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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 19, 2018 12:49:10 GMT
Wow they won’t even take money from the dude.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Sept 19, 2018 16:03:28 GMT
Religion isn't about belief. Religion is about power and the desire to control the beliefs and actions of the congregation. lol I wasn't trying to be funny. The fact that you believe it to be funny is puzzling. CB-90
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 19, 2018 17:33:11 GMT
I wasn't trying to be funny. The fact that you believe it to be funny is puzzling. CB-90 Because it was funny. No one is being forced to accept the teaching and thus there is literally no control.
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Post by goz on Sept 19, 2018 22:11:13 GMT
I wasn't trying to be funny. The fact that you believe it to be funny is puzzling. CB-90 Because it was funny. No one is being forced to accept the teaching and thus there is literally no control. RU serious? This whole issue is about power and control. You read the excommunication letter. It was 'shape up or ship out' to what we demand in the church with lip service to 'God' in the praying and stuff! They did not come out and say it is God's will, they said it was to stop power and control being taken from the church's laws NOT the laws of God. They have in this case literally 'interpreted' THEIR version of the ruls of God and speak for him in a very presumptuous way.
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Post by geode on Sept 20, 2018 11:09:26 GMT
I wasn't trying to be funny. The fact that you believe it to be funny is puzzling. CB-90 Because it was funny. No one is being forced to accept the teaching and thus there is literally no control. Sam Young was born into a Mormon family. So was I. This came with expectations. My attending church meetings was not really optional when I was a kid, it was similar to other things my parents told me to do. I remember one Sunday when I was about 16 my friend Dave invited me to go bowling. I told my mother I was going with him. She said, "No you are not, you are going to church." I was basically told when I could start dating, who I could date, etc. by the church. I was told what I could and couldn't drink. As an adult I was rather typical, I was largely still part of a Mormon community. There was a lot of pressure about what to believe and what to do. This was definitely control, and it is ingrained and difficult to resist.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 20, 2018 11:13:16 GMT
Because it was funny. No one is being forced to accept the teaching and thus there is literally no control. Sam Young was born into a Mormon family. So was I. This came with expectations. My attending church meetings was not really optional when I was a kid, it was similar to other things my parents told me to do. I remember one Sunday when I was about 16 my friend Dave invited me to go bowling. I told my mother I was going with him. She said, "No you are not, you are going to church." I was basically told when I could start dating, who I could date, etc. by the church. I was told what I could and couldn't drink. As an adult I was rather typical, I was largely still part of a Mormon community. There was a lot of pressure about what to believe and what to do. This was definitely control, and it is ingrained and difficult to resist. Yes, being a part of a religion does come with expectations and guidelines to follow which is not the same as being obligated to stay. You were a kid, your parents loved you, and thus they raised you the way they felt best which is exactly how parents are supposed to behave. If your parents decided they didn;t want to be Mormons, they could leave. If the kid runs the family, that family sucks. However, now that you are an adult, you have the ability to make your own choices. One of those choices was deciding whether or not to accept the teachings of the Mormon Church which is something I assume you decided your didn;t want. Literally no control.
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Post by geode on Sept 20, 2018 11:33:49 GMT
Sam Young was born into a Mormon family. So was I. This came with expectations. My attending church meetings was not really optional when I was a kid, it was similar to other things my parents told me to do. I remember one Sunday when I was about 16 my friend Dave invited me to go bowling. I told my mother I was going with him. She said, "No you are not, you are going to church." I was basically told when I could start dating, who I could date, etc. by the church. I was told what I could and couldn't drink. As an adult I was rather typical, I was largely still part of a Mormon community. There was a lot of pressure about what to believe and what to do. This was definitely control, and it is ingrained and difficult to resist. Yes, being a part of a religion does come with expectations and guidelines to follow which is not the same as being obligated to stay. You were a kid, your parents loved you, and thus they raised you the way they felt best which is exactly how parents are supposed to behave. If your parents decided they didn;t want to be Mormons, they could leave. If the kid runs the family, that family sucks. However, now that you are an adult, you have the ability to make your own choices. One of those choices was deciding whether or not to accept the teachings of the Mormon Church which is something I assume you decided your didn;t want. Literally no control. When I was 36 years old I had ceased going to Mormon services and was worshipping with a Presbyterian congregation. In some ways they were like the Mormons, to officially join them one had to go through a series of Sunday School lessons to learn what they believed. I did so and one week we were interviewed by an elder to determine if we had the essential required beliefs. I passed but selected not to become a member. I had told my mother about the opportunity and she started crying. She said she could explain an inactive son to her friends but not an excommunicated one. Back then it a Mormon was excommunicated for joining another church. She said her friends would all assume that I was involved in grave sins. She was correct, so I just let it pass and attended as a non-member. Sam Young cried when he read his letter of excommunication. It was still a wrenching experience. You are ignoring the immense amount of mind control involved. According to the church their action against him will result in his being separated from his family in eternity. So even if a member leaves it affects their families.
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Post by geode on Sept 20, 2018 19:24:03 GMT
Rational Faiths"And yet… it still makes me uncomfortable that the modern LDS method of dealing with internal dissent has such strong parallels with global authoritarian regimes. At the very least, I would think that this should give us pause and prompt some deep self-reflection. Do we really want the Chinese Communist Party and the North Korean regime to be our neighbors in organizational behavior when it comes to dealing with internal rabble-rousers and critics? When it happens in China and North Korea, we in liberal democracies say it’s because its leaders fear losing control and so they respond by cracking down on dissent among its citizens. How likely is it that LDS policies on dealing with public dissidents is not similarly motivated to some extent by fear and anxiety of losing control, given that imperfect humans are at the helm and basic human social psychology is at work in all humans and human organizations? Do we ordinarily consider fear and anxiety to be praiseworthy motivations for decision-making? Does that represent our best selves? This is all the more troubling when one considers the doctrinal implications of excommunication in the LDS Church. For orthodox Latter-day Saints, excommunication literally means eternal banishment from the presence of God, one’s eternal companion, and forever family, if one does not repent and submit to the institutional hierarchy. Is that really the type of God we believe in? One who would forever banish from Their presence someone who is sincerely, yet imperfectly, advocating for justice and progress in communities that they deeply care about? Is that really the type of God that we want to believe in?"
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Post by Isapop on Sept 20, 2018 19:47:48 GMT
Yes, being a part of a religion does come with expectations and guidelines to follow which is not the same as being obligated to stay. You were a kid, your parents loved you, and thus they raised you the way they felt best which is exactly how parents are supposed to behave. If your parents decided they didn;t want to be Mormons, they could leave. If the kid runs the family, that family sucks. However, now that you are an adult, you have the ability to make your own choices. One of those choices was deciding whether or not to accept the teachings of the Mormon Church which is something I assume you decided your didn;t want. Literally no control. It was still a wrenching experience. You are ignoring the immense amount of mind control involved. According to the church their action against him will result in his being separated from his family in eternity. So even if a member leaves it affects their families. The term "mind control" conjures up images of hypnotism and "Manchurian Candidate" type situations, and that makes it easy to casually deny the kind of effects you're talking about. Instead of "mind control", I think saying "psychological pressure" would be closer to the mark, and much less easily dismissed.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Sept 20, 2018 19:58:29 GMT
Yes, being a part of a religion does come with expectations and guidelines to follow which is not the same as being obligated to stay. ... Guidelines??? How's this for "guidelines". A fellow walks up to you and puts a gun to your head. His guidelines are, " Give me all your money or I'll blow your head off." Are you exercising "free will" when you hand over your wallet?". To a slightly lesser extent, it's the same thing with some cults that call themselves a religion: You (the lowlife), tow the party line or we (the church) will make your life and/or the lives of your loved ones a living hell. We will forbid them from talking to you, or attending your wedding. In other words, whether they (the family) like it or not, the "guidelines" require the family to intimidate you into obedience. To put it in layman's terms: Once you've been brainwashed, we baptize you. Once you're baptized, you're f***ed. There's no turning back.
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Post by geode on Sept 20, 2018 20:03:28 GMT
It was still a wrenching experience. You are ignoring the immense amount of mind control involved. According to the church their action against him will result in his being separated from his family in eternity. So even if a member leaves it affects their families. The term "mind control" conjures up images of hypnotism and "Manchurian Candidate" type situations, and that makes it easy to casually deny the kind of effects you're talking about. Instead of "mind control", I think saying "psychological pressure" would be closer to the mark, and much less easily dismissed.
Those are extreme forms of mind control, but I think the term generally conjures up various forms of "brainwashing" whether subtle or dramatic. I think the term "psychological pressure" is too vague and not really defined or used to describe organizations exhibiting cult-like behaviors.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 21, 2018 10:59:31 GMT
Yes, being a part of a religion does come with expectations and guidelines to follow which is not the same as being obligated to stay. You were a kid, your parents loved you, and thus they raised you the way they felt best which is exactly how parents are supposed to behave. If your parents decided they didn;t want to be Mormons, they could leave. If the kid runs the family, that family sucks. However, now that you are an adult, you have the ability to make your own choices. One of those choices was deciding whether or not to accept the teachings of the Mormon Church which is something I assume you decided your didn;t want. Literally no control. When I was 36 years old I had ceased going to Mormon services and was worshipping with a Presbyterian congregation. In some ways they were like the Mormons, to officially join them one had to go through a series of Sunday School lessons to learn what they believed. I did so and one week we were interviewed by an elder to determine if we had the essential required beliefs. I passed but selected not to become a member. I had told my mother about the opportunity and she started crying. She said she could explain an inactive son to her friends but not an excommunicated one. Back then it a Mormon was excommunicated for joining another church. She said her friends would all assume that I was involved in grave sins. She was correct, so I just let it pass and attended as a non-member. Sam Young cried when he read his letter of excommunication. It was still a wrenching experience. You are ignoring the immense amount of mind control involved. According to the church their action against him will result in his being separated from his family in eternity. So even if a member leaves it affects their families. I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying it isn't there. What you and others experience is simply grief at losing something familiar to you even if you can't abide it. It's similar to divorce. That has nothing to do with mind control and more to do with realizing that you've lost in some way or another a relationship that would never be the same anyway based on your decisions which you were perfectly free to make. You had no special mental mightiness, you just had a stronger dislike for the teachings than your family did. YOU, not the teaching, is what separates the family. Both you and your family find your integrity to your own views/beliefs to be more important than the family tie which is exactly what Scripture said would happen.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 21, 2018 11:04:18 GMT
Yes, being a part of a religion does come with expectations and guidelines to follow which is not the same as being obligated to stay. ... Guidelines??? How's this for "guidelines". A fellow walks up to you and puts a gun to your head. His guidelines are, " Give me all your money or I'll blow your head off." Are you exercising "free will" when you hand over your wallet?". To a slightly lesser extent, it's the same thing with some cults that call themselves a religion: You (the lowlife), tow the party line or we (the church) will make your life and/or the lives of your loved ones a living hell. We will forbid them from talking to you, or attending your wedding. In other words, whether they (the family) like it or not, the "guidelines" require the family to intimidate you into obedience. To put it in layman's terms: Once you've been brainwashed, we baptize you. Once you're baptized, you're f***ed. There's no turning back. lol at the notion the analogy is even remotely similar.
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Post by geode on Sept 21, 2018 11:48:59 GMT
When I was 36 years old I had ceased going to Mormon services and was worshipping with a Presbyterian congregation. In some ways they were like the Mormons, to officially join them one had to go through a series of Sunday School lessons to learn what they believed. I did so and one week we were interviewed by an elder to determine if we had the essential required beliefs. I passed but selected not to become a member. I had told my mother about the opportunity and she started crying. She said she could explain an inactive son to her friends but not an excommunicated one. Back then it a Mormon was excommunicated for joining another church. She said her friends would all assume that I was involved in grave sins. She was correct, so I just let it pass and attended as a non-member. Sam Young cried when he read his letter of excommunication. It was still a wrenching experience. You are ignoring the immense amount of mind control involved. According to the church their action against him will result in his being separated from his family in eternity. So even if a member leaves it affects their families. I'm not ignoring it. I'm saying it isn't there. What you and others experience is simply grief at losing something familiar to you even if you can't abide it. It's similar to divorce. That has nothing to do with mind control and more to do with realizing that you've lost in some way or another a relationship that would never be the same anyway based on your decisions which you were perfectly free to make. You had no special mental mightiness, you just had a stronger dislike for the teachings than your family did. YOU, not the teaching, is what separates the family. Both you and your family find your integrity to your own views/beliefs to be more important than the family tie which is exactly what Scripture said would happen. Yes, there are aspects of a greiving process involved, but there is also rather pervasive mind control as well. The two are not mutually exclusive. Look up the Stockholm Syndrome. Actually my mother had more of a problem with the teachings than I did. At that time it was the culture that caused me to leave, being judged for what I was. On the other hand she was a "Cultural Mormon" who stayed in for the culture. No, the family tie was more important to me so I didn't formally separate from the church. I guess you would have to experience this thing to know what it is about. I have and apparently you have not.
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Post by geode on Sept 21, 2018 11:52:40 GMT
Guidelines??? How's this for "guidelines". A fellow walks up to you and puts a gun to your head. His guidelines are, " Give me all your money or I'll blow your head off." Are you exercising "free will" when you hand over your wallet?". To a slightly lesser extent, it's the same thing with some cults that call themselves a religion: You (the lowlife), tow the party line or we (the church) will make your life and/or the lives of your loved ones a living hell. We will forbid them from talking to you, or attending your wedding. In other words, whether they (the family) like it or not, the "guidelines" require the family to intimidate you into obedience. To put it in layman's terms: Once you've been brainwashed, we baptize you. Once you're baptized, you're f***ed. There's no turning back. lol at the notion the analogy is even remotely similar. But this part: "To a slightly lesser extent, it's the same thing with some cults that call themselves a religion: You (the lowlife), tow the party line or we (the church) will make your life and/or the lives of your loved ones a living hell. We will forbid them from talking to you, or attending your wedding. In other words, whether they (the family) like it or not, the "guidelines" require the family to intimidate you into obedience." ..is pretty much the case.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Sept 24, 2018 21:44:40 GMT
When I found church boring, I simply stopped going. There were no repercussions. My family still talked to me. They came to my wedding. They invited me to their 50th anniversary party. The only thing was that after a year, the church stopped asking me for donations. It was the same thing when I bought a Honda instead of the Fords I'd been buying for 28 years: NO REPERCUSSIONS other than sales flyers from the Ford dealer.
Cults like JW & LDS browbeat/shame/intimidate you into staying. And if you stay, you MUST tow the party line. It's just like Edie McClurg said to Steve Martin in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, "You're f***ed"
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 24, 2018 22:34:22 GMT
When I found church boring, I simply stopped going. There were no repercussions. My family still talked to me. They came to my wedding. They invited me to their 50th anniversary party. The only thing was that after a year, the church stopped asking me for donations. It was the same thing when I bought a Honda instead of the Fords I'd been buying for 28 years: NO REPERCUSSIONS other than sales flyers from the Ford dealer. Cults like JW & LDS browbeat/shame/intimidate you into staying. And if you stay, you MUST tow the party line. It's just like Edie McClurg said to Steve Martin in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, "You're f***ed" Lol
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Post by goz on Sept 24, 2018 22:40:04 GMT
When I found church boring, I simply stopped going. There were no repercussions. My family still talked to me. They came to my wedding. They invited me to their 50th anniversary party. The only thing was that after a year, the church stopped asking me for donations. It was the same thing when I bought a Honda instead of the Fords I'd been buying for 28 years: NO REPERCUSSIONS other than sales flyers from the Ford dealer. Cults like JW & LDS browbeat/shame/intimidate you into staying. And if you stay, you MUST tow the party line. It's just like Edie McClurg said to Steve Martin in Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, "You're f***ed" Lol CoolGJS translation: Lol = mild giggle at preposterous notion LOL = faux derisive laughter meaning 'I got nothing' - no answer to the points raised against my illogical beliefs
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Post by Rodney Farber on Sept 25, 2018 11:43:27 GMT
Jesus saves. Jesus forgives your sins. However, the LDS and JW do not follow that doctrine: Either tow the party line or skedaddle (and we will make your life a living hell as best we can). ... I think this adds to the PR disaster for the church, ... How can anything add to the LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre?
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Post by geode on Sept 26, 2018 6:33:10 GMT
Jesus saves. Jesus forgives your sins. However, the LDS and JW do not follow that doctrine: Either tow the party line or skedaddle (and we will make your life a living hell as best we can). ... I think this adds to the PR disaster for the church, ... How can anything add to the LDS Mountain Meadows Massacre? I said that it adds to the PR disaster not that it exceeds any individual PR disaster event. But that raises a question, in the history of the LDS church what was the biggest PR disaster? I just listened to an interview from a leader in the Community of Christ in the UK. He said the Mormon conversion rate in the British Isles in the early 19th Century was something like 8,000 a year until it was made known in the church's own publication that polygamy was being practised in America. The rate dropped to a few hundred a year. Follow up article: CNN article
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