|
|
Post by geode on Sept 17, 2018 9:56:12 GMT
Sam Young excommunicated
Sam Young has been excommunicated from the Mormon church for criticizing the church policy of conducting interviews with their youth where sexually explicit questions are sometimes asked (although his excommunication notice claims this is not the reason, it really is). His excommunication was over his being accused of heresy, but this practice is a policy and not doctrine. My own opinion is the the policy will be changed, in part because of Sam's publicising the practice. I think this adds to the PR disaster for the church, but was the expected outcome as the top church leaders do not reality allow for any criticism coming from members. I would guess at least a few hundred resignations for the church will result over this. It is as if the leaders pride matters more than the members. So much for Christ's teaching about lost sheep. However, it raises in my mind a matter I never really thought about before. This excommunication supposedly invalidates all the church ordinances Sam was was part of, such as baptism, and his temple endowment and marriage sealing. There were strict requirements in how these are performed. Some require the "laying on of hands" and other set ritual procedures. How can a letter undo this? How do you "unlay upon with hands" etc. According to Mormons the ritual ceremonies are done using God's power and authority. Does not God have a voice in this matter? His excommunication was immediate on the issuing of the letter. He has 30 days to appeal to the First Presidency. If they were to reverse the decision (unlikely as they probably instigated and approved of it) he would in theory just immediately become a member again. But if the excommunication holds he would need to wait a year and be baptized again to become a member again. He would need to reapply for a "restoration of blessings" to make his temple work valid again, and his priesthood. This eems to show holes or non-consistency in how "authority" is understood and applied In the Mormon church. Sometimes just paper shuffling affects ordinances needing God's authority and at other times an actually ordinance needs to be performed. Are there any Mormons here that can explain this to me? Video report
|
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 17, 2018 11:51:35 GMT
Excommunication for apostasy makes sense.
The undoing ritual part is odd. Perhaps if the ritual is seen as something God adds to, maybe they are of the view that it is completely taken away upon excommunication. I assume that they state they involve God in that process as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by geode on Sept 17, 2018 12:34:23 GMT
Excommunication for apostasy makes sense. The undoing ritual part is odd. Perhaps if the ritual is seen as something God adds to, maybe they are of the view that it is completely taken away upon excommunication. I assume that they state they involve God in that process as well. Yes, but where is the apostasy? It would seem that Sam does not disagree with Mormon doctrine or theology, but a practice that is not in the Bible, or even other writings Mormons claim as scripture. He disagreed with the Mormon leadership. Should disagreeing with leaders be a cause for claiming heresy? Yes, I think the Mormons do think that all is removed through excommunication. They claim to seek divine guidence through prayer about excommunication, in this case by a stake president. However, this case was so prominent that it is likely that senior leadership in Salt Lake City was involved. |
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 17, 2018 13:25:17 GMT
Excommunication for apostasy makes sense. The undoing ritual part is odd. Perhaps if the ritual is seen as something God adds to, maybe they are of the view that it is completely taken away upon excommunication. I assume that they state they involve God in that process as well. Yes, but where is the apostasy? It would seem that Sam does not disagree with Mormon doctrine or theology, but a practice that is not in the Bible, or even other writings Mormons claim as scripture. He disagreed with the Mormon leadership. Should disagreeing with leaders be a cause for claiming heresy? Yes, I think the Mormons do think that all is removed through excommunication. They claim to seek divine guidence through prayer about excommunication, in this case by a stake president. However, this case was so prominent that it is likely that senior leadership in Salt Lake City was involved. Well, the procedure would be a structural component of some doctrinal point or theology. However, apostasy can be against the institution itself as well as how they handle matters. Basically anything that disrupts the harmony of the institution could be considered something worthy of ex-communication. It's just like firing someone. |
|
|
|
Post by geode on Sept 17, 2018 14:16:00 GMT
Yes, but where is the apostasy? It would seem that Sam does not disagree with Mormon doctrine or theology, but a practice that is not in the Bible, or even other writings Mormons claim as scripture. He disagreed with the Mormon leadership. Should disagreeing with leaders be a cause for claiming heresy? Yes, I think the Mormons do think that all is removed through excommunication. They claim to seek divine guidence through prayer about excommunication, in this case by a stake president. However, this case was so prominent that it is likely that senior leadership in Salt Lake City was involved. Well, the procedure would be a structural component of some doctrinal point or theology. However, apostasy can be against the institution itself as well as how they handle matters. Basically anything that disrupts the harmony of the institution could be considered something worthy of ex-communication. It's just like firing someone. Sam's crusade is to eliminate a disruptive practice. The doctrine is that worthiness is between members and God. The bottom line is he did not obey a leader when he was told to stop his outspoken criticisms. Since he was warned the church altered its procedure for the first time in decades, they just have not changed it enough for Sam. I am pretty sure they will actually come to make the changes he has identified. They will say it is some sort of revelation. |
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 17, 2018 14:47:19 GMT
Well, the procedure would be a structural component of some doctrinal point or theology. However, apostasy can be against the institution itself as well as how they handle matters. Basically anything that disrupts the harmony of the institution could be considered something worthy of ex-communication. It's just like firing someone. Sam's crusade is to eliminate a disruptive practice. The doctrine is that worthiness is between members and God. The bottom line is he did not obey a leader when he was told to stop his outspoken criticisms. Since he was warned the church altered its procedure for the first time in decades, they just have not changed it enough for Sam. I am pretty sure they will actually come to make the changes he has identified. They will say it is some sort of revelation. This is kind of my point. He is actively trying to disrupt a practice that has been around for decades and there's not much indication he has a doctrinal point to counteract it with. As you said it has become largely about what he wants even if it started out as something that the church thought was beneficial and he did so outside the bounds of of their guidelines which I can only assume would never involve the press. |
|
|
|
Post by thefleetsin on Sept 17, 2018 15:06:27 GMT
free at last! free at last! thank imaginary father spirit figure he's free at last!
|
|
|
|
Post by geode on Sept 18, 2018 11:19:04 GMT
There is a website quitmormon.com that helps members of record of the LDS church resign their membership. Apparently this site alone has received 2,000 requests since Sam Young's excommunication was announced. Many others would have applied directly to the church. I expected this. In Mormon teachings they refer to separating the wheat from the tares. The leadership probably considers those leaving to be totally expendable, but what would Christ say about this attitude?
|
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 18, 2018 11:29:23 GMT
It's always a good thing for both the institution and the individual for them to leave when they don;t believe or agree with their policies.
|
|
|
|
Post by geode on Sept 18, 2018 11:33:05 GMT
It's always a good thing for both the institution and the individual for them to leave when they don;t believe or agree with their policies. What if the institution claims to be headed by Jesus Christ, and those leaving still fervantly still believe in the teachings of Christ? |
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 18, 2018 12:09:51 GMT
It's always a good thing for both the institution and the individual for them to leave when they don;t believe or agree with their policies. What if the institution claims to be headed by Jesus Christ, and those leaving still fervantly still believe in the teachings of Christ? Then they start their own church that teaches what they feel is the truth. Rebellions simply leaf to splits or more rebellion anyway which is just as disruptive, actually more so, than pushing back on organizational policy. No decent religion should concern itself with numbers although they should routinely audit their processes. That said, I don't know anything about these interviews. I have no issues with them asking uncomfortable questions but I do think there should always be at least two people just to avoid accusations. In any event, those are the processes they chose and it is costing them publicity wise as well as membership wise. If they are willing to weather the storm on it and the people are willing to leave, then there will be an equilibrium point eventually. |
|
|
|
Post by Rodney Farber on Sept 19, 2018 1:41:27 GMT
Yes, but where is the apostasy? It would seem that Sam does not disagree with Mormon doctrine or theology, but a practice that is not in the Bible, or even other writings Mormons claim as scripture. He disagreed with the Mormon leadership. Should disagreeing with leaders be a cause for claiming heresy? ... Religion isn't about belief. Religion is about power and the desire to control the beliefs and actions of the congregation. |
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 19, 2018 1:43:01 GMT
Yes, but where is the apostasy? It would seem that Sam does not disagree with Mormon doctrine or theology, but a practice that is not in the Bible, or even other writings Mormons claim as scripture. He disagreed with the Mormon leadership. Should disagreeing with leaders be a cause for claiming heresy? ... Religion isn't about belief. Religion is about power and the desire to control the beliefs and actions of the congregation. lol |
|
Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
|
Post by Eλευθερί on Sept 19, 2018 3:30:48 GMT
Fun fact: Little Boots Marco Rubio (an American senator) used to be a mormon. But he turned his back on God.
... and became a Catholic.
Now he quotes scriptures in his daily tweets
|
|
Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
|
Post by Eλευθερί on Sept 19, 2018 3:31:09 GMT
^ although Marco is no longer a mormon, he is still a moron.
|
|
Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
Posts: 3,710
Likes: 1,670
|
Post by Eλευθερί on Sept 19, 2018 3:33:24 GMT
It's always a good thing for both the institution and the individual for them to leave when they don;t believe or agree with their policies. What if the institution claims to be headed by Jesus Christ, and those leaving still fervantly still believe in the teachings of Christ? One or the other group will still be fervently believing what they believe...in Hell, while the other will be in eternal bliss. |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Sept 19, 2018 3:40:40 GMT
Excommunication for apostasy makes sense. The undoing ritual part is odd. Perhaps if the ritual is seen as something God adds to, maybe they are of the view that it is completely taken away upon excommunication I assume that they state they involve God in that process as well.Just out of interest, how does the Morman Church ( or in fact any institution ) involve God in a process? |
|
|
|
Post by goz on Sept 19, 2018 3:43:18 GMT
Religion isn't about belief. Religion is about power and the desire to control the beliefs and actions of the congregation. I have come to notice that this is your customary reply when you have no other relevant reply let alone refutation or discussion points on an issue. |
|
|
|
Post by geode on Sept 19, 2018 6:23:51 GMT
Yes, but where is the apostasy? It would seem that Sam does not disagree with Mormon doctrine or theology, but a practice that is not in the Bible, or even other writings Mormons claim as scripture. He disagreed with the Mormon leadership. Should disagreeing with leaders be a cause for claiming heresy? ... Religion isn't about belief. Religion is about power and the desire to control the beliefs and actions of the congregation. In this case it does appear that it is in fact about power and imposing the will of the top leaders upon the general membership. |
|
|
|
Post by geode on Sept 19, 2018 6:38:19 GMT
Excommunication for apostasy makes sense. The undoing ritual part is odd. Perhaps if the ritual is seen as something God adds to, maybe they are of the view that it is completely taken away upon excommunication I assume that they state they involve God in that process as well.Just out of interest, how does the Morman Church ( or in fact any institution ) involve God in a process? I actually answered that yesterday, giving the Mormon standard explanation involving prayer. Here is the text of the official letter: HOUSTON TEXAS SOUTH STAKE September 12, 2018 Brother Young, This letter is to inform you of the decision of the disciplinary council that was held in your behalf on 09 September 2018 at the Houston Texas South Stake Center. We have carefully and prayerfully reviewed this matter in order to reach a decision on what action to take. It is the decision of the council that you be excommunicated for conduct contrary to the laws and order of the Church. This means that you are no longer a member of the Church and do not enjoy any privileges of Church membership. You may not hold a temple recommend, wear temple garments, pay tithes and offerings, or exercise the priesthood in any way. We welcome you to attend public Church meetings, if your conduct is orderly, but you may not serve in a Church position, speak or offer a public prayer in Church meetings, partake of the sacrament or participate in the sustaining of Church officers. This action was not taken because of your opinion or position on protecting children. The Church has a strong desire to protect children and, as you know, issued updated guidelines for interviewing youth earlier this year. Teaching standards of morality to youth and helping them follow those standards–including in interviews with priesthood leaders–is an important responsibility of parents and of the Church. The issue is not that you have concerns–or even that you disagree with the Church’s guidelines, rather it is your persistent, aggressive effort to persuade others to your point of view by repeatedly and deliberately attacking and publicly opposing the Church and its leaders. You are entitled to your opinion or position, but you cannot remain a member in good standing while attacking the Church and its leaders and trying to get others to follow you. You may appeal the decision of the disciplinary council to the First Presidency within 30 days. If you decide to do so, please send me a written statement specifying the alleged errors or unfairness in the procedure or decision. I will then forward your statement to the First Presidency. Excommunication almost always lasts at least one year. In order to be readmitted to membership in the Church, you will need to demonstrate that you have stopped actions that undermine the Church and its leaders. Please understand that this decision is an invitation for you to repent and return. The Savior loves you. We love you and your family. We invite you to return to God’s covenant path and enjoy the fullness of the blessings he has in store for you and your family. With your consent, your Bishop and Stake President will continue to assist you in that process. With Love, xxxxx x. xxxxxx Stake President, Houston Texas South Stake |
|
