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Post by Agent of Chaos on Sept 11, 2018 20:08:04 GMT
I was reading the original Horsemen storyline in the 80s X-Factor series and I noticed that all the horsemen including Angel followed Apocalypse because he gave them what they wanted and he brought out the subconscious darker side of their personalities with a drug, rather than making them mindless slaves like you see in the 90s cartoon and X-Men: Evolution. It was more in line with Angel’s transformation in the Wolverine & The X-Men cartoon where Sinister brought out the darker side of his personality.
This aspects seems to have been forgotten in the 21st century X-books. Did writers just get lazy and decided to not give the horsemen motives?
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 11, 2018 22:03:49 GMT
I was reading the original Horsemen storyline in the 80s X-Factor series and I noticed that all the horsemen including Angel followed Apocalypse because he gave them what they wanted and he brought out the subconscious darker side of their personalities with a drug, rather than making them mindless slaves like you see in the 90s cartoon and X-Men: Evolution. It was more in line with Angel’s transformation in the Wolverine & The X-Men cartoon where Sinister brought out the darker side of his personality. This aspects seems to have been forgotten in the 21st century X-books. Did writers just get lazy and decided to not give the horsemen motives? Isn't using something to bring out their darkside a form of brainwashing? It's still not who they are. They are being changed. |
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Sept 11, 2018 23:24:09 GMT
I was reading the original Horsemen storyline in the 80s X-Factor series and I noticed that all the horsemen including Angel followed Apocalypse because he gave them what they wanted and he brought out the subconscious darker side of their personalities with a drug, rather than making them mindless slaves like you see in the 90s cartoon and X-Men: Evolution. It was more in line with Angel’s transformation in the Wolverine & The X-Men cartoon where Sinister brought out the darker side of his personality. This aspects seems to have been forgotten in the 21st century X-books. Did writers just get lazy and decided to not give the horsemen motives? Isn't using something to bring out their darkside a form of brainwashing? It's still not who they are. They are being changed. Brainwashing is defined as making someone adopt different beliefs. They are being changed but it is who the horsemen subconsciously are. These are their surpassed thoughts. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 12, 2018 15:33:38 GMT
Isn't using something to bring out their darkside a form of brainwashing? It's still not who they are. They are being changed. Brainwashing is defined as making someone adopt different beliefs. They are being changed but it is who the horsemen subconsciously are. These are their surpassed thoughts. So you saying that Angel would knowingly kill the X-men? |
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Sept 12, 2018 16:01:44 GMT
Brainwashing is defined as making someone adopt different beliefs. They are being changed but it is who the horsemen subconsciously are. These are their surpassed thoughts. So you saying that Angel would knowingly kill the X-men? Ever seen Scarface? Remember when Tony killed his friend Manny in a fit of blind rage and regretted it not long afterwards? That’s what happened to Angel when he thought he killed Iceman. According to Jean Warren is responsible for his actions. Angel wanted to believe that Apocalypse fueled him with a bloodlust but in reality he subconsciously wanted to do all that stuff. Since she is a telepath what’s saying is legit. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 12, 2018 16:03:08 GMT
So you saying that Angel would knowingly kill the X-men? Ever seen Scarface? Remember when Tony killed his friend Manny in a fit of blind rage and regretted it not long afterwards? That’s what happened to Angel when he thought he killed Iceman. According to Jean Warren is responsible for his actions. Angel wanted to believe that Apocalypse fueled him with a bloodlust but in reality he subconsciously wanted to do all that stuff. Since she is a telepath what’s saying is legit. You mean like when she turned 2 Icemen gay? |
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Sept 12, 2018 16:40:58 GMT
Ever seen Scarface? Remember when Tony killed his friend Manny in a fit of blind rage and regretted it not long afterwards? That’s what happened to Angel when he thought he killed Iceman. According to Jean Warren is responsible for his actions. Angel wanted to believe that Apocalypse fueled him with a bloodlust but in reality he subconsciously wanted to do all that stuff. Since she is a telepath what’s saying is legit. You mean like when she turned 2 Icemen gay? Unlike Iceman there were always hints that Warren’s rage is his own. Even Apocalypse during the X-Factor storyline said that the only thing he did was remove the reservations of the horsemen. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 12, 2018 20:07:38 GMT
You mean like when she turned 2 Icemen gay? Unlike Iceman there were always hints that Warren’s rage is his own. Even Apocalypse during the X-Factor storyline said that the only thing he did was remove the reservations of the horsemen. And removing the reservations is brainwashing. He's doing something to a person's mind. |
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Post by charzhino on Sept 12, 2018 20:30:12 GMT
Unlike Iceman there were always hints that Warren’s rage is his own. Even Apocalypse during the X-Factor storyline said that the only thing he did was remove the reservations of the horsemen. And removing the reservations is brainwashing. He's doing something to a person's mind. It is unclear but it is hinted that Apocalypse is somehow warping their minds. He is accused of twisting the horsemen Famine to which he replies that he simply amplified their powers. To which Cyke replies "Perverted them you mean as you perverted Warrens. Turned that Angel of life to the Angel of Death" Then Apocalypse kind of refuses to deny that accusation and starts talking about how the humans deserve no better. So it is a possibility that as Apocalypse amplifies a mutants power it also causes somekind of slave type following. |
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Sept 12, 2018 20:44:29 GMT
And removing the reservations is brainwashing. He's doing something to a person's mind. Sure. But it’s not the type of brainwashing you see in the 90s cartoon and X-Men: Evolution. It is unclear but it is hinted that Apocalypse is somehow warping their minds. He is accused of twisting the horsemen Famine to which he replies that he simply amplified their powers. To which Cyke replies "Perverted them you mean as you perverted Warrens. Turned that Angel of life to the Angel of Death" Then Apocalypse kind of refuses to deny that accusation and starts talking about how the humans deserve no better. So it is a possibility that as Apocalypse amplifies a mutants power it also causes somekind of slave type following. And then later Famine says that she fellows Apocalypse because he lets her embrace the fact that she is a mutant, which her parents forced her to hide. Jean then says that they are loyal to Apocalypse like they are loyal to Xavier. It’s suppose to be ambiguous. |
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Post by charzhino on Sept 12, 2018 20:54:20 GMT
And then later Famine says that she fellows Apocalypse because he lets her embrace the fact that she is a mutant, which her parents forced her to hide. Jean then says that they are loyal to Apocalypse like they are loyal to Xavier. It’s suppose to be ambiguous. Yes but Apocalypse takes advantage of their misfortunes at the hands of humans like Famine being "brainwashed" to believe all humans are glutinous and just want to live, eat and get fat. Angel gets his mind turned against humans after they amputated his wings. I think its alluding to Apocalypses strong power to influence the mind. If he can manipulate physical powers, he can manipulate thoughts and mindsets imo. |
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Sept 12, 2018 22:00:08 GMT
And then later Famine says that she fellows Apocalypse because he lets her embrace the fact that she is a mutant, which her parents forced her to hide. Jean then says that they are loyal to Apocalypse like they are loyal to Xavier. It’s suppose to be ambiguous. Yes but Apocalypse takes advantage of their misfortunes at the hands of humans like Famine being "brainwashed" to believe all humans are glutinous and just want to live, eat and get fat. Angel gets his mind turned against humans after they amputated his wings. I think its alluding to Apocalypses strong power to influence the mind. If he can manipulate physical powers, he can manipulate thoughts and mindsets imo. Thing is that Famine was already saying similar things like that before Apocalypse took her. Same with Angel, he was starting to lose faith in humanity before his transformation. I think Apocalypse was implying that he “amplified” what was already there. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 13, 2018 15:11:23 GMT
And removing the reservations is brainwashing. He's doing something to a person's mind. Sure. But it’s not the type of brainwashing you see in the 90s cartoon and X-Men: Evolution. It is unclear but it is hinted that Apocalypse is somehow warping their minds. He is accused of twisting the horsemen Famine to which he replies that he simply amplified their powers. To which Cyke replies "Perverted them you mean as you perverted Warrens. Turned that Angel of life to the Angel of Death" Then Apocalypse kind of refuses to deny that accusation and starts talking about how the humans deserve no better. So it is a possibility that as Apocalypse amplifies a mutants power it also causes somekind of slave type following. And then later Famine says that she fellows Apocalypse because he lets her embrace the fact that she is a mutant, which her parents forced her to hide. Jean then says that they are loyal to Apocalypse like they are loyal to Xavier. It’s suppose to be ambiguous. Brainwashing is brainwashing. The type of it means nothing. Hell, simple manipulation is brainwashing. I think when you think brainwashing, you are thinking a total mind change. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 13, 2018 15:12:30 GMT
And then later Famine says that she fellows Apocalypse because he lets her embrace the fact that she is a mutant, which her parents forced her to hide. Jean then says that they are loyal to Apocalypse like they are loyal to Xavier. It’s suppose to be ambiguous. Yes but Apocalypse takes advantage of their misfortunes at the hands of humans like Famine being "brainwashed" to believe all humans are glutinous and just want to live, eat and get fat. Angel gets his mind turned against humans after they amputated his wings. I think its alluding to Apocalypses strong power to influence the mind. If he can manipulate physical powers, he can manipulate thoughts and mindsets imo. This.
Also, movie Magneto does the same thing. Look what he did to Pyro in X2 and Mystique in First Class without using powers.
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Post by charzhino on Sept 13, 2018 18:53:56 GMT
Yes but Apocalypse takes advantage of their misfortunes at the hands of humans like Famine being "brainwashed" to believe all humans are glutinous and just want to live, eat and get fat. Angel gets his mind turned against humans after they amputated his wings. I think its alluding to Apocalypses strong power to influence the mind. If he can manipulate physical powers, he can manipulate thoughts and mindsets imo. This.
Also, movie Magneto does the same thing. Look what he did to Pyro in X2 and Mystique in First Class without using powers.
I guess and Magneto was more subtle about his approach. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Sept 13, 2018 19:12:33 GMT
This.
Also, movie Magneto does the same thing. Look what he did to Pyro in X2 and Mystique in First Class without using powers.
I guess and Magneto was more subtle about his approach. He had to be because didn't have the powers to. Although, in the comics, didn't they give him low level telepathy? |
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Post by Agent of Chaos on Sept 13, 2018 19:49:25 GMT
I guess and Magneto was more subtle about his approach. He had to be because didn't have the powers to. Although, in the comics, didn't they give him low level telepathy? In the original run during the 60s and 70s. It’s been forgotten since. |
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