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Post by Skaathar on Nov 9, 2018 21:54:40 GMT
Simply being overpowered does not make one a Mary Sue (or a Gary Stue). It's when you're overpowered WITHOUT making any sense that you end up becoming a Mary Sue. I mean, that's not the only indication of a Mary Sue but that's one of the easiest ones to spot. The definition of a Mary Sue (or Gary Stue) is simply a character in a story which the author created as a placeholder for themselves. The Mary Sue ends up becoming the author's ideal version of themselves, which usually ends up with the story universe contriving to bend itself around whatever the Mary Sue needs to happen, whether that means she gets the best powers, the best lovers, the most respect, etc. and usually done without her having to really work for it. A good way to understand this is to compare Wonder Woman with Rey. Both are strong female characters but only one falls into the Mary Sue stereotype. Both are shown to be skilled, competent fighters... but only Wonder Woman's skill makes sense. We're shown how she trained and gained her skill. In comparison, there's no logical explanation why Rey is so skilled. Both are able to speak and understand multiple languages but only Diana is given a reason as to why she knows multiple languages. Both acquire great powers, but only Diana has an explanation for said powers (demi god and all that). And to top it all off, Diana is not good at everything she does or she does not know everything. She's still ignorant and naive in a lot of things, she does not magically know how to fly a plane, etc. Rey is just seemingly capable of doing and knowing anything that's thrown her way. So there's the difference. People do not hate strong female characters (at least most people don't), it's poorly written strong female characters that make no sense that they hate. And it's not a misogynistic/sexist thing either. General audiences hate Gary Stues just as much. Why do you think Superman isn't as well loved as he was back in the 60's-80's? There's a reason people started liking flawed, edgy heroes. It's because no one likes perfectly boring Mary Sues and Gary Stues. I wouldn't have argued that Wonder Woman is one, but I wouldn't have thought Rey from Star Wars was either. She was pining for her parents before and I feel like she has emotions and conflict. Rey just sort of struck me as a natural. Maybe that's where the wish fulfillment part of the Mary Sue criticism comes from but to me she just looks like a normal, albeit above average girl. It is Star Wars after all. I don't know how anybody except for other androids understands R2D2 or BB8, or how anybody but other Wookies understands Chewy.
I get the objection, perfect character means less conflict. But the more examples of already discussed Mary and Gary Stus I find, the closer I come to think it's kind of an academic bullshit theory.
Do you agree that Bella from Twilight is a Mary Sue too? She came up as an example. I've never watched the movies so I have no idea myself.
Well no, just because you have emotions and conflicts doesn't negate you from being a Mary Sue. Rey showing emotions and going through some hardships does in no way explain how and why she was as good as she was. Her conflicts were very superficial, almost all of which she conquered by pure virtue of just being herself. Bella Swan is a great example of a Mary Sue. Yes, she's very emo and she does have a lot of conflict. That still didn't explain why all the hottest guys were falling for her without her doing anything special, how she went through a vampire transformation easier than anyone ever did, how she ended up being the strongest vampire around without any apparent reason, or how her supposedly conflicted love triangle ended up getting magically resolved (without any effort from her I might add) in the one of the worst love story solutions ever conceived (one of her boyfriends fell in love with her daughter instead). |
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Nov 9, 2018 22:05:53 GMT
This sort of mind set just adds to the problem. I mean, yes, there are plenty of pathetic males who feel this way. My uncle, who is a HUGE comic fan and sees EVERY movie from every studio wouldn't go see Wonder Woman because he's apparently that threatened by strong women... BUT writing these invulnerable Mary Sue types only hurts the chances of having equality in the film industry. It is, in itself, sexism in a different way. Why does Rey have to be so perfect? It's because the hack filmmakers are too self aware that they're writing for a female. How about just writing a good character that happens to be a woman? That's what I hope Marvel did with Captain Marvel. lol, is that the uncle who is married to that super-religious aunt who freaks out when mentioning that Easrer and Christmas are based on pagan tradition? Rey is an example of exceptional writing incompetence - she happened bc JJ is a hack writer, Kennedy pushed that the female lead must be awesome in every scene and may not be overshadowed by males, and Kasdan just did not care and was too lazy to look up Mary Sue writing. Also, nobody dared to say something, not even Carry "the script doctor" Fisher who could have said: wait, I am hugging the smelly stranger-girl who just maimed my beloved son so to mourn for dead Han - and ignore Chewie and my returning pilot, wtf...? Furiosa and Wonder Woman got the strong female lead right however. That's debatable with Wonder Woman. Sure she was naive about humanity and she's gotta overcome that. That was a good start of character development, but was squandered with the CGI-fest fight with Ares. But overall though, you didn't even feel a hint of danger for her. And to top it off, much like Rey all of a sudden is able to use mind control, Wonder Woman seems to pull a random power out of her ass after she declares love is the answer to humanity and defeats Ares like nothing. |
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 9, 2018 23:20:20 GMT
lol, is that the uncle who is married to that super-religious aunt who freaks out when mentioning that Easrer and Christmas are based on pagan tradition? Rey is an example of exceptional writing incompetence - she happened bc JJ is a hack writer, Kennedy pushed that the female lead must be awesome in every scene and may not be overshadowed by males, and Kasdan just did not care and was too lazy to look up Mary Sue writing. Also, nobody dared to say something, not even Carry "the script doctor" Fisher who could have said: wait, I am hugging the smelly stranger-girl who just maimed my beloved son so to mourn for dead Han - and ignore Chewie and my returning pilot, wtf...? Furiosa and Wonder Woman got the strong female lead right however. That's debatable with Wonder Woman. Sure she was naive about humanity and she's gotta overcome that. That was a good start of character development, but was squandered with the CGI-fest fight with Ares. But overall though, you didn't even feel a hint of danger for her. And to top it off, much like Rey all of a sudden is able to use mind control, Wonder Woman seems to pull a random power out of her ass after she declares love is the answer to humanity and defeats Ares like nothing. if you arguing that WW is written as a MS, NO it's not debatable. You just do not understand the writing trope. First familiarize yourself with the writing concept, as defined on writers' sites like the famous Springhole: springhole.net/writing/whatisamarysue.htmspringhole.net/writing/marysue.htm Now, that looks a lot different and more complex from what you assumed a Mary Sue would be, right? Lets check your statement vis a vis the trope now: lol, that is one of the most absurd non-sequitures ever. The character development was wasted by 2 minutes of CGI-fighting? Guess that renders everybody in BP or Infinity War a Mary Sue right? That would be called "Plot Armor" and is the bane of most action heroes. It has nothing to do with MarySue writing. That is nonsense, and again would have nothing to do with Mary Sue writing: Is Thor Fragglerock a Mary Sue as he literally pulls out god like lightning powers during a fight, or gets beamed conveniently to Earth despite the broken bridge, or suddenly cries like a girl when getting a haircut? This is called deus ex machina writing unless it bends the established rules of the in-universe. ….So, how is WW not written as a MS: In a nutshell, WW is NOT written as a Mary Sue BECAUSE 1- the character undergoes development, her flaws and traumas have consequences 2- the character is not awarded with unwarranted attention and spotlighting - eg by outshining everybody with everything for instance her mortal mentor Steve, or by making other character acting out-of-character to give her unwarranted attention and spotlight 3- the character makes mistakes with real consequences and stakes, such as the death of the village people she protected, being wrong about nature of war and the identity of her enemy, or by losing her mentor. 4- the character is not put into unwarranted positions and missions bending the in-universe rules QED |
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Nov 10, 2018 1:12:07 GMT
That's debatable with Wonder Woman. Sure she was naive about humanity and she's gotta overcome that. That was a good start of character development, but was squandered with the CGI-fest fight with Ares. But overall though, you didn't even feel a hint of danger for her. And to top it off, much like Rey all of a sudden is able to use mind control, Wonder Woman seems to pull a random power out of her ass after she declares love is the answer to humanity and defeats Ares like nothing. if you arguing that WW is written as a MS, NO it's not debatable. You just do not understand the writing trope. First familiarize yourself with the writing concept, as defined on writers' sites like the famous Springhole: springhole.net/writing/whatisamarysue.htmspringhole.net/writing/marysue.htm Now, that looks a lot different and more complex from what you assumed a Mary Sue would be, right? Lets check your statement vis a vis the trope now: lol, that is one of the most absurd non-sequitures ever. The character development was wasted by 2 minutes of CGI-fighting? Guess that renders everybody in BP or Infinity War a Mary Sue right? That would be called "Plot Armor" and is the bane of most action heroes. It has nothing to do with MarySue writing. That is nonsense, and again would have nothing to do with Mary Sue writing: Is Thor Fragglerock a Mary Sue as he literally pulls out god like lightning powers during a fight, or gets beamed conveniently to Earth despite the broken bridge, or suddenly cries like a girl when getting a haircut? This is called deus ex machina writing unless it bends the established rules of the in-universe. ….So, how is WW not written as a MS: In a nutshell, WW is NOT written as a Mary Sue BECAUSE 1- the character undergoes development, her flaws and traumas have consequences 2- the character is not awarded with unwarranted attention and spotlighting - eg by outshining everybody with everything for instance her mortal mentor Steve, or by making other character acting out-of-character to give her unwarranted attention and spotlight 3- the character makes mistakes with real consequences and stakes, such as the death of the village people she protected, being wrong about nature of war and the identity of her enemy, or by losing her mentor. 4- the character is not put into unwarranted positions and missions bending the in-universe rules QED I never said she was a Mary Sue, and as I mentioned if you read what I said, she is naive and learns from it. But it ultimately squanders that with the "love" message because she only ponders the whole thing for a whole 5 minutes before Ares reveals himself. But that's not what I have a problem with. It's more than just making mistakes. There's the physicality to it as well and that's what I meant by feeling any danger for her. And while that's not exactly the definition of a Mary Sue, it still doesn't help her character or her development if you feel no danger for her. Of course I didn't expect her to die, but not even her hair was out of place by the end of the fight, and Ares is supposed to be one of her strongest foes. She's a demi-Goddess, I get it. But Ares is a "literal" God, who's just as powerful as Zeus and should be so much more powerful than her. Even though she has plot armor, doesn't mean you can't put her in danger. There was no threat to her. The MCU isn't perfect either with this, but at least by the end of their films, they all suffer beatings and are all bloodied and banged up. It's more than just making mistakes and the consequences around the main hero. |
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Post by poelzig on Nov 10, 2018 3:42:13 GMT
Mary Marvel would kick Captain Sue's ass.
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Post by DC-Fan on Nov 10, 2018 4:29:59 GMT
Bella Swan is a great example of a Mary Sue. Yes, she's very emo and she does have a lot of conflict. That still didn't explain why all the hottest guys were falling for her without her doing anything special, how she went through a vampire transformation easier than anyone ever did, how she ended up being the strongest vampire around without any apparent reason, or how her supposedly conflicted love triangle ended up getting magically resolved (without any effort from her I might add) in the one of the worst love story solutions ever conceived (one of her boyfriends fell in love with her daughter instead). You actually watched the Twilight movies? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 4:32:47 GMT
I wouldn't have argued that Wonder Woman is one, but I wouldn't have thought Rey from Star Wars was either. She was pining for her parents before and I feel like she has emotions and conflict. Rey just sort of struck me as a natural. Maybe that's where the wish fulfillment part of the Mary Sue criticism comes from but to me she just looks like a normal, albeit above average girl. It is Star Wars after all. I don't know how anybody except for other androids understands R2D2 or BB8, or how anybody but other Wookies understands Chewy.
I get the objection, perfect character means less conflict. But the more examples of already discussed Mary and Gary Stus I find, the closer I come to think it's kind of an academic bullshit theory.
Do you agree that Bella from Twilight is a Mary Sue too? She came up as an example. I've never watched the movies so I have no idea myself.
Bella Swan is a great example of a Mary Sue. Yes, she's very emo and she does have a lot of conflict. That still didn't explain why all the hottest guys were falling for her without her doing anything special, how she went through a vampire transformation easier than anyone ever did, how she ended up being the strongest vampire around without any apparent reason, or how her supposedly conflicted love triangle ended up getting magically resolved (without any effort from her I might add) in the one of the worst love story solutions ever conceived (one of her boyfriends fell in love with her daughter instead). Very illuminating. |
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Post by Lord Death Man on Nov 10, 2018 4:40:08 GMT
I think Marvel is going to bring that true grit for you this time out.
The eagle-eyed viewer will be on the lookout for used tampoons and verbal mention of cramps throughout the film. That ought to take some of the wind out of her sales, right?
We've gone too soft on the ladies fair; there should be some mention of premenstrual dysphoric disorder. No one woman can be labeled a Mary Sue if she's experiencing extreme sadness, hopelessness, irritability, or anger during the big third-act standoff.
C'mon Brie, give us a big postpartum psychosis-fueled smile. Hee hee hee...
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 10, 2018 4:49:22 GMT
Bella Swan is a great example of a Mary Sue. Yes, she's very emo and she does have a lot of conflict. That still didn't explain why all the hottest guys were falling for her without her doing anything special, how she went through a vampire transformation easier than anyone ever did, how she ended up being the strongest vampire around without any apparent reason, or how her supposedly conflicted love triangle ended up getting magically resolved (without any effort from her I might add) in the one of the worst love story solutions ever conceived (one of her boyfriends fell in love with her daughter instead). You actually watched the Twilight movies? The first 3, yes and segments of the last 2. |
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Nov 10, 2018 4:58:21 GMT
You actually watched the Twilight movies? The first 3, yes and segments of the last 2. I saw the last one, it was pretty cool, like the X-men. |
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Post by darkpast on Mar 7, 2019 15:17:18 GMT
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Post by CrepedCrusader on Mar 7, 2019 19:06:05 GMT
You failed. My theater is booked up the entire weekend. Just quit.
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Post by janntosh on Mar 7, 2019 19:14:46 GMT
Definitely sounds like it. A shame
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Post by janntosh on Mar 7, 2019 19:15:20 GMT
You failed. My theater is booked up the entire weekend. Just quit. I thought money doesn’t equate t quality? And his was always going to make money because it is a Marvel film folllwing Infinity War and leading into Endgame |
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Post by twothousandonemark on Mar 7, 2019 19:52:03 GMT
Who gives a fcuk.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 10, 2019 15:01:31 GMT
People smarter'n you. And by all accounts: yes, Captain Marvel is a Mary Sue. |
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 10, 2019 17:20:13 GMT
People smarter'n you. And by all accounts: yes, Captain Marvel is a Mary Sue. You haven't even watched the movie right? Anyway, I can tell you that she wasn't a Mary Sue. Anyone who claims different doesn't know what a Mary Sue is. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 10, 2019 17:24:08 GMT
People smarter'n you. And by all accounts: yes, Captain Marvel is a Mary Sue. You haven't even watched the movie right? Anyway, I can tell you that she wasn't a Mary Sue. Anyone who claims different doesn't know what a Mary Sue is. Nope. That's why I said "by all accounts," which at the time didn't include yours. But everything else I've heard is that she's lazy, a bitch, and gets everything handed to her without having to sacrifice anything. ETA: are you saying all those other guys are wrong? And do you agree that Rey is a Mary Sue? |
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 10, 2019 17:37:23 GMT
You haven't even watched the movie right? Anyway, I can tell you that she wasn't a Mary Sue. Anyone who claims different doesn't know what a Mary Sue is. Nope. That's why I said "by all accounts," which at the time didn't include yours. But everything else I've heard is that she's lazy, a bitch, and gets everything handed to her without having to sacrifice anything. ETA: are you saying all those other guys are wrong? And do you agree that Rey is a Mary Sue? I agree that Rey is a Mary Sue. Carol Danvers is not. And yes, I'm saying all those other guys are wrong. Danvers spends a good chunk of the movie getting beat down. She's also impulsive and it gets her into trouble. And yes, she does get handed power, but it's no different from WW getting handed power. Besides, simply being powerful doesn't make one a Mary Sue. It's when you're powerful without any explanation (like Rey) that makes you one, and CM's powers were definitely explained. I get why people might think she's bitch. She has this sarcastic, somewhat smug attitude but that means she's not wooden. I don't get why she'd be called lazy though. She trains even in the middle of the night. |
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 10, 2019 17:56:24 GMT
Nope. That's why I said "by all accounts," which at the time didn't include yours. But everything else I've heard is that she's lazy, a bitch, and gets everything handed to her without having to sacrifice anything. ETA: are you saying all those other guys are wrong? And do you agree that Rey is a Mary Sue? I agree that Rey is a Mary Sue. Carol Danvers is not. And yes, I'm saying all those other guys are wrong. Danvers spends a good chunk of the movie getting beat down. She's also impulsive and it gets her into trouble. And yes, she does get handed power, but it's no different from WW getting handed power. Besides, simply being powerful doesn't make one a Mary Sue. It's when you're powerful without any explanation (like Rey) that makes you one, and CM's powers were definitely explained. I get why people might think she's bitch. She has this sarcastic, somewhat smug attitude but that means she's not wooden. I don't get why she'd be called lazy though. She trains even in the middle of the night. I might've accidentally added "lazy" in a stroke of editorial flourish. But the rest of their comments were accurately represented!  Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response. I can't comment since I haven't seen it, and I'm nothing if not restrained about films I haven't seen, particularly franchise films like the MCU. I've got a reputation to uphold, after all. ETA: Innit? |
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