or north India. Interesting. You literally live on the opposite side of the planet from me. |
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 28, 2018 7:38:26 GMT
So getting back to the topic, sometimes things are not totally in our control. It is true that Samwell could have put in more efforts. He didn't because his intrinsic nature was exactly opposite of a warrior. Even the prospects of inheriting the name of such a reputed family was not enough to make him courageous in a warrior sort of a way. But as we both know he has shown courage and other good qualities in different ways.
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Post by movieliker on Jun 28, 2018 7:45:28 GMT
So getting back to the topic, sometimes things are not totally in our control. It is true that Samwell could have put in more efforts he didn't because his intrinsic nature was exactly opposite of a warrior. Even the prospects of inheriting the name of such a reputed family was not enough to make him courageous in a warrior sort of a way. But as we both know he has shown courage and other good qualities in different ways. I agree. But I still think it is stupid, irresponsible and ridiculous. How hard would have been to drill sometimes with the other Nights Watch members? If he wants to be a good provider for Lilly and her baby, he needs to be able protect them. At least try. |
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