Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
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Post by Eλευθερί on Jul 4, 2018 17:44:56 GMT
If Jesus and God are exactly the same, shouldn't they know the same things? Matthew 24:36You'd have thought so, especially when we read such things as: Where we might have expected Christ to correct something which was wrong doctrinally (something He was very prone to do). But then again, if JC knew all things and was God, He would not need to wonder outloud why, er, He'd forsaken Himself while on the cross.
This kind of inconsistency is basically why I aborted myself from catechism classes at a very young age. It made no logical sense. The nuns and priest would tell me, "That is the mystery of the faith." Even at that age, I knew it was an attempt at brainwashing with mumbo-jumbo, and I wasn't having any of it.
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 4, 2018 19:53:35 GMT
In the Qur'an, the Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of/from Allah so, as we find in so many things, Cody is wrong.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_%28Islam%29
Also the teaching that “God is spirit” is found in John 4:24, and Muslims say they worship the same god as the Christians.
And if Jesus is God, and God is the Father, then at least some of Jesus is the Father by default, surely. Unless one is arguing that Jesus is less than God. Or whatever. If Jesus and God are exactly the same, shouldn't they know the same things? Matthew 24:36I have that buffoon FlimFlam on ignore so i only noticed his garbage as it was quoted through your post. And I see once again he’s up to his old disingenuous tricks spreading misinformation. In Islam the Holy Spirit is NOT a part of Allah. It is the source of revelation, more specifically the Holy Spirit in Islamic theology is said to be the angel Gabriel. FlimFlam is once again resorting to deceit in a desperate attempt to discredit and undermine me. Allah is not a spirit being according to Islamic doctrine(it’s considered blasphemy to describe him as such). Yahweh IS a spirit being according to the bible. Conclusion...they cannot be the same entity thus Christians and Muslims do NOT worship the same God.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2018 20:05:08 GMT
If Jesus and God are exactly the same, shouldn't they know the same things? Matthew 24:36I have that buffoon FlimFlam on ignore so i only noticed his garbage as it was quoted through your post. And I see once again he’s up to his old disingenuous tricks spreading misinformation. In Islam the Holy Spirit is NOT a part of Allah. It is the source of revelation, more specifically the Holy Spirit in Islamic theology is said to be the angel Gabriel. FlimFlam is once again resorting to deceit in a desperate attempt to discredit and undermine me. Allah is not a spirit being according to Islamic doctrine(it’s considered blasphemy to describe him as such). Yahweh IS a spirit being according to the bible. Conclusion...they cannot be the same entity thus Christians and Muslims do NOT worship the same God. FlimFlam never gives up. I can't remember if I mentioned this to you earlier, but I was watching a video last year and it said that before Islam Allah was the generic name for whatever pagan god was worshipped in any given place. It was interesting.
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Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
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Post by Eλευθερί on Jul 4, 2018 20:05:39 GMT
Allah is not a spirit being according to Islamic doctrine(it’s considered blasphemy to describe him as such). Yahweh IS a spirit being according to the bible. Conclusion...they cannot be the same entity thus Christians and Muslims do NOT worship the same God.
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 4, 2018 20:51:57 GMT
I have that buffoon FlimFlam on ignore so i only noticed his garbage as it was quoted through your post. And I see once again he’s up to his old disingenuous tricks spreading misinformation. In Islam the Holy Spirit is NOT a part of Allah. It is the source of revelation, more specifically the Holy Spirit in Islamic theology is said to be the angel Gabriel. FlimFlam is once again resorting to deceit in a desperate attempt to discredit and undermine me. Allah is not a spirit being according to Islamic doctrine(it’s considered blasphemy to describe him as such). Yahweh IS a spirit being according to the bible. Conclusion...they cannot be the same entity thus Christians and Muslims do NOT worship the same God. FlimFlam never gives up. I can't remember if I mentioned this to you earlier, but I was watching a video last year and it said that before Islam Allah was the generic name for whatever pagan god was worshipped in any given place. It was interesting.This is true.
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 4, 2018 20:53:16 GMT
Allah is not a spirit being according to Islamic doctrine(it’s considered blasphemy to describe him as such). Yahweh IS a spirit being according to the bible. Conclusion...they cannot be the same entity thus Christians and Muslims do NOT worship the same God. The pope talks a lot of rubbish. This is hardly news.
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Post by goz on Jul 4, 2018 21:06:24 GMT
Correction: You tried to point out inconsistencies in their position, by quotemining from the Bible from chapters which concern Jews/Israelites. Another thing: Using personal insults like "pathetic individual" or "Aussie cow" is a behaviour often found in people who have no rational arguments left. Just saying. Are you just playing dumb or seriously this stupid? So Mormons profess belief in the God of the bible, who repeatedly declares that he is one and that there is no other God formed before or after him. But this only concerns Jews/Israelites? In other words he’s only one for them but he’s a council of Gods for the Mormons? Yet it’s the same God and you fail to see the conflict? Can you ever concede when you’re wrong about something? It’s been demonstrated to you by more than one person, so why do you insist on playing this silly game? Jesus categorically taught that God the Father is a spirit. Mormons believe that God the Father has a body of flesh and bone in heaven. How is that not an example of inconsistency between the doctrines?What was that red stuff that allegedly came out of Jesus' wounds on the cross and Catholics now drink in the Mass and eat of his flesh as a cracker?...wait he wasn't 'the Father' only half a God through his father, yet his Father must have joined some DNA with Mary...wait...the Holy Spirit came upon her....wait I am confused! Are the Mormons this confusing? Maybe the Jews have it right?
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Post by goz on Jul 4, 2018 21:10:11 GMT
In the Qur'an, the Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of/from Allah so, as we find in so many things, Cody is wrong.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_%28Islam%29
Also the teaching that “God is spirit” is found in John 4:24, and Muslims say they worship the same god as the Christians.
And if Jesus is God, and God is the Father, then at least some of Jesus is the Father by default, surely. Unless one is arguing that Jesus is less than God. Or whatever. Well, it could be like the blind men and the elephant. I mean, charitably speaking, that could be the simplest explanation for the divisions among all these various religious groups. (Other than that one of them is right and the rest are all wrong. Or ... they're just all wrong. ) Got any good elephant jokes? I'll start: How do you fit 4 elephants in a Mini Minor? (Fiat 500 for our European friends) 2 in the front seats and 2 in the back.
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Post by goz on Jul 4, 2018 21:13:52 GMT
I have that buffoon FlimFlam on ignore so i only noticed his garbage as it was quoted through your post. And I see once again he’s up to his old disingenuous tricks spreading misinformation. In Islam the Holy Spirit is NOT a part of Allah. It is the source of revelation, more specifically the Holy Spirit in Islamic theology is said to be the angel Gabriel. FlimFlam is once again resorting to deceit in a desperate attempt to discredit and undermine me. Allah is not a spirit being according to Islamic doctrine(it’s considered blasphemy to describe him as such). Yahweh IS a spirit being according to the bible. Conclusion...they cannot be the same entity thus Christians and Muslims do NOT worship the same God. FlimFlam never gives up. I can't remember if I mentioned this to you earlier, but I was watching a video last year and it said that before Islam Allah was the generic name for whatever pagan god was worshipped in any given place. It was interesting.Gee, I wonder if that would have been on YouTube? It's authority therefore is unquestionable. I think that anthropology and linguistics are a particular forte on there!
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 5, 2018 2:38:34 GMT
FlimFlam never gives up. I can't remember if I mentioned this to you earlier, but I was watching a video last year and it said that before Islam Allah was the generic name for whatever pagan god was worshipped in any given place. It was interesting.Gee, I wonder if that would have been on YouTube? It's authority therefore is unquestionable. I think that anthropology and linguistics are a particular forte on there! No, as I've said before, there's quite a lot of junk on YouTube. Some of it from people who are convinced they're right, and some of it is disinformation from people who know it's wrong but want others to believe it. That's where something called discernment comes in. And yes, I know you were being sarcastic.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jul 5, 2018 15:54:31 GMT
In Islam the Holy Spirit is NOT a part of Allah. It is the source of revelation, more specifically the Holy Spirit in Islamic theology is said to be the angel Gabriel. .. Allah is not a spirit being according to Islamic doctrine(it’s considered blasphemy to describe him as such). Yahweh IS a spirit being according to the bible. Conclusion...they cannot be the same entity thus Christians and Muslims do NOT worship the same God.
Being always quite happy to admit when I am wrong, I will agree with Cody on this one, in at least that Allah is not the same as the Holy Spirit. However just because it suits Cody and others of his ilk to say so, doesn't change the fact that Islam says it worships the same god as he does. If he rejects such a notion through any perceived contradictions, then it can be seen that neither major religions are free of them. The Quran alleges that the God of Islam, Allah, is indeed the God of Abraham and hence the God of Scripture, Yahweh Elohim. Significantly, Allah means God. The Aramaic and the Arabic word for God is similar sounding, in Aramaic it's Alaha in Arabic it's Allah. So it's highly likely when Jesus was speaking Aramaic and referring to God, he was addressing him as Alaha. When he was speaking Hebrew, he was using the term Elohim to refer to God. Remember the Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic languages share a common linguistic root, hence their respective words for God sound similar.
The Qu'ran alleges that the God of Islam, Allah, is indeed the God of Abraham and hence the God of Scripture, Yahweh Elohim. In the Qu'ran, Allah is described, amongst other things as follows:
The creator who created the universe in six days (10:3) The only God (5:73, 4:87) He is sovereign (9:70) He is knower of all things (2:29) He created Adam and Eve (2:31, 7:190) He was Abraham’s God (2:125) He was the God who sent Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh to liberate the people of Israel (7:103) He was the God who sent Jesus to earth: (3: 49-51) He gave man the Torah (the Old Testament), the Gospel (the New Testament) and then the Koran (3:3).
Sound a tad familiar? But perhaps there just happens to be two gods with such a pedigree? Not harbouring a belief in Allah, Jehovah or Allah-Jehovah so as to endlessly fret on and on about it, it is probably best to let the die-hards fight over perceived fine differences between themselves lol
But when no less than the pope says "All of us, Christians and Muslims, live under the sun of the one merciful God" etc and Islam says it too, it rather outguns the shrill denials of Cody and other fundamentalists
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Post by geode on Jul 7, 2018 14:11:27 GMT
In Islam the Holy Spirit is NOT a part of Allah. It is the source of revelation, more specifically the Holy Spirit in Islamic theology is said to be the angel Gabriel. .. Allah is not a spirit being according to Islamic doctrine(it’s considered blasphemy to describe him as such). Yahweh IS a spirit being according to the bible. Conclusion...they cannot be the same entity thus Christians and Muslims do NOT worship the same God.
Being always quite happy to admit when I am wrong, I will agree with Cody on this one, in at least that Allah is not the same as the Holy Spirit. However just because it suits Cody and others of his ilk to say so, doesn't change the fact that Islam says it worships the same god as he does. If he rejects such a notion through any perceived contradictions, then it can be seen that neither major religions are free of them. The Quran alleges that the God of Islam, Allah, is indeed the God of Abraham and hence the God of Scripture, Yahweh Elohim. Significantly, Allah means God. The Aramaic and the Arabic word for God is similar sounding, in Aramaic it's Alaha in Arabic it's Allah. So it's highly likely when Jesus was speaking Aramaic and referring to God, he was addressing him as Alaha. When he was speaking Hebrew, he was using the term Elohim to refer to God. Remember the Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic languages share a common linguistic root, hence their respective words for God sound similar.
The Qu'ran alleges that the God of Islam, Allah, is indeed the God of Abraham and hence the God of Scripture, Yahweh Elohim. In the Qu'ran, Allah is described, amongst other things as follows:
The creator who created the universe in six days (10:3) The only God (5:73, 4:87) He is sovereign (9:70) He is knower of all things (2:29) He created Adam and Eve (2:31, 7:190) He was Abraham’s God (2:125) He was the God who sent Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh to liberate the people of Israel (7:103) He was the God who sent Jesus to earth: (3: 49-51) He gave man the Torah (the Old Testament), the Gospel (the New Testament) and then the Koran (3:3).
Sound a tad familiar? But perhaps there just happens to be two gods with such a pedigree? Not harbouring a belief in Allah, Jehovah or Allah-Jehovah so as to endlessly fret on and on about it, it is probably best to let the die-hards fight over perceived fine differences between themselves lol
But when no less than the pope says "All of us, Christians and Muslims, live under the sun of the one merciful God" etc and Islam says it too, it rather outguns the shrill denials of Cody and other fundamentalists
You have made a solid and convincing argument that Muslims, Christians, and Jews all believe in the same God. By any honest definition lacking in self-serving bias, all "Abrahamic" faiths accept the God of Abraham as their own. Muslims, Jews and other Christians are all brothers under the same God. Are Mormons Christians? A simple answer is "yes" but I think "yes, of course" is better. A Christian is somebody that believes in Jesus Christ and His teachings. I think to believe in His teachings one must at least try to follow them. Christ taught the greatest commandment was to love God, and the second greatest to love each other. Jesus said the way to love Him was to keep His commandments. His teachings to His followers are against being derisive and towards unity. Perhaps the most famous story Jesus related was about a man usually called The Good Samaritan. The Samaritans held to different beliefs, what should be accepted as scripture, etc. yet Jesus makes a powerful case that the Samaritan he tells about followed the God both he and the Jews claimed to believe in more sincerely. Mormons accept and attempt to follow all of Christ's teachings. Where they differ is a somewhat different concept about the nature of God, and accepting additional scripture. Does a different concept of God prevent them from following him and keeping biblical commandments? No. Does having additional scripture have such an effect. No. The full nature of God is not known to any denomination, so how can one opinion or another lead to a valid claim to exclude others? The central doctrine if the LDS church is derived from the Bible. That Christ came to redeem mankind. Other doctrines that differ from other Christian sects are considered less important. They essentially added a backstory about God and Creation, and similarly added nuance to the Hereafter. I am troubled that I have Evangelical Christian friends that have essentially excluded many denominations other than those with the same fundamentalist beliefs. So they no longer accept Catholics, Anglican / Epicopalians, and Presbyterians yet alone Mormons, JWs, or Seventh Day Adventists. I accept all of the above as Christians. I think God has been saddest when there has been sectarian conflict leading to wars and killing others because they are considered heretics. To a lesser extent God is sad when brothers and sisters in Christ attack and demean each other. Christ taught that all men are brothers, so this includes those who do not profess belief in Him. Are replies from Christians made to create greater unity among us, or to create differences and divide us? I think I remember a very similar thread many years ago on the old board at IMDb. The same resorting to insults towards people with whom there is disagreement also seems familiar, from professed Christians claiming that others did not qualify as being followers of Christ. But I ask, is such behaviour what Christ would consider following Him? What matters more, insisting on exacting definitions of theology or bringing about the betterment of mankind in general and individuals in particular?
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 7, 2018 17:24:05 GMT
Being always quite happy to admit when I am wrong, I will agree with Cody on this one, in at least that Allah is not the same as the Holy Spirit. However just because it suits Cody and others of his ilk to say so, doesn't change the fact that Islam says it worships the same god as he does. If he rejects such a notion through any perceived contradictions, then it can be seen that neither major religions are free of them. The Quran alleges that the God of Islam, Allah, is indeed the God of Abraham and hence the God of Scripture, Yahweh Elohim. Significantly, Allah means God. The Aramaic and the Arabic word for God is similar sounding, in Aramaic it's Alaha in Arabic it's Allah. So it's highly likely when Jesus was speaking Aramaic and referring to God, he was addressing him as Alaha. When he was speaking Hebrew, he was using the term Elohim to refer to God. Remember the Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic languages share a common linguistic root, hence their respective words for God sound similar.
The Qu'ran alleges that the God of Islam, Allah, is indeed the God of Abraham and hence the God of Scripture, Yahweh Elohim. In the Qu'ran, Allah is described, amongst other things as follows:
The creator who created the universe in six days (10:3) The only God (5:73, 4:87) He is sovereign (9:70) He is knower of all things (2:29) He created Adam and Eve (2:31, 7:190) He was Abraham’s God (2:125) He was the God who sent Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh to liberate the people of Israel (7:103) He was the God who sent Jesus to earth: (3: 49-51) He gave man the Torah (the Old Testament), the Gospel (the New Testament) and then the Koran (3:3).
Sound a tad familiar? But perhaps there just happens to be two gods with such a pedigree? Not harbouring a belief in Allah, Jehovah or Allah-Jehovah so as to endlessly fret on and on about it, it is probably best to let the die-hards fight over perceived fine differences between themselves lol
But when no less than the pope says "All of us, Christians and Muslims, live under the sun of the one merciful God" etc and Islam says it too, it rather outguns the shrill denials of Cody and other fundamentalists
You have made a solid and convincing argument that Muslims, Christians, and Jews all believe in the same God. By any honest definition lacking in self-serving bias, all "Abrahamic" faiths accept the God of Abraham as their own. Muslims, Jews and other Christians are all brothers under the same God. Are Mormons Christians? A simple answer is "yes" but I think "yes, of course" is better. A Christian is somebody that believes in Jesus Christ and His teachings. I think to believe in His teachings one must at least try to follow them. Christ taught the greatest commandment was to love God, and the second greatest to love each other. Jesus said the way to love Him was to keep His commandments. His teachings to His followers are against being derisive and towards unity. Perhaps the most famous story Jesus related was about a man usually called The Good Samaritan. The Samaritans held to different beliefs, what should be accepted as scripture, etc. yet Jesus makes a powerful case that the Samaritan he tells about followed the God both he and the Jews claimed to believe in more sincerely. Mormons accept and attempt to follow all of Christ's teachings. Where they differ is a somewhat different concept about the nature of God, and accepting additional scripture. Does a different concept of God prevent them from following him and keeping biblical commandments? No. Does having additional scripture have such an effect. No. The full nature of God is not known to any denomination, so how can one opinion or another lead to a valid claim to exclude others? The central doctrine if the LDS church is derived from the Bible. That Christ came to redeem mankind. Other doctrines that differ from other Christian sects are considered less important. They essentially added a backstory about God and Creation, and similarly added nuance to the Hereafter. I am troubled that I have Evangelical Christian friends that have essentially excluded many denominations other than those with the same fundamentalist beliefs. So they no longer accept Catholics, Anglican / Epicopalians, and Presbyterians yet alone Mormons, JWs, or Seventh Day Adventists. I accept all of the above as Christians. I think God has been saddest when there has been sectarian conflict leading to wars and killing others because they are considered heretics. To a lesser extent God is sad when brothers and sisters in Christ attack and demean each other. Christ taught that all men are brothers, so this includes those who do not profess belief in Him. Are replies from Christians made to create greater unity among us, or to create differences and divide us? I think I remember a very similar thread many years ago on the old board at IMDb. The same resorting to insults towards people with whom there is disagreement also seems familiar, from professed Christians claiming that others did not qualify as being followers of Christ. But I ask, is such behaviour what Christ would consider following Him? What matters more, insisting on exacting definitions of theology or bringing about the betterment of mankind in general and individuals in particular? You seriously think Christians and Muslims worship the same God because the Quran and the pope say so is a “solid and convincing argument? LOL The rest of your post again begs the question, if “of course” Mormons are Christian with just a few minor differences in the nature of God, then why do you no longer identify as a member of the LDS church?
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 7, 2018 18:06:41 GMT
The bible makes it clear that Yahweh is a spirit being. Islam comes along centuries later and insists that Allah is NOT a spirit being. This is a contradiction which cannot be reconciled. And no “they’re the same God because Islam says so is not a proper argument. Either God is a spirit or he isn’t. Can’t have it both ways. Logically they cannot be the same God.
And? Incidentally most Muslims believe Allah is THE personal name of their God contradicting Exodus 3 where God reveals His personal name to be Yahweh and insists this to be the name he will be known from generation to generation.
So two Semitic languages use similar sounding words for God. Who would have thought it? BTW it’s Elaha not Alaha.
Again linguistics mean nothing here. Jesus also regularly referred to God as his Father but according to Islam Allah is a Father to no one and it’s considered blasphemous to suggest so.
Congratulations you found some parallels in a book about the nature of God and stupidly conclude that it proves they’re the same entity? Look up the word plagiarism.
Some significant differnces:
Yahweh is personal. Knowable and approachable. Allah is not.
Yahweh loves all people. Allah loves those he chooses to love and hates those he chooses to hate.
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Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
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Post by Eλευθερί on Jul 7, 2018 21:09:46 GMT
I think to believe in His teachings one must at least try to follow them. So you believe a person who believes that Jesus was the son of God, and that Jesus died for the sins of humanity to be forgiven, and that Jesus was resurrected after death, but who does not try to follow Jesus' teachings is not a Christian?
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Post by geode on Jul 8, 2018 7:03:21 GMT
I think to believe in His teachings one must at least try to follow them. So you believe a person who believes that Jesus was the son of God, and that Jesus died for the sins of humanity to be forgiven, and that Jesus was resurrected after death, but who does not try to follow Jesus' teachings is not a Christian? Does somebody who does not even try to follow the teachings of Jesus really believe that He is the Son of God who was resurrected and died for the sins of humanity? No, I don't think so. How can one have those beliefs and then totally disregard what Jesus taught? However, I think Satan qualifies in having those beliefs and not following Christ's teachings, but would any of us term The Devil as a "Christian"....? I think not.
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Post by geode on Jul 8, 2018 7:14:07 GMT
You have made a solid and convincing argument that Muslims, Christians, and Jews all believe in the same God. By any honest definition lacking in self-serving bias, all "Abrahamic" faiths accept the God of Abraham as their own. Muslims, Jews and other Christians are all brothers under the same God. Are Mormons Christians? A simple answer is "yes" but I think "yes, of course" is better. A Christian is somebody that believes in Jesus Christ and His teachings. I think to believe in His teachings one must at least try to follow them. Christ taught the greatest commandment was to love God, and the second greatest to love each other. Jesus said the way to love Him was to keep His commandments. His teachings to His followers are against being derisive and towards unity. Perhaps the most famous story Jesus related was about a man usually called The Good Samaritan. The Samaritans held to different beliefs, what should be accepted as scripture, etc. yet Jesus makes a powerful case that the Samaritan he tells about followed the God both he and the Jews claimed to believe in more sincerely. Mormons accept and attempt to follow all of Christ's teachings. Where they differ is a somewhat different concept about the nature of God, and accepting additional scripture. Does a different concept of God prevent them from following him and keeping biblical commandments? No. Does having additional scripture have such an effect. No. The full nature of God is not known to any denomination, so how can one opinion or another lead to a valid claim to exclude others? The central doctrine if the LDS church is derived from the Bible. That Christ came to redeem mankind. Other doctrines that differ from other Christian sects are considered less important. They essentially added a backstory about God and Creation, and similarly added nuance to the Hereafter. I am troubled that I have Evangelical Christian friends that have essentially excluded many denominations other than those with the same fundamentalist beliefs. So they no longer accept Catholics, Anglican / Epicopalians, and Presbyterians yet alone Mormons, JWs, or Seventh Day Adventists. I accept all of the above as Christians. I think God has been saddest when there has been sectarian conflict leading to wars and killing others because they are considered heretics. To a lesser extent God is sad when brothers and sisters in Christ attack and demean each other. Christ taught that all men are brothers, so this includes those who do not profess belief in Him. Are replies from Christians made to create greater unity among us, or to create differences and divide us? I think I remember a very similar thread many years ago on the old board at IMDb. The same resorting to insults towards people with whom there is disagreement also seems familiar, from professed Christians claiming that others did not qualify as being followers of Christ. But I ask, is such behaviour what Christ would consider following Him? What matters more, insisting on exacting definitions of theology or bringing about the betterment of mankind in general and individuals in particular? You seriously think Christians and Muslims worship the same God because the Quran and the pope say so is a “solid and convincing argument? LOL The rest of your post again begs the question, if “of course” Mormons are Christian with just a few minor differences in the nature of God, then why do you no longer identify as a member of the LDS church? I think I was quite plain that I think both Christians and Muslims worship the God of Abraham. Is this based upon what the Quran and the Pope claim? That the Pope realizes that this is the case just shows how much greater his understanding of God is than your understanding. Muhammad started out thinking Judaism was correct. He would split later as a new faith. What the Quran states about belief in God is basically as valid as what the Bible states coming from the respective beliefs of Muslims and Christians. Both are accepted as coming from divine sources. I have two biographies that claim that Abraham Lincoln was the president of the United States. They both claim he was a great president. However, they give different details and the two books even differ in places about whether Lincoln had been correct in decisions he made. Do the two books talk about two different men even though they both claim he was president and great? Is one a fake Lincoln and an imposter? The fans of one book claim that the man written about in it is the one and only authentic Lincoln, the one written about in the other book was not only not great, he wasn't even president. I no longer identify as a Mormon in part because I have some theological differences with them. I have never been Catholic and I have some theological differences with then, yet accept them as Christians. I probably have some theological differences with every Christian sect, yet accept them as Christians. That is why I am non-denominational at the moment. I Ihink I made that point clearly as well. There is no Christian sect that has everything entirely correct, it is just that where they have one detail or another a little out of whack does not invalidate their central core of belief in Christ.
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 8, 2018 8:37:32 GMT
geode In the quote FlimFlam cited the pope doesn’t actually say Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Muhammad also started out thinking he was demon possessed. If Muhammad was revealed revelations from the same divine source you believe in. Why are you not a Muslim, Geode? This argument isn’t about which of the two is more valid. It’s about whether or not the contradictions between the two can be reconciled so that it can still be logically deduced enough that both religions are represented by the same entity. They clearly can’t be. Yes Islam claims they are. But the reality is Yahweh and Allah are two different entities.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2018 9:56:43 GMT
geode In the quote FlimFlam cited the pope doesn’t actually say Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Muhammad also started out thinking he was demon possessed. If Muhammad was revealed revelations from the same divine source you believe in. Why are you not a Muslim, Geode? This argument isn’t about which of the two is more valid. It’s about whether or not the contradictions between the two can be reconciled so that it can still be logically deduced enough that both religions are represented by the same entity. They clearly can’t be. Yes Islam claims they are. But the reality is Yahweh and Allah are two different entities. People in the same Christian denomination differ over the interpretation of Yahweh more than some people differ over the comparison of Yahweh and Allah. That is, Yahweh can be interpreted more different from himself than from Allah. That neither surprises me nor bothers me especially much because those are highly abstract concepts not easily rendered in concrete terms. I think it is important though to remember that some details are trivial and some details are more significant. I think that on significant issues Jews and Muslims have more in common than some Jews and Christians do. This is not to say that Yahweh definitely is or definitely is not Allah. I suppose there are arguments both ways. I am disappointed in you that you seem so eager to dismiss the Muslims who agree with you more than either of you agrees with atheists.
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Post by Cody™ on Jul 8, 2018 10:13:41 GMT
Arlon10It’s not about taking sides it’s about establishing truth. The reason it’s important is because Muslims are worshiping a false God and thus in danger of missing out on salvation.
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