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Post by thisguy4000 on Jul 7, 2018 21:33:59 GMT
That strikes me as a rather cynical way to look at human nature. You’re seriously telling me the only way we as a civilization can be moral is if we live in fear of an entity that will torture us if we don’t do what we’re told?
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Post by Rodney Farber on Jul 7, 2018 21:42:08 GMT
... You’re seriously telling me the only way we as a civilization can be moral is if we live in fear of an entity that will torture us if we don’t do what we’re told? But first, you must give the church money.
The church needs to put the fear of God in you so that you come back next week to put money in the collection plate.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 7, 2018 21:52:45 GMT
Lol
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jul 7, 2018 21:54:15 GMT
I suppose because most are raised in a religious environment and are told that God is the source of morality from a young age. So people believe it and pass it down to their own children.
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Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
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Post by Eλευθερί on Jul 8, 2018 2:43:19 GMT
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jul 8, 2018 8:24:28 GMT
I always take theists' implied message as being that they are openly declaring that they really want to murder, rape, rob, etc and the only reason they don't do it is because of fear of what God will do to them.
I don't do those things because I came to the conclusion they were wrong all by myself.
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2018 12:40:54 GMT
I always take theists' implied message as being that they are openly declaring that they really want to murder, rape, rob, etc and the only reason they don't do it is because of fear of what God will do to them. I don't do those things because I came to the conclusion they were wrong all by myself. The false assumption in your "reasoning" is that one size fits all, that all people acquire morals the exact same way. It is not only possible but obviously likely they do not aquire them the same way. The "religious" probably need far less training than for example you do. So the training is not so much for them as it is for you. Maybe you were just trying to be funny. I suppose a lot of people with flawed reasoning like yours will find it funny. I've actually met intelligent atheists, but you're not one of them. |
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2018 12:44:57 GMT
Why do people with no moral compass think they have one?
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jul 8, 2018 13:26:15 GMT
I always take theists' implied message as being that they are openly declaring that they really want to murder, rape, rob, etc and the only reason they don't do it is because of fear of what God will do to them. I don't do those things because I came to the conclusion they were wrong all by myself. The false assumption in your "reasoning" is that one size fits all, that all people acquire morals the exact same way. It is not only possible but obviously likely they do not aquire them the same way. The "religious" probably need far less training than for example you do. So the training is not so much for them as it is for you. Maybe you were just trying to be funny. I suppose a lot of people with flawed reasoning like yours will find it funny. I've actually met intelligent atheists, but you're not one of them. I'm not following your point here - you're going to need to explain it more. Do theists get their morals from their "religious training" (strange choice of words, but their yours - not mine)? Or somewhere else? And if it's religious training where would they get them from if they hadn't received that? Or wouldn't they have any and they would be out murdering and raping people? I think you need the flesh out your argument a bit. |
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Post by Vegas on Jul 8, 2018 13:34:56 GMT
Why do people think God is necessary to have a moral compass? Why do SOME people think that? I dunno.. It probably has to do with the same reason that some people ask stupid over-generalized questions that stroke their own ego. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jul 8, 2018 13:38:31 GMT
Why do people think God is necessary to have a moral compass? Why do SOME people think that? I dunno.. It probably has to do with the same reason that some people ask stupid over-generalized questions that stroke their own ego. I was never trying to suggest that all, or even most people believe that. In fact, I distinctly remember reading from a poll last year that more than 50% of Americans don’t believe God is necessary to have a moral compass. I was simply asking why this has been a prevailing viewpoint for a good chunk of human history. Way t stroke your own ego by suggesting that anyone who asks a question that bothers you is trying to stroke theirs. |
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Post by Vegas on Jul 8, 2018 13:41:18 GMT
I don't do those things because I came to the conclusion they were wrong all by myself. Well.... That and being a product of 10,00 years of mostly religious-based civilization. But, hey.... Who's counting? |
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Post by Vegas on Jul 8, 2018 13:51:16 GMT
Why do SOME people think that? I dunno.. It probably has to do with the same reason that some people ask stupid over-generalized questions that stroke their own ego. I was never trying to suggest that all, or even most people believe that. In fact, I distinctly remember reading from a poll last year that more than 50% of Americans don’t believe God is necessary to have a moral compass. I was simply asking why this has been a prevailing viewpoint for a good chunk of human history. Way t stroke your own ego by suggesting that anyone who asks a question that bothers you is trying to stroke theirs. I was just about to put an EDIT on my post that pointed out that "people" can have an implied "some": "Why do the people who do ___ do ___?" But.. It really is a question that doesn't need to be asked. The 50+% of those people polled don't really believe that the other 49-% are murderous heathen because they don't believe in God. Yes... There are some astoundingly self-righteous assholes out there.. but they don't really represent anything. And asking morons like us on this board to answer for them is just pointless.... as we don't really know how those other even-more moronic morons really think... It's just how we imagine those people to be that would be our answer. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jul 8, 2018 13:51:43 GMT
I don't do those things because I came to the conclusion they were wrong all by myself. Well.... That and being a product of 10,00 years of mostly religious-based civilization. But, hey.... Who's counting? Countries with higher rates of atheists or irreligious people like Sweden seem to be doing fine. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jul 8, 2018 13:55:40 GMT
I was never trying to suggest that all, or even most people believe that. In fact, I distinctly remember reading from a poll last year that more than 50% of Americans don’t believe God is necessary to have a moral compass. I was simply asking why this has been a prevailing viewpoint for a good chunk of human history. Way t stroke your own ego by suggesting that anyone who asks a question that bothers you is trying to stroke theirs. I was just about to put an EDIT on my post that pointed out that "people" can have an implied "some": "Why do the people who do ___ do ___?" But.. It really is a question that doesn't need to be asked. The 50+% of those people polled don't really believe that the other 49-% are murderous heathen because they don't believe in God. Yes... There are some astoundingly self-righteous assholes out there.. but they don't really represent anything. And asking morons like us on this board to answer for them is just pointless.... as we don't really know how those other even-more moronic morons really think... It's just how we imagine those people to be that would be our answer. This is a board that’s all about religion and faith, isn’t it? I assumed this was the most appropriate place to ask these kinds of questions. I wasn’t trying to make a generalization about religious people. I was questioning why some of the especially self-righteous religious people out there seem to be under this impression that the fear in some malevolent magic man (which is what God would be when you break it down) is the only thing keeping us from being a bunch of murderous monsters. |
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Post by Vegas on Jul 8, 2018 13:57:50 GMT
Well.... That and being a product of 10,00 years of mostly religious-based civilization. But, hey.... Who's counting?  …. Once again... A product of 10,000 years of mostly religious-based civilization. If Sweden just materialized from another dimension 20 years ago... You might have a point. The fact that, as an adult, I don't crawl and can run.... doesn't change the fact that I learned to walk as a child.
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Post by Vegas on Jul 8, 2018 14:01:06 GMT
I was just about to put an EDIT on my post that pointed out that "people" can have an implied "some": "Why do the people who do ___ do ___?" But.. It really is a question that doesn't need to be asked. The 50+% of those people polled don't really believe that the other 49-% are murderous heathen because they don't believe in God. Yes... There are some astoundingly self-righteous assholes out there.. but they don't really represent anything. And asking morons like us on this board to answer for them is just pointless.... as we don't really know how those other even-more moronic morons really think... It's just how we imagine those people to be that would be our answer. This is a board that’s all about religion and faith, isn’t it? I assumed this was the most appropriate place to ask these kinds of questions. I wasn’t trying to make a generalization about religious people. I was questioning why some of the especially self-righteous religious people out there seem to be under this impression that the fear in some malevolent magic man (which is what God would be when you break it down) is the only thing keeping us from being a bunch of murderous monsters. I dunno…. But, I will point out that even The Bible states that the non-religious have morality codes... and are some times more righteous than those that claim to be righteous for religious purposes. So... grain of salt, I suppose. |
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Post by Arlon10 on Jul 8, 2018 14:01:41 GMT
The false assumption in your "reasoning" is that one size fits all, that all people acquire morals the exact same way. It is not only possible but obviously likely they do not aquire them the same way. The "religious" probably need far less training than for example you do. So the training is not so much for them as it is for you. Maybe you were just trying to be funny. I suppose a lot of people with flawed reasoning like yours will find it funny. I've actually met intelligent atheists, but you're not one of them. I'm not following your point here - you're going to need to explain it more. Do theists get their morals from their "religious training" (strange choice of words, but their yours - not mine)? Or somewhere else? And if it's religious training where would they get them from if they hadn't received that? Or wouldn't they have any and they would be out murdering and raping people? I think you need the flesh out your argument a bit. I think I've been very clear. It does not necessarily follow that simply because religious people use their religion as a tool to help other people acquire morals, that they needed much help themselves acquiring their morals. Your suspicion that they would be murderers or rapists without their religion is a non sequitur. I noted the reason for your flaw. You assumed that all people must acquire morals the same. I'm sorry I can't tell you why some people acquire morals so much easier than atheists. For 300 different religious people there might be 300 different reasons. It is obvious though that not all atheists have a complete set of good morals. I have met atheists though with a better set than others. There are even some atheists with a better set of morals than some Christians. Those are the exceptions though, not the rule. The general rule is that religion does promote good morals. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jul 8, 2018 14:03:23 GMT
Countries with higher rates of atheists or irreligious people like Sweden seem to be doing fine. …. Once again... A product of 10,000 years of mostly religious-based civilization. If Sweden just materialized from another dimension 20 years ago... You might have a point. The fact that, as an adult, I don't crawl and can run.... doesn't change the fact that I learned to walk as a child. I could just as easily make the argument that countries like Sweden are increasingly viewing religion as obsolete, and that they are becoming all the better for it. I’m not necessarily making that argument, since I don’t think that religion has to be an inherently awful thing, but I do think it’s absolutely ridiculous how some religious people apparently think that the only way human beings are capable of being moral is if we fear God, especially when certain religious extremists have caused more than their fair share of wars and genocides (and no, I’m not solely referring to Muslims). In general, it just strikes me as being an incredibly cynical view of human nature. |
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Post by Vegas on Jul 8, 2018 14:04:30 GMT
…. Once again... A product of 10,000 years of mostly religious-based civilization. If Sweden just materialized from another dimension 20 years ago... You might have a point. The fact that, as an adult, I don't crawl and can run.... doesn't change the fact that I learned to walk as a child. I could just as easily make the argument that countries like Sweden are increasingly viewing religion as obsolete, and that they are becoming all the better for it. I’m not necessarily making that argument, since I don’t think that religion has to be an inherently awful thing, but I do think it’s absolutely ridiculous how some religious people apparently think that the only way human beings are capable of being moral is if we fear God, especially when certain religious extremists have caused more than their fair share of wars and genocides. In general, it just strikes me as being an incredibly cynical view of human nature. Or at the very least a cynical view of themselves.  - "If I didn't believe in God, I'd be out there raping, murdering and stealing?"  - "You would?!!" Of course... I think that just what some people might say [EDIT: as a form of personal hyberbole].... I don't really believe they'd be out there raping, murdering, and stealing [if things were different]. |
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