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Post by Aj_June on Oct 11, 2018 16:09:11 GMT
If you go through the books it is indicated in various chapters the common people were fed of both sides. While more emphasis is given on Lannister and evils deeds of the Mountain, even the northerners were not being completely right. While I don't remember any particular northern Lord being described at length I think Bolton was being a horrible Lord even before he allied with the Lannisters. Also, the outlaw band led by Beric Dondarrion was doing ghastly acts (Brotherhood Without Banners).
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 11, 2018 16:39:26 GMT
I don't recall the Brotherhood doing things. There was a scene with prisoners in cages at one point when they were taking Arya somewhere.
The show makes it very clear that damage comes from both sides. It starts with Robb sacrificing 2000 of his own men just to free his relatives, of course, then goes on with the battlefield scene in which he meets Talisa. Then there are the three hanged women who "lay with lions" in S2E10.
When the Brotherhood finally appears in S3, Thoros clearly states "The lords of Westeros want to burn the countryside. We're trying to save it".
This is the actual theme of the story. It shows the cost of the struggle for power, regardless of its motives. Ned Stark's stupid honour, Robb's pride and anger, Renly's ambition, Stannis' beliefs or Daenerys' entitlement are all the same when it comes to the blood and destruction they cost.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Oct 11, 2018 22:02:47 GMT
Oh, definitely. Like with any broad group of people, there will always be more barbaric people and others who operate by some "code" - whether that be ethics, morals, customs, etc. If GOT has taught us anything, it's that no one is completely "evil" or "good". People have their reasons/viewpoints for why they choose their way of doing things. i.e. Roose Bolton says the reason he turned on Robb is because, "He ignored my advice at every turn. If he had been a trifle less arrogant..."
In terms of the Northerners, yes. They're are definitely a lot who did "wrong". For instance this scene with Brienne vs. Stark men:
They're uncouth, sloppy, and rather cruel (exclaiming with pride "Two of them we did."), which is quite different than other Northerners we witness. Those aren't the only ones either.
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Seto
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Post by Seto on Oct 12, 2018 1:55:36 GMT
I would disagree, to an extent.
From memory it was only the Karstark forces that raided the Riverlands after they left Robb's army. Roose Bolton was purposefully killing off Northern forces by sending them to un-winnable situations, but he never attacked the small folk.
It is a little mysterious that the Brotherhood without Banners don't fight for Robb, and seem to have a bad opinion on Northerners in general. Which is probably where the rumours of Stark attacks came from. That, and the Karstark raiders could have been mistaken for Stark men. The Brotherhood themselves never attack the smallfolk though. They only punish those they perceive as criminals. This is stepped up when Lady Stoneheart takes command of them.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 12, 2018 4:57:28 GMT
The main point here is that the man who starts a war that could have been avoided bears the responsibility for letting savagery loose on all sides. These men are Ned and Robb Stark. The former refused all openings (Cersei's visit in S1E04) and peaceful options (Littlefinger in S1E07, then Cersei again - "Bend the knee and we shall let you leave"), the latter called all his friends and went to start bloody slaughter down south, never giving a single thought to negotiation.
The Starks are life despising arseholes.
"I learned to die long ago" - Ned Stark, S1E09
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Post by Aj_June on Oct 13, 2018 8:18:10 GMT
I would disagree, to an extent. From memory it was only the Karstark forces that raided the Riverlands after they left Robb's army. Roose Bolton was purposefully killing off Northern forces by sending them to un-winnable situations, but he never attacked the small folk. It is a little mysterious that the Brotherhood without Banners don't fight for Robb, and seem to have a bad opinion on Northerners in general. Which is probably where the rumours of Stark attacks came from. That, and the Karstark raiders could have been mistaken for Stark men. The Brotherhood themselves never attack the smallfolk though. They only punish those they perceive as criminals. This is stepped up when Lady Stoneheart takes command of them. I admit that I may be wrong. Let me explain how I started this topic. It's just based on faint memories from reading book 1-3. I remember there were instances involving scenes where someone would enter a village or an obscure area/interiors and Martin would delve on common people. If my memory is correct there are instances where common people would describe their problems and how they have nothing to do with both sides and how both sides bring them woe and nothing else. As for brotherhood, it is not that management of brotherhood wanted to make life of common people a hell. It is the lower elements within them that started behaving in a way that came as too righteous. Ultimately, Brotherhood was an outlaw group and there was a lack of principal in their conduct. Even if their intention was good, the end result wasn't always good.
That said I realise that I have not presented any evidence from books pertaining to my claims. Next time I read instances that made me feel that way I will try to post the exact quotes here.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Oct 13, 2018 18:04:50 GMT
If you go through the books it is indicated in various chapters the common people were fed of both sides. While more emphasis is given on Lannister and evils deeds of the Mountain, even the northerners were not being completely right. While I don't remember any particular northern Lord being described at length I think Bolton was being a horrible Lord even before he allied with the Lannisters. Also, the outlaw band led by Beric Dondarrion was doing ghastly acts (Brotherhood Without Banners).
In both the book and the show, both sides commit horrible deeds, During Jaime & big girls trek, they had to kill some Northerners who had killed some common folk. Also, Arya was a prisoner in the books of Bolton and it appeared the prisoners were treated as badly under him. Not to mention House Bolton destroyed Winterfell including most of the inhabitants in both the book and the show. So yes Northerners had the ability to suck. This is not even including their more dishonorable actions which were numerous as well. |
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Post by Aj_June on Oct 13, 2018 18:11:14 GMT
If you go through the books it is indicated in various chapters the common people were fed of both sides. While more emphasis is given on Lannister and evils deeds of the Mountain, even the northerners were not being completely right. While I don't remember any particular northern Lord being described at length I think Bolton was being a horrible Lord even before he allied with the Lannisters. Also, the outlaw band led by Beric Dondarrion was doing ghastly acts (Brotherhood Without Banners).
In both the book and the show, both sides commit horrible deeds, During Jaime & big girls trek, they had to kill some Northerners who had killed some common folk. Also, Arya was a prisoner in the books of Bolton and it appeared the prisoners were treated as badly under him. Not to mention House Bolton destroyed Winterfell including most of the inhabitants in both the book and the show. So yes Northerners had the ability to suck. This is not even including their more dishonorable actions which were numerous as well. I especially agree regarding treatment of prisoners at Harrenhal. Boltons were being inhuman but even other Lord's were aware of that. |
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Oct 13, 2018 23:51:18 GMT
I think GRMM Made a point to show all of the major families or regions can be cruel killers murdereds yes northern lords can be cruel too a lot of you mentioned roose Bolton and he was worse of the worse really gross individual traitor and his son a complete pyscho also the kardstarks and that other the Umbers? They all betrayed Jon didn't want to fight against Ramsey so yeah bad apples everywhere.
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