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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 5:26:59 GMT
I hope not. I'd love to see a really well-written female character get a movie in the MCU
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Post by thisguy4000 on Nov 9, 2018 5:57:32 GMT
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 9, 2018 6:05:48 GMT
I'm actually worried about it. I just hope the MCU is smart enough to stay away from it.
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Post by darkpast on Nov 9, 2018 6:55:55 GMT
So male fans afraid of strong over powered female characters?
i don't know the comic, i have not even seen a trailer for CM, no real comment yet
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Post by politicidal on Nov 9, 2018 14:49:15 GMT
The internet will have its mind made up either way.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 9, 2018 15:11:48 GMT
So male fans afraid of strong over powered female characters? i don't know the comic, i have not even seen a trailer for CM, no real comment yet That's not what a Mary Sue is.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 9, 2018 15:33:21 GMT
Maybe, if you're ashamed of vaginas
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 17:59:08 GMT
So male fans afraid of strong over powered female characters? i don't know the comic, i have not even seen a trailer for CM, no real comment yet That's not what a Mary Sue is. My (not great) understanding of the concept is that it's a character who's so strong, so competent and picks things up so fast that they're considered unrealistically gifted and not relatable. Which to me is the academic community's way of saying strong woman = sinister, or doesn't reflect expectations of what's considered normal behavior.
I looked it up before and didn't always understand the examples. Author/creator insertion seemed like a common theme, like a Mary Sue is supposed to be the author/creator's idealized version of themselves.
It's funny, the first time I heard Mary Sue I thought it was describing somebody bland and boring. No offense to anyone named Mary Sue. I look up examples and find people like Rey from The Force Awakens and Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games and think why? Did they not have emotions? And why is it bad to essentially just be competent?
It applies to males to, and I looked up examples and landed on Wesley Crusher from Star Trek TNG. Even then I'm like why, because he's gifted? Because he's gifted and therefore only barely real and lacking in depth? I mean if anybody did that, it's the actor not the character.
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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 9, 2018 18:17:46 GMT
I've kind of grown to resent that particular term, myself, only because it is sooo overused these days and often by people who don't understand it. But I'm even more sick of people thinking that anyone who uses the term is "threatened by a strong female heroine because it emasculates them" or whatever. Actually, it's quite the opposite.
Take Rey from Star Wars, for example, being as she's one of the most recent and common representations of this term. I was all for and even hoping/expecting a really strong and dynamic female lead (possibly Luke's daughter) for the Sequel Trilogy well before it went into production. But Rey (who I don't hate and certainly wouldn't say is as annoying as Jar Jar) isn't even close to being on par with Luke. Not because "he's a male and she's a female" (*sigh*), but for the simple reason that she doesn't have an interesting arc and is way too overpowered. A positive female role model and dynamic character she is not. Luke, on the other hand, goes from zero to hero (hero's journey character) in a highly investing way throughout three movies. He's a far more well developed and relatable character. He got beat up, lost fights, made mistakes, learned lessons, and wasn't already adored by everyone but rather had to prove himself first through trial and error. I would have loved a good female heroine that was equal or better than him. If you really put Luke from A New Hope and Rey from The Force Awakens together, this becomes quite evident.
Rey is already a force god with no training whatsoever and is beloved by everyone, constantly being favored by complete strangers over their life long comrades. She knows how to operate the Millenium Falcon better than Han, despite having just a few minutes knowledge of it, as well as somehow understanding the wookie and droid language with no explanation. Plus she constantly makes the right decisions with seemingly no mistakes and easily gets out of bad situations with little or no effort. It's like the universe bends towards her will, which doesn't make for a convincing or engaging character. Most heroes have flaws, lessons learned, and an arc which is what makes them relatable and interesting. I could go on and on but I think that about covers it.
And before you say that I feel threatened by a female lead and am a "misogynistic bigot" or whatever (just a silly and overly generic excuse), Leia, Ripley, Sarah Connor, and even Wonder Woman are all in my top ten favorite protagonists of all time. Those are great female heroines that make for strong role models whereas Rey is totally unrelatable and unrealistic. I wanna see a female Marvel heroine that really kicks some ass and is a great character but is still relatable and has flaws just like every other great hero.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 18:35:18 GMT
So male fans afraid of strong over powered female characters? i don't know the comic, i have not even seen a trailer for CM, no real comment yet This sort of mind set just adds to the problem. I mean, yes, there are plenty of pathetic males who feel this way. My uncle, who is a HUGE comic fan and sees EVERY movie from every studio wouldn't go see Wonder Woman because he's apparently that threatened by strong women... BUT writing these invulnerable Mary Sue types only hurts the chances of having equality in the film industry. It is, in itself, sexism in a different way. Why does Rey have to be so perfect? It's because the hack filmmakers are too self aware that they're writing for a female. How about just writing a good character that happens to be a woman? That's what I hope Marvel did with Captain Marvel.
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Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 9, 2018 18:45:27 GMT
So male fans afraid of strong over powered female characters? i don't know the comic, i have not even seen a trailer for CM, no real comment yet This sort of mind set just adds to the problem. I mean, yes, there are plenty of pathetic males who feel this way. My uncle, who is a HUGE comic fan and sees EVERY movie from every studio wouldn't go see Wonder Woman because he's apparently that threatened by strong women... BUT writing these invulnerable Mary Sue types only hurts the chances of having equality in the film industry. It is, in itself, sexism in a different way. Why does Rey have to be so perfect? It's because the hack filmmakers are too self aware that they're writing for a female. How about just writing a good character that happens to be a woman? That's what I hope Marvel did with Captain Marvel. lol, is that the uncle who is married to that super-religious aunt who freaks out when mentioning that Easrer and Christmas are based on pagan tradition? Rey is an example of exceptional writing incompetence - she happened bc JJ is a hack writer, Kennedy pushed that the female lead must be awesome in every scene and may not be overshadowed by males, and Kasdan just did not care and was too lazy to look up Mary Sue writing. Also, nobody dared to say something, not even Carry "the script doctor" Fisher who could have said: wait, I am hugging the smelly stranger-girl who just maimed my beloved son so to mourn for dead Han - and ignore Chewie and my returning pilot, wtf...? Furiosa and Wonder Woman got the strong female lead right however.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 18:52:05 GMT
This sort of mind set just adds to the problem. I mean, yes, there are plenty of pathetic males who feel this way. My uncle, who is a HUGE comic fan and sees EVERY movie from every studio wouldn't go see Wonder Woman because he's apparently that threatened by strong women... BUT writing these invulnerable Mary Sue types only hurts the chances of having equality in the film industry. It is, in itself, sexism in a different way. Why does Rey have to be so perfect? It's because the hack filmmakers are too self aware that they're writing for a female. How about just writing a good character that happens to be a woman? That's what I hope Marvel did with Captain Marvel. lol, is that the uncle who is married to that super-religious aunt who freaks out when mentioning that Easrer and Christmas are based on pagan tradition? Rey is an example of exceptional writing incompetence - she happened bc JJ is a hack writer, Kennedy pushed that the female lead must be awesome in every scene and may not be overshadowed by males, and Kasdan just did not care and was too lazy to look up Mary Sue writing. Also, nobody dared to say something, not even Carry "the script doctor" Fisher who could have said: wait, I am hugging the smelly stranger-girl who just maimed my beloved son so to mourn for dead Han - and ignore Chewie and my returning pilot, wtf...? Furiosa and Wonder Woman got the strong female lead right however. Haha. No. Different side of the family. My dad has the same weird problems with women. My mom thinks it has something to do with their mother. She was a very strong, outspoken woman that did things only her way. Grandma was awesome like that. They apparently have issues though because of it .
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 18:54:11 GMT
This sort of mind set just adds to the problem. I mean, yes, there are plenty of pathetic males who feel this way. My uncle, who is a HUGE comic fan and sees EVERY movie from every studio wouldn't go see Wonder Woman because he's apparently that threatened by strong women... BUT writing these invulnerable Mary Sue types only hurts the chances of having equality in the film industry. It is, in itself, sexism in a different way. Why does Rey have to be so perfect? It's because the hack filmmakers are too self aware that they're writing for a female. How about just writing a good character that happens to be a woman? That's what I hope Marvel did with Captain Marvel. lol, is that the uncle who is married to that super-religious aunt who freaks out when mentioning that Easrer and Christmas are based on pagan tradition? Rey is an example of exceptional writing incompetence - she happened bc JJ is a hack writer, Kennedy pushed that the female lead must be awesome in every scene and may not be overshadowed by males, and Kasdan just did not care and was too lazy to look up Mary Sue writing. Also, nobody dared to say something, not even Carry "the script doctor" Fisher who could have said: wait, I am hugging the smelly stranger-girl who just maimed my beloved son so to mourn for dead Han - and ignore Chewie and my returning pilot, wtf...? Furiosa and Wonder Woman got the strong female lead right however. I liked those two. Sometimes the situation calls for a badass who shows up and kicks everyone's ass. Sometimes, most of the time, I love a fleshed out, complicated character. Other times, I want John Wick to show up and rain terror and death unto the bad guys.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 18:59:33 GMT
lol, is that the uncle who is married to that super-religious aunt who freaks out when mentioning that Easrer and Christmas are based on pagan tradition? Rey is an example of exceptional writing incompetence - she happened bc JJ is a hack writer, Kennedy pushed that the female lead must be awesome in every scene and may not be overshadowed by males, and Kasdan just did not care and was too lazy to look up Mary Sue writing. Also, nobody dared to say something, not even Carry "the script doctor" Fisher who could have said: wait, I am hugging the smelly stranger-girl who just maimed my beloved son so to mourn for dead Han - and ignore Chewie and my returning pilot, wtf...? Furiosa and Wonder Woman got the strong female lead right however. I liked those two. Sometimes the situation calls for a badass who shows up and kicks everyone's ass. Sometimes, most of the time, I love a fleshed out, complicated character. Other times, I want John Wick to show up and rain terror and death unto the bad guys. But even the characters that kick ass must have weaknesses and extreme opposition. Otherwise there's no conflict, no tension, no satisfaction in finally seeing the hero succeed...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 19:12:30 GMT
I liked those two. Sometimes the situation calls for a badass who shows up and kicks everyone's ass. Sometimes, most of the time, I love a fleshed out, complicated character. Other times, I want John Wick to show up and rain terror and death unto the bad guys. But even the characters that kick ass must have weaknesses and extreme opposition. Otherwise there's no conflict, no tension, no satisfaction in finally seeing the hero succeed... No disagreement there. It's rare that I see it though, a character truly devoid of weakness I disagreed with almost every example I came across and none that I thought of on my own really work. I thought for a while maybe Spock? Or Superman, but they seem less likely the more I think about them. I didn't agree with the examples I found like Captain Kirk or Wesley Crusher, or the Goth chick from one of the NCIS shows. Or Alice from Resident Evil.
I'm banking on missing something obvious because none of the examples really check out for me.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Nov 9, 2018 20:06:37 GMT
I have a feeling that some Mary Sueness will come into play.
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Post by Skaathar on Nov 9, 2018 20:09:58 GMT
That's not what a Mary Sue is. My (not great) understanding of the concept is that it's a character who's so strong, so competent and picks things up so fast that they're considered unrealistically gifted and not relatable. Which to me is the academic community's way of saying strong woman = sinister, or doesn't reflect expectations of what's considered normal behavior.
I looked it up before and didn't always understand the examples. Author/creator insertion seemed like a common theme, like a Mary Sue is supposed to be the author/creator's idealized version of themselves.
It's funny, the first time I heard Mary Sue I thought it was describing somebody bland and boring. No offense to anyone named Mary Sue. I look up examples and find people like Rey from The Force Awakens and Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games and think why? Did they not have emotions? And why is it bad to essentially just be competent?
It applies to males to, and I looked up examples and landed on Wesley Crusher from Star Trek TNG. Even then I'm like why, because he's gifted? Because he's gifted and therefore only barely real and lacking in depth? I mean if anybody did that, it's the actor not the character.
Simply being overpowered does not make one a Mary Sue (or a Gary Stue). It's when you're overpowered WITHOUT making any sense that you end up becoming a Mary Sue. I mean, that's not the only indication of a Mary Sue but that's one of the easiest ones to spot. The definition of a Mary Sue (or Gary Stue) is simply a character in a story which the author created as a placeholder for themselves. The Mary Sue ends up becoming the author's ideal version of themselves, which usually ends up with the story universe contriving to bend itself around whatever the Mary Sue needs to happen, whether that means she gets the best powers, the best lovers, the most respect, etc. and usually done without her having to really work for it. A good way to understand this is to compare Wonder Woman with Rey. Both are strong female characters but only one falls into the Mary Sue stereotype. Both are shown to be skilled, competent fighters... but only Wonder Woman's skill makes sense. We're shown how she trained and gained her skill. In comparison, there's no logical explanation why Rey is so skilled. Both are able to speak and understand multiple languages but only Diana is given a reason as to why she knows multiple languages. Both acquire great powers, but only Diana has an explanation for said powers (demi god and all that). And to top it all off, Diana is not good at everything she does or she does not know everything. She's still ignorant and naive in a lot of things, she does not magically know how to fly a plane, etc. Rey is just seemingly capable of doing and knowing anything that's thrown her way. So there's the difference. People do not hate strong female characters (at least most people don't), it's poorly written strong female characters that make no sense that they hate. And it's not a misogynistic/sexist thing either. General audiences hate Gary Stues just as much. Why do you think Superman isn't as well loved as he was back in the 60's-80's? There's a reason people started liking flawed, edgy heroes. It's because no one likes perfectly boring Mary Sues and Gary Stues.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 20:21:49 GMT
My (not great) understanding of the concept is that it's a character who's so strong, so competent and picks things up so fast that they're considered unrealistically gifted and not relatable. Which to me is the academic community's way of saying strong woman = sinister, or doesn't reflect expectations of what's considered normal behavior.
I looked it up before and didn't always understand the examples. Author/creator insertion seemed like a common theme, like a Mary Sue is supposed to be the author/creator's idealized version of themselves.
It's funny, the first time I heard Mary Sue I thought it was describing somebody bland and boring. No offense to anyone named Mary Sue. I look up examples and find people like Rey from The Force Awakens and Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games and think why? Did they not have emotions? And why is it bad to essentially just be competent?
It applies to males to, and I looked up examples and landed on Wesley Crusher from Star Trek TNG. Even then I'm like why, because he's gifted? Because he's gifted and therefore only barely real and lacking in depth? I mean if anybody did that, it's the actor not the character.
Simply being overpowered does not make one a Mary Sue (or a Gary Stue). It's when you're overpowered WITHOUT making any sense that you end up becoming a Mary Sue. I mean, that's not the only indication of a Mary Sue but that's one of the easiest ones to spot. The definition of a Mary Sue (or Gary Stue) is simply a character in a story which the author created as a placeholder for themselves. The Mary Sue ends up becoming the author's ideal version of themselves, which usually ends up with the story universe contriving to bend itself around whatever the Mary Sue needs to happen, whether that means she gets the best powers, the best lovers, the most respect, etc. and usually done without her having to really work for it. A good way to understand this is to compare Wonder Woman with Rey. Both are strong female characters but only one falls into the Mary Sue stereotype. Both are shown to be skilled, competent fighters... but only Wonder Woman's skill makes sense. We're shown how she trained and gained her skill. In comparison, there's no logical explanation why Rey is so skilled. Both are able to speak and understand multiple languages but only Diana is given a reason as to why she knows multiple languages. Both acquire great powers, but only Diana has an explanation for said powers (demi god and all that). And to top it all off, Diana is not good at everything she does or she does not know everything. She's still ignorant and naive in a lot of things, she does not magically know how to fly a plane, etc. Rey is just seemingly capable of doing and knowing anything that's thrown her way. So there's the difference. People do not hate strong female characters (at least most people don't), it's poorly written strong female characters that make no sense that they hate. And it's not a misogynistic/sexist thing either. General audiences hate Gary Stues just as much. Why do you think Superman isn't as well loved as he was back in the 60's-80's? There's a reason people started liking flawed, edgy heroes. It's because no one likes perfectly boring Mary Sues and Gary Stues. Exactly. Very well said.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 20:34:52 GMT
My (not great) understanding of the concept is that it's a character who's so strong, so competent and picks things up so fast that they're considered unrealistically gifted and not relatable. Which to me is the academic community's way of saying strong woman = sinister, or doesn't reflect expectations of what's considered normal behavior.
I looked it up before and didn't always understand the examples. Author/creator insertion seemed like a common theme, like a Mary Sue is supposed to be the author/creator's idealized version of themselves.
It's funny, the first time I heard Mary Sue I thought it was describing somebody bland and boring. No offense to anyone named Mary Sue. I look up examples and find people like Rey from The Force Awakens and Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games and think why? Did they not have emotions? And why is it bad to essentially just be competent?
It applies to males to, and I looked up examples and landed on Wesley Crusher from Star Trek TNG. Even then I'm like why, because he's gifted? Because he's gifted and therefore only barely real and lacking in depth? I mean if anybody did that, it's the actor not the character.
Simply being overpowered does not make one a Mary Sue (or a Gary Stue). It's when you're overpowered WITHOUT making any sense that you end up becoming a Mary Sue. I mean, that's not the only indication of a Mary Sue but that's one of the easiest ones to spot. The definition of a Mary Sue (or Gary Stue) is simply a character in a story which the author created as a placeholder for themselves. The Mary Sue ends up becoming the author's ideal version of themselves, which usually ends up with the story universe contriving to bend itself around whatever the Mary Sue needs to happen, whether that means she gets the best powers, the best lovers, the most respect, etc. and usually done without her having to really work for it. A good way to understand this is to compare Wonder Woman with Rey. Both are strong female characters but only one falls into the Mary Sue stereotype. Both are shown to be skilled, competent fighters... but only Wonder Woman's skill makes sense. We're shown how she trained and gained her skill. In comparison, there's no logical explanation why Rey is so skilled. Both are able to speak and understand multiple languages but only Diana is given a reason as to why she knows multiple languages. Both acquire great powers, but only Diana has an explanation for said powers (demi god and all that). And to top it all off, Diana is not good at everything she does or she does not know everything. She's still ignorant and naive in a lot of things, she does not magically know how to fly a plane, etc. Rey is just seemingly capable of doing and knowing anything that's thrown her way. So there's the difference. People do not hate strong female characters (at least most people don't), it's poorly written strong female characters that make no sense that they hate. And it's not a misogynistic/sexist thing either. General audiences hate Gary Stues just as much. Why do you think Superman isn't as well loved as he was back in the 60's-80's? There's a reason people started liking flawed, edgy heroes. It's because no one likes perfectly boring Mary Sues and Gary Stues. I wouldn't have argued that Wonder Woman is one, but I wouldn't have thought Rey from Star Wars was either. She was pining for her parents before and I feel like she has emotions and conflict. Rey just sort of struck me as a natural. Maybe that's where the wish fulfillment part of the Mary Sue criticism comes from but to me she just looks like a normal, albeit above average girl. It is Star Wars after all. I don't know how anybody except for other androids understands R2D2 or BB8, or how anybody but other Wookies understands Chewy.
I get the objection, perfect character means less conflict. But the more examples of already discussed Mary and Gary Stus I find, the closer I come to think it's kind of an academic bullshit theory.
Do you agree that Bella from Twilight is a Mary Sue too? She came up as an example. I've never watched the movies so I have no idea myself.
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Post by HorrorMetal on Nov 9, 2018 21:45:40 GMT
Simply being overpowered does not make one a Mary Sue (or a Gary Stue). It's when you're overpowered WITHOUT making any sense that you end up becoming a Mary Sue. I mean, that's not the only indication of a Mary Sue but that's one of the easiest ones to spot. The definition of a Mary Sue (or Gary Stue) is simply a character in a story which the author created as a placeholder for themselves. The Mary Sue ends up becoming the author's ideal version of themselves, which usually ends up with the story universe contriving to bend itself around whatever the Mary Sue needs to happen, whether that means she gets the best powers, the best lovers, the most respect, etc. and usually done without her having to really work for it. A good way to understand this is to compare Wonder Woman with Rey. Both are strong female characters but only one falls into the Mary Sue stereotype. Both are shown to be skilled, competent fighters... but only Wonder Woman's skill makes sense. We're shown how she trained and gained her skill. In comparison, there's no logical explanation why Rey is so skilled. Both are able to speak and understand multiple languages but only Diana is given a reason as to why she knows multiple languages. Both acquire great powers, but only Diana has an explanation for said powers (demi god and all that). And to top it all off, Diana is not good at everything she does or she does not know everything. She's still ignorant and naive in a lot of things, she does not magically know how to fly a plane, etc. Rey is just seemingly capable of doing and knowing anything that's thrown her way. So there's the difference. People do not hate strong female characters (at least most people don't), it's poorly written strong female characters that make no sense that they hate. And it's not a misogynistic/sexist thing either. General audiences hate Gary Stues just as much. Why do you think Superman isn't as well loved as he was back in the 60's-80's? There's a reason people started liking flawed, edgy heroes. It's because no one likes perfectly boring Mary Sues and Gary Stues. I wouldn't have argued that Wonder Woman is one, but I wouldn't have thought Rey from Star Wars was either. She was pining for her parents before and I feel like she has emotions and conflict. Rey just sort of struck me as a natural. Maybe that's where the wish fulfillment part of the Mary Sue criticism comes from but to me she just looks like a normal, albeit above average girl. It is Star Wars after all. I don't know how anybody except for other androids understands R2D2 or BB8, or how anybody but other Wookies understands Chewy.
Right, but that isn't really what a Mary Sue is, either. Just because someone is emotional or has a tragic backstory with a struggle to overcome doesn't mean they aren't a Mary Sue. Rey had an immeasurable set of skills with no training whatsoever, and practically knew how to do everything better than anyone. She knew how to speak fluent wookie/droid (how?), could operate the Milennium Falcon better than Han Solo himself (how?), and basically had enough knowledge and experience with the force as a Jedi master (how?). She even had a highly advanced light saber skill and could easily more than hold her own against those who have been using that weapon for years. There was no explanation behind any of it. Add to that how Leia hugged her after the battle (with Leia's own son, no less) and not Chewie or her returning soldier. She was well respected and beloved by everyone without any reason behind it other than being written that way. I don't hate the Rey character and I certainly don't think she's the worst thing to happen to Star Wars like many others due, but her constant comparisons to a Mary Sue type character are clearly evident no matter how you look at it. A dynamic and relatable character, she is not.
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