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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Sept 3, 2018 19:54:53 GMT
A friend pointed this out to me and its true
personally i never seen jon act out like that when someone
questioned his ability to fight someone , night before the battle of bastards
sansa tells jon he doesnt know ramsey and that "he is far better at this
than you are" and jon stood up it was actually funny..lol especially jons reply
to sansa "what do you think i was doing playing with broom sticks?"dont think even sansa was
expecting jon to react that way
i dont think sansa was doubting how good of a fighter jon is but i think she was trying
to let jon know that ramsey is a dirty player and he doesnt play by the book like jon does
i just think jon was jealous of sansa recognition of ramseys ways.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 4, 2018 6:45:44 GMT
There are several ways of interpreting Jon's behaviour in this scene. Jealousy is one, which can be generalised to the very generic shame of men being placed at a disadvantage to another man in front of the ladies, regardless of the ladies themselves. In that generalised interpretation. Jon's potential interest in Sansa is not at stake, only his own self esteem as a man.
Other interpretations:
"I'm doing my best, what more do you want from me?" - this is at the core of Jon's behaviour in the whole situation. "I know it's not enough but it's what we have". Jon will engage in battle with an inferior army and no serious prospect of victory. He is more about "doing right" than succeeding. Here again, we see the root of the opposition between Starks and Lannisters, between valuing intentions and valuing results.
The Starks are idealists who want to be seen as doing the right thing when the Lannisters are realists who care for the outcome. Jon is ready to die, he will ask Melisandre not to bring him back if he does. Sansa is not willing to lose at any cost. She says she won't go back there alive but she's trying to help the outcome even though she has no grasp of military matters, which leads to the next point.
"Don't tell me of problems I didn't see if you have no solution to them" - Jon has been made an utter fool this season. Sansa's input on Ramsay is valuable but of course, the general has to make use of this information as he uses that from his scouts. Scouts are not asked for tactical advice.
Jon is also overwhelmed by the situation. He has never fought an army in such a position. He's a fighter and can be a good leader of men in battle but not a general. These are not hordes of widlings coming at the Wall and he knows Sansa is right. There is despair in his reaction, which is why he'll go to Melisandre in a later scene.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Sept 6, 2018 16:23:12 GMT
There are several ways of interpreting Jon's behaviour in this scene. Jealousy is one, which can be generalised to the very generic shame of men being placed at a disadvantage to another man in front of the ladies, regardless of the ladies themselves. In that generalised interpretation. Jon's potential interest in Sansa is not at stake, only his own self esteem as a man. Other interpretations: "I'm doing my best, what more do you want from me?" - this is at the core of Jon's behaviour in the whole situation. "I know it's not enough but it's what we have". Jon will engage in battle with an inferior army and no serious prospect of victory. He is more about "doing right" than succeeding. Here again, we see the root of the opposition between Starks and Lannisters, between valuing intentions and valuing results. The Starks are idealists who want to be seen as doing the right thing when the Lannisters are realists who care for the outcome. Jon is ready to die, he will ask Melisandre not to bring him back if he does. Sansa is not willing to lose at any cost. She says she won't go back there alive but she's trying to help the outcome even though she has no grasp of military matters, which leads to the next point. "Don't tell me of problems I didn't see if you have no solution to them" - Jon has been made an utter fool this season. Sansa's input on Ramsay is valuable but of course, the general has to make use of this information as he uses that from his scouts. Scouts are not asked for tactical advice. Jon is also overwhelmed by the situation. He has never fought an army in such a position. He's a fighter and can be a good leader of men in battle but not a general. These are not hordes of widlings coming at the Wall and he knows Sansa is right. There is despair in his reaction, which is why he'll go to Melisandre in a later scene. wow Leo thats very good assessment of the scene and how you interpreting it - as much as i like jon , i never liked how he went to melissandre and told her not to bring him back if he falls but he also did that right after that conversation he had with sansa she told him in the end if ramsey wins , she was not going back to ramsey or back there alive meaning she would rather be dead or kill herself so there is two ways to see that , but jon like you say knows of battles and did feel out of character for him when he knew the danger he and his men were facing but still wanted to fight with the men they had which were not enough, sansa in the end was right they needed more men and im glad she took charge and had the lord of the vales charge and perhaps if jon was more open to her instead of yelling at her she may have opened up more to him about LF and lord of the vales. |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 6, 2018 16:34:58 GMT
jon like you say knows of battles and did feel out of character for him when he knew the danger he and his men were facing but still wanted to fight with the men they had which were not enough, sansa in the end was right they needed more men and im glad she took charge and had the lord of the vales charge and perhaps if jon was more open to her instead of yelling at her she may have opened up more to him about LF and lord of the vales. Characters were butchered for the sake of effect in S6. Jon was no longer thinking right so he could run head on into a desperate situation and Sansa was made to act with illogical, unexplained secrecy. It was all about making viewers think Episode 9 would be yet another heartbreak to pick them up at the very last moment. Then there would be all sorts of speculations about Sansa's loyalties as a bonus. It worked, fools were fooled as they always are but both Jon and Sansa became idiots in the process. |
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Sept 6, 2018 16:41:26 GMT
jon like you say knows of battles and did feel out of character for him when he knew the danger he and his men were facing but still wanted to fight with the men they had which were not enough, sansa in the end was right they needed more men and im glad she took charge and had the lord of the vales charge and perhaps if jon was more open to her instead of yelling at her she may have opened up more to him about LF and lord of the vales. Characters were butchered for the sake of effect in S6. Jon was no longer thinking right so he could run head on into a desperate situation and Sansa was made to act with illogical, unexplained secrecy. It was all about making viewers think Episode 9 would be yet another heartbreak to pick them up at the very last moment. Then there would be all sorts of speculations about Sansa's loyalties as a bonus. It worked, fools were fooled as they always are but both Jon and Sansa became idiots in the process. i didnt like what they did to both characters and didnt make sense its obvious writers always want to keep fans guessing if sansa will betray her brother they are really not sansa fans ,all thier scenes they glorify dany , i mean they had sansa get raped and in the book doesnt happen to her so i dont know what to think |
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 6, 2018 17:05:54 GMT
Characters were butchered for the sake of effect in S6. Jon was no longer thinking right so he could run head on into a desperate situation and Sansa was made to act with illogical, unexplained secrecy. It was all about making viewers think Episode 9 would be yet another heartbreak to pick them up at the very last moment. Then there would be all sorts of speculations about Sansa's loyalties as a bonus. It worked, fools were fooled as they always are but both Jon and Sansa became idiots in the process. i didnt like what they did to both characters and didnt make sense its obvious writers always want to keep fans guessing if sansa will betray her brother they are really not sansa fans ,all thier scenes they glorify dany , i mean they had sansa get raped and in the book doesnt happen to her so i dont know what to think The writers are not glorifying Daenerys. They have been portraying her more and more as a tyrant as time went on. They went as far as to compare her speech to the Dothraki to the Nuremberg Nazi rallies in their "Inside the Episode" of S6E06. All the signs are there, blatantly visible, fools just won't accept them. I don't know if they are "Sansa fans" but they have built her up to the one who brings the compromise between reality and the wish to do right. If I am not mistaken, she did swallow her political disagreement with Jon in S7 for the sake of his being the recognised king, which is the sign of a mature person, a probable survivor and a potential winner. Yes, she went through abuse and terror, like about everyone else and I am pretty sure she'll be standing tall at the end. |
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 8, 2018 15:06:38 GMT
Jon is ruled by his emotions and thinks in terms of battle and/or diplomacy.
His actions are not unusual in my opinion.
Sansa is pointing out that Ramsey is a chess player who also cheats & Jon isn't intelligent enough to understand that which in and of itself proves Sansa's point.
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