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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 12, 2018 8:01:03 GMT
While characters can be quickly liked or disliked, they are mostly floating within an acceptance zone. Liked characters have their flaws and the disliked have their own point that makes them at least tolerable. Some move out of that zone and become either rejected villains or loved ones. Some fall back from these extremes, redeem themselves or disappoint.
What events made you change your appreciation of characters? When did they cross a line, for good or ill?
I was fairly neutral on Ned Stark for the first episodes but I became disappointed in his resigning in S1E05 and he turned into a problem making fool when he summoned Tywin to court in terms anyone could see were not acceptable. That scene of Ned making a mess from the Iron Throne put him into the villain category for me.
Daenerys took a lot longer. She had taken a villain's role in S1E07 when she approved of Drogo's invasion plans but she showed signs of tempering for quite a while. She was young, inexperienced and learning. Her random crucifixion of masters in S4E04 crossed the line. It was a pure intimidation measure, something Tywin could have done, but that's also what he would have called it, conscious of its extreme nature. She called it "justice" and that was final damnation for that character. Whatever learning attempts came after this were bound to fail, which was confirmed in her coldly planned slaughtering of the Khals in S6E04.
I liked Tyrion for a long time. He fell from that at his trial then went to full villain when he killed his father without a need.
I'm not sure when I started to love Cersei. I liked her from the start but she could have stayed there. Was it the scene with Jaime in S1E03, the conversation with Robert in S1E05? Was it the "you win or you die" speech? I cannot tell. Appreciation is a gradual process, disappointment an abrupt one. I know it was the first time I ever looked up an actress on IMDb after watching Season 1. I wanted to know more and found out, a little surprised, that I had seen her in 300, a few years before. I had not recognised her.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 12, 2018 8:38:30 GMT
I loved the adult Myrcella too, at first sight, all of her. I thought it a little strange, I don't like girls that young. I put part of it on the importance she had for my favourite characters, until I saw this:
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Post by Aj_June on Oct 12, 2018 10:00:03 GMT
He finally gained my respect. S7E07
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Oct 12, 2018 13:03:26 GMT
Ned - lying to everyone to keep his dead sister's promise. He's despicable Stannis - killing his kid. However, I would argue I never thought much of him since he killed his brother in a sleazy way Lyanna - Falling for Rhaegar at the expense of thousands of lives Sansa - For the good, her coming to realize the princess story is phony at Ned's death Jaime - For the good, The Bear & the Maiden episode
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Oct 14, 2018 0:06:11 GMT
I didn't start out liking Sansa right away she did annoy me sometimes but I quickly realized she was smarter most of them and the way she survived at KL was masterful Sansa knows how to mask Feelings and manipulate when she had too
Jamie once his hand got cut off and showed a more humane side I started liking him a lot Jamie has a good heart and was too stubborn to show he does I think cersei does too but I think she has been bullied by her father in marriage , lost her mother due to Tyrions birth she holds grudges like that but like Jamie I think she has a heart and lost a lot I feel conclicted about cersei and the things she does but in a strange way I can understand her
However when it comes to Dany I don't understand her I stopped getting her a while back A lot of you mentioned some things she did in later seasons I can already see she's no different in her way of ruling Than others she wants to defeat also she is more dangerous because she has three large dragons she uses to burn anything She doesn't like Dany lost me when she started burning people or when she gave final say killing the young man in essos was that seaosn 4 or 5 And he was begging her not to..that scene was sad to me l because I felt Dany was no longer the princess I adored in early seasons She changed and I don't think for better In season 7 it was worse
Used to hate theon , well now he is almost heroic help Sansa escape , fighting to go help his sister I was rooting for him
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 14, 2018 0:23:05 GMT
I think cersei does too but I think she has been bullied by her father in marriage , She wasn't. "Hated him? l worshipped him. Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when l finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life." It didn't turn out as she expected, though. She never truly resented her father, always wanted to be his daughter, his true heir.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 14, 2018 7:18:25 GMT
The game of appreciation is manifold. I try to differentiate a character's purpose from their personality. This is how I could never dislike Robb Stark in spite of wishing him to fail, or at least stop, and why I always wished for Joffrey's side to stay in power no matter how abject he got. I never mourned Joffrey's death but Cersei's reaction was unbearable. Then there is the reception of characters. I have more disgust for Daenerys fans than dislike for the character.
I never accepted Stannis. His coming against the accepted king was bad enough but doing this together with a foreign cult made it worse. That's for the purpose. His personality was that of a warrior, ready to sacrifice many in battle, and in this he was no different from many others. He had the good sense of seeking Davos' advice, making him a reasonable ruler but this all came to nothing when he burned his brother in law in S4E02. This man was ready to sacrifice his own and radiated the same self-despite and neglect for life as Ned Stark, only taken to another level. He was another one of those who spend without counting for the sake of principles. Their fans are not my friends.
I never really disliked Sansa. Yes, she was a brat to the Septa and too naively hopeful in S1 but that's all. Her character was not smart once in survival mode. She just ducked and let everything happen to stay out of trouble. This is basic instinct, not intelligence. She only refused Littlefinger's offer to leave because she was dreamng of marrying Loras. I started to feel for her in the snow scene in the Vale, in S4E07. It was the first time and she had earned it by acting as an adult with Littlefinger on the ship, asking pertinent questions. It was all confirmed when she started "playing" herself at Littlefinger's hearing in the Vale. She kept growing from there. Now she needs to make an alliance with Cersei.
Jaime is one of those I like in spite of their shortcomings, and of course for what they mean to others. I never needed the bathtub monologue but he kept falling out for other things. His weakness in front of public opinion is a stain. He never understood what Ned Stark thought of him, only fantasised his own fear into it. Then there are his expectations from Cersei. He comes back to see her promised to marriage and exile, but all he seemingly thinks about is getting back into bed. I don't blame him for freeing his innocent brother, he couldn't know what that wretch would do. He redeemed himself, though. His scene with Cersei in S6E01 is an example of the Jaime I could love. "We'll take everything back and more", there's my lion. Why did he have to leave?
I stayed neutral about Theon until he got home. There, his pitiful reaction to his father's logical demands abolished all chances of my ever respecting him: "You gave me away like I was some dog you didn't want anymore. And now you curse me because I've come home." What a fool! He could have refused to break his word, argued about his role, but that was just too weak. Then he took Winterfell and went down the deep end. I've wanted him flushed ever since.
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Post by bluerisk on Oct 14, 2018 11:54:37 GMT
While characters can be quickly liked or disliked, they are mostly floating within an acceptance zone. Liked characters have their flaws and the disliked have their own point that makes them at least tolerable. Some move out of that zone and become either rejected villains or loved ones. Some fall back from these extremes, redeem themselves or disappoint. What events made you change your appreciation of characters? When did they cross a line, for good or ill?I was fairly neutral on Ned Stark for the first episodes but I became disappointed in his resigning in S1E05 and he turned into a problem making fool when he summoned Tywin to court in terms anyone could see were not acceptable. That scene of Ned making a mess from the Iron Throne put him into the villain category for me. Daenerys took a lot longer. She had taken a villain's role in S1E07 when she approved of Drogo's invasion plans but she showed signs of tempering for quite a while. She was young, inexperienced and learning. Her random crucifixion of masters in S4E04 crossed the line. It was a pure intimidation measure, something Tywin could have done, but that's also what he would have called it, conscious of its extreme nature. She called it "justice" and that was final damnation for that character. Whatever learning attempts came after this were bound to fail, which was confirmed in her coldly planned slaughtering of the Khals in S6E04. I liked Tyrion for a long time. He fell from that at his trial then went to full villain when he killed his father without a need.I'm not sure when I started to love Cersei. I liked her from the start but she could have stayed there. Was it the scene with Jaime in S1E03, the conversation with Robert in S1E05? Was it the "you win or you die" speech? I cannot tell. Appreciation is a gradual process, disappointment an abrupt one. I know it was the first time I ever looked up an actress on IMDb after watching Season 1. I wanted to know more and found out, a little surprised, that I had seen her in 300, a few years before. I had not recognised her. Not with need but with just cause. And after all, he had to kill him since otherwise his father had alerted the guards...so there was even a need.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 14, 2018 12:20:19 GMT
I liked Tyrion for a long time. He fell from that at his trial then went to full villain when he killed his father without a need.Not with need but with just cause. And after all, he had to kill him since otherwise his father had alerted the guards...so there was even a need. Tyrion didn't have to go up there in the first place and he didn't go to have a chat before he left. He knew what he was doing all along.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Oct 18, 2018 2:05:59 GMT
I think cersei does too but I think she has been bullied by her father in marriage , She wasn't. "Hated him? l worshipped him. Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when l finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life." It didn't turn out as she expected, though. She never truly resented her father, always wanted to be his daughter, his true heir. yes she did but he wanted her to marry the tyrell guy Loras who was gay and her father knew about it and didnt care, cersei and her father had a very complicated relationship ,i agree with you she did admire him but she also hated him i think , maybe not hare but disliked many decisions he made,im glad she told him about her and jamie and he didnt want to hear it or believe it .
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 18, 2018 6:47:53 GMT
yes she did but he wanted her to marry the tyrell guy Loras who was gay and her father knew about it and didnt care, cersei and her father had a very complicated relationship ,i agree with you she did admire him but she also hated him i think , maybe not hare but disliked many decisions he made,im glad she told him about her and jamie and he didnt want to hear it or believe it . There was never any hate from Cersei towards Tywin. She disliked the decision he made to marry her again, that's right, and she fought against it but even that scene speaks of the love she had for him. Look at her when she says "I'll tell everyone the truth", then "yes, you do". She doesn't want this to be happening, storms off because it hurts. She never said a single word against him, as opposed to Tyrion. Cersei has a complicated relationship with her situation, not with her father. She knows he's right most of the time, she worships him. That blindness of him to his own children, that obsession with legacy is the one flaw in the man, the crack in the monument.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Oct 19, 2018 14:20:05 GMT
yes she did but he wanted her to marry the tyrell guy Loras who was gay and her father knew about it and didnt care, cersei and her father had a very complicated relationship ,i agree with you she did admire him but she also hated him i think , maybe not hare but disliked many decisions he made,im glad she told him about her and jamie and he didnt want to hear it or believe it . There was never any hate from Cersei towards Tywin. She disliked the decision he made to marry her again, that's right, and she fought against it but even that scene speaks of the love she had for him. Look at her when she says "I'll tell everyone the truth", then "yes, you do". She doesn't want this to be happening, storms off because it hurts. She never said a single word against him, as opposed to Tyrion. Cersei has a complicated relationship with her situation, not with her father. She knows he's right most of the time, she worships him. That blindness of him to his own children, that obsession with legacy is the one flaw in the man, the crack in the monument. i can see that but i would had more respect for him if he didnt turn out to be just like any other lord of that time who forced their daughters to marry someone they did not want to when i tell my friends who hate the lannisters i understand cersei they think im nuts but i do most of the hateful stuff cersei does or says its because she was hurt and acting out she lost her mother young dont know what her mother was like but is different for daughters to have mothers love
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Oct 20, 2018 4:41:18 GMT
i can see that but i would had more respect for him if he didnt turn out to be just like any other lord of that time who forced their daughters to marry someone they did not want to when i tell my friends who hate the lannisters i understand cersei they think im nuts but i do most of the hateful stuff cersei does or says its because she was hurt and acting out she lost her mother young dont know what her mother was like but is different for daughters to have mothers love This is what marriage was invented for. The Romans married as a way of regulating property and building long term networks. The whole concept of aristocracy is based on marriage, in which both parts held comparable stakes. This can be found all the way down to the middle ages in the life of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who held about a third of France when married to its king and took it with her when she ran to the king of England. Compare this to the customs of oriental scum who hold women as pleasure livestock and you'll see an essential difference. As much as GRRM the feminist leftard wants to moan about it (because leftards always moan about the cost of everything), marriage is what made women property holders in the western culture. The idea of marrying for love is just a plebeian romantic fantasy. Note, by the way, that Cersei's main concern in the matter was not marriage but the consequence of having to leave her children and possibly, although she never says so, her position. This latter point must remain a matter of debate because Cersei never took any actions in early seasons which could not be justified by the wish to be there for her sons. Up to S6, she can be seen as protecting Tommen from Margaery's partial influence, which we know she does not invent as Margaery is constantly shown manipulating the boy, then from the High Sparrow's. As such, she is a parallel to Queen Brunhilda, daughter of a Wisigoth king given in marriage to a Frankish king (Sigebert of Austrasia) and who would turn to be the actual ruler through her children and grandchildren after his death. Brunhilda is the stuff of legend, most likely the inspiration for Brünnhilde in the Nibelungenlied, and was made to marry her nephew for political reasons but the marriage was contested by the nephew's own father and king of Neustria, Chilperic. King Chilperic, Sigebert's brother and Brunhilda's brother in law, besieged and captured his own son, had him shorn and stuck in a monastery. The son later escaped, sought sanctuary in a church and is said to have committed suicide. Chilperic had taken a common woman as wife, another near legendary figure: Fredegund, who might have killed the former queen. After his death, she became Brunhilda's enemy. If a TV show were made of the history of the Merovingians, most people would think it crazy and overdone… I don't think Cersei does hateful things, by the way. She might say a few but always in reaction to some serious threat and she would never do half of what she threatens to. Jaime knows that while Tommen doesn't, which led to that little dialogue in S6E02: Jaime: Have we caught Prince Trystane's killers? Tommen: I expect it was Mother. Jaime: Your mother wouldn't do that. Tommen: Yes, she would. This exchange summarises public opinion of Cersei. Young, uninformed Tommen is the average viewer, judging her guilty without cause, while Jaime has the deeper insight and knows better. He knows she was the one to scold him for pushing Bran, who spoke against starting a war with Dorne in S5. Tommen will eventually condemn his mother.
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