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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 21, 2018 2:39:08 GMT
Man, just when I was actually starting to think that Supergirl found a storyline that was relevant without being too heavy handed (most of the time), they have what is arguably the dumbest conversation imaginable - humans with powers, and how impossible and horrible it would be. Seriously? Seriously.... Kara has met humans with super powers, good ones. She knows the term "meta-human". And humans are fundamentally incompatible with powers? What a crock of shit.
Mind you, while I supported Lena generally in favor of at least considering some type of improvement to human physiology, her saying they wouldn't give powers to bad people was profoundly stupid.
And sure, that's basically the crux of any premise of genetic modification or development beyond what humans are now; how can you ensure that there's an equitable distribution of these enhancements, or that said enhancements aren't going to be abused? They had the characters on Deep Space Nine once have a very (very) similar discussion; and there were reasonable points there too, but then there were the strawman ideas of "well, if you can make super-human, parents will feel the need to do it so their kid doesn't get left out," ignoring the fact that they're part of a galactic society with, not unlike Supergirl, entirely separate species who posses abilities regular humans do not - like extra-normal strength, longer life spans due to slower aging and heightened mental abilities. And we're not strictly talking about mental "powers" like telepathy, but just something as mundane as being able to do super advanced, complex math equations in your head without the aid of a computer.
And it's like, why the hell shouldn't humans be suped up to do these things, if technology allows us to rewrite our DNA or do whatever to our brains? Why wouldn't we try to do what evolution fell short of? Our evolution has left us susceptible to cancer and being stabbed to death with pointy sticks; it's only gotten us so far.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2018 12:00:18 GMT
Yeah. You make a lot of good points there Stargazer and I like Lena but I wasn't in favour of her comments about people with superpowers either and giving too many people superheroes powers would be extremely dumb and stupid 'cause there is no way of knowing which people would abuse them and if the powers would change them and make them into other people like we have seen with some other characters who have gotten powers in these shows and gone on to become villains. I am interested in seeing where they are heading with this season though and I have a feeling Agent Liberty might end up getting superpowers at some point 'cause I can't see him being a big threat to Supergirl when they have their final face off unless he gets another villain to fight her. I don't know that much about the character and you and cjdull76 might with him being a Superman villain but I read he is supposed to be an expert in military tactics, hand in hand combats and marksmanship and his suit is supposed to have all these weapons on it and has a jetpack that makes him fly but we are not seeing that with him so far and I don't think he could even beat James in a fair fight.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 21, 2018 15:24:28 GMT
I don't think I've read any of the comics Agent Liberty appears in.
I was actually more in favor with Lena's position, and thought it was dumb how everyone else was basically ganging up on the opposite side; and completely ignoring the fact that, not only does at least two of them know there are humans with powers, but good ones. I mean, did no one writing that scene stop and remember that this series is tied to three other shows about superheroes? And I could have sworn the first time Barry met Kara there was mention of meta-humans being on her world. The only thing I really disagreed with her on was her statement that "only the good ones" who wouldn't abuse their powers, would get them. Like, obviously you can't pick and choose who will or won't abuse their powers; or create a divide humanity.
Just the same, I think humans should absolutely be made stronger, more durable; and hell, if you can make them have the ability to fly, fucking do it. This whole "walking" thing is bullshit. Even from the real world perspective where we don't have known extraterrestrials to compare ourselves too, to come up short; we're pretty puny, fail things that are easily broken. A slight variation in our surroundings, being too hot or too cold can kill us, give us the wrong mixture of gases in our air. Even the standard environment can kill some of us, whether it's standing outside too long under the sun; or ingesting something grown from the earth, like a peanut; to say nothing about all the non fatal ways our bodies might overreact to common things like pollen or dust. And then there are times when our own bodies betray us through any number of debilitating or fatal diseases.
The thing that kind of annoys me at times, primarily with the likes of Supergirl, is some idea that these aliens have "powers," as if it were magic; rather than a biological function. So if you take all of those qualities about humans above, and then some, and actually have an interstellar standard to compare to, where life beyond Earth is actually much heartier than the average human, to say nothing of certain abilities that may defy evolutionary reason, we're like little porcelain dolls compared to everyone else.
Sure, there are going to abuse any advances in human development; especially if there were to ever reach such fantastic developments as something like shooting lasers out of your eyes. I mean, we literally invented war. Think it's safe to say no other species on this planet has ever done that. But I don't think that should necessarily preclude humanity from developing beyond what it is now; or stop us from exploring what we could become. If we don't, I think we'll likely plateau, if we haven't already, and eventually die off.
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Post by dazz on Nov 22, 2018 1:26:27 GMT
imo purposely giving people powers is stupid as people have proven whilst generally we can be trusted with things that can cause problems too many of us to be ignored shouldn't even be allowed a skateboard & a spud gun, giving those people super human abilities is stupid, now improving human biology to benefit peoples lives is a little difference, I personal thin if we could say engineer a way to give enhanced healing, alter blood to make everyone a universal donor, increased sight and hearing and such to a fair amount that's fine, they aren't dangerous, and if those sort of enhancements for others bothers you then you can find ways to protect yourself from it such as sound proofing or one way or tinted glass and such, but enhanced strength or speed seems morel ikely to cause problems imo, same can be said for enhancing intellect, giving those more inclined to act rather than think a greater IQ so they can half think up even more outlandish things to fuck up seems irresponsible.
I don't recall how the argument went but especially for in America an argument against such an idea is pretty easy to make, America has a far greater murder rate than similarly developed country with stricter gun laws, this seems a rather obvious connection, the greater access to weapons that can be used with minimal effort to cause mortal injuries with a greater chance of not being stopped before hand allows for people to act at an extreme based on emotion, you give those same people the ability to crush concrete with a punch and you are just asking for trouble, the argument seems pretty easy if you cant properly police guns which regardless leave definitive evidence of the what was used specifically such as calibre, and striations which can determine make and model of weapons and such just how can you expect to police an entire nation or world of people with the same superhuman abilities?
Also the chaos a normal fight can cause can be insane imagine that with two drunk idiots with the strength & durability to smash through walls, I think doing that stuff could work only if our technology for things like more durable construction materials increased so that a enhanced human brawl couldn't possibly level a building.
Sure aliens have those abilities but they grew up with them a lot of the time so they know how to use them, or lived in environments where their enhanced abilities didn't pose a major risk, give normal people superpowers en mass and you are asking for trouble and it's naïve to think otherwise really, also Lena seems quite stupid in this, the anti alien people aren't anti alien rightfully, sure some may have a valid bone to pick with some but clearly by the intense and immediate hate shown to any aliens regardless of whether they did anything or not shows these ignorant pricks hate because they want to hate, they want someone to blame, so they picked aliens, giving them powers wont make them cute and cuddly it will just give them added weapons in their hate fuelled war, and once they get done with the aliens they would simply turn on one another, because they don't actually have a belief they have an excuse to hate, and if that excuse is justified and allowed to go on they'll simply turn that hate to something else once that excuse goes away.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 22, 2018 6:02:01 GMT
but enhanced strength or speed seems morel ikely to cause problems imo, same can be said for enhancing intellect, giving those more inclined to act rather than think a greater IQ so they can half think up even more outlandish things to fuck up seems irresponsible.
I don't recall how the argument went but especially for in America an argument against such an idea is pretty easy to make, America has a far greater murder rate than similarly developed country with stricter gun laws, this seems a rather obvious connection, the greater access to weapons that can be used with minimal effort to cause mortal injuries with a greater chance of not being stopped before hand allows for people to act at an extreme based on emotion, you give those same people the ability to crush concrete with a punch and you are just asking for trouble, the argument seems pretty easy if you cant properly police guns which regardless leave definitive evidence of the what was used specifically such as calibre, and striations which can determine make and model of weapons and such just how can you expect to police an entire nation or world of people with the same superhuman abilities?
Also the chaos a normal fight can cause can be insane imagine that with two drunk idiots with the strength & durability to smash through walls, I think doing that stuff could work only if our technology for things like more durable construction materials increased so that a enhanced human brawl couldn't possibly level a building.
The important thing here, I would say, is that in contrast to something like a gun, that has one distinct function, many of these types of enhancements would stand to have profound and far reaching, positive ramifications. The ability to manipulate an increase strength could cure diseases that affect muscle control, extended mobility to the aged, and allow humanity to travel among the stars, by reducing the negative effects of weightlessness, or providing humans the option to settle on planets with gravity different from what we developed in. Honestly, I think your argument about enhanced intellect is more than a little weak; capacity speaks nothing to how it's molded, let alone used. And if certain world leaders are proof of anything, you literally don't have to be a genius to maneuver yourself into a position do serious damage, predominantly caused by their lack of intelligence or rational think. If we should learn anything from the world today, or even the history of humanity on the whole as we know it, it should arguably be the need to improve out intelligence, rather than accept where we are. Is there invariably going to be someone who will try to exploit that? Maybe so, but better to have everyone else's wits sharpened and prepared to see that person for who they are, than not. One might even argue that, that's why we are where we are now. We're like, two generations away from watering our crops with Gaterade. But there again, beyond the general upgrade for the populace, that same technology could invariably be applied to neurological issues that impair basic functions of the brain. Goodbye Alzheimer, schizophrenia and all the rest. Have a debilitating stroke? We can rebuild it. In my opinion, the positive potential far outweighs the negative on a great many of these types of enhancements. And if we don't naturally enhance our intellect, or even if we do, I envision that humanity will eventually begin to integrate technology into their biology; combining their own minds with the computing ability of the latest and great devices our innovation has to offer. Possibly even leading to a collective, technologically linked consciousness... So whether biologically done or through a blending of biological and technological, It's arguably just a matter of time. Personally I'd trust biological improvements over cybernetics - but that just may be my overt concern over humanity accidentally making the Borg or Cybermen real.... But can that really be said for most aliens? I mean, in terms of Supergirl, it's pretty much whatever the writers decide; and the thing that often bugs me is that they basically treat aliens and their "powers" as if it were magic and arbitrary rules apply; especially when you get into something like the recent episode involving Parasite. He arguably shouldn't have been able to just touch an alien and suck out the toy surprise without taking everything that made a given alien what they were. It'd be like saying he could steal someone's eye color because it's a novelty color, without taking any variety of other biological traits that are at least tied in some way to how the eye color is expressed, if not a lot of other stuff too; a kidney, a big toe, maybe whatever funny shaped bits pass for reproductive organs on Rigel VII. It's all part and parcel. More to that end, it's entirely plausible that many of those races had done a bit of genetic tinkering at some point in their history. If you develop the means to travel interstellarly, then you've probably had the scientific know how to edit your gnome; and the odds seem better than fair that at some point or another a civilization that has the technology is going to make some use of it, it's too tempting, to say nothing of all the above reason. Then once it's done, those changes get passed on to subsequent generations. Various iterations of Krypton even show varying degrees of this; all the way down to highly controlled conception of a child by artificially combing the DNA of the prospective parents, predetermining all of its traits, then growing it in a mechanical pod. Their powers aren't strictly natural; they don't have the ability to fly or all of the other super abilities on their native planet; just the super-dense cellular structure needed to live on the heavier gravity of Krypton. And so, so, so many Kryptons abuse those powers given half a chance, but it's only generally the fringe who would call for Clark or Kara's powers to be curtailed, on the off chance they would be inclined to follow suit. Then you've got the likes of the two races of Martians. I have serious doubts about an alien species with all of the incredible abilities J'Onn and his people have - from shape shifting, to telepathy, to phase shifting, flight, and digging into his conventional comic book history, heat vision - all came about through natural evolution and did not involve intentional manipulation. And they've been at war with their sister race for centuries.
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Post by dazz on Nov 22, 2018 15:30:11 GMT
My thing is im not against genetic modifications in moderation, I think the idea of giving people super powers however is idiotic, as I said look at the trouble and chaos general peoples idiocies create and the damage this causes, you make them strong, fast & hard enough to possible demolish buildings by hand and you are begging for probleems.
Also before we start making it harder for us to die maybe figure a way we don't keep multiplying like rabbits consuming ever increasing resources without a means to replenish them or off set the growing populations tax on the world.
Then comes the whole how do you even do I fairly, can it be done fairly, what about those hwo would refuse due to religious beleifs is it then fair that they are left genetically inferior just because of their religion? that's sure going to help isn't it? people already look down on other religions & cultures because they aren't allowed to do this oh they have to do this, what do you think happens when those people then are not genetically enhanced and their is a inferiority to their genetics compared to another cultures?
As is we are evolving into better forms of ourselves atleast physically, intellect raises generation to generation, what was a low end genius 50 years ago would just be above average now, people who were considered not mentally retarded back then and able to be executed due to being of sound mind would actually not pass no and would be spared a death sentence, physically our athletes are getting stronger & faster, and we are gradually improving which means there is time for the consciousness of the world to gradually change with it.
As for the gun thing no it's not really different the point is guns can kill people but so can knives, hammers, spades and forks, but people in countries where guns are not so easily obtained do not tend to kill one another as much as they do in places where guns are legal, because those other methods require effort and risk, even when emotionally stirred up the effort & risk associated with trying to kill someone is big enough that people wont just react and do so, but with guns where it takes little effort and can be so easily taken people tend to kill each other easier, you turn a person into a living weapon with reduced risk's and effort required to kill with their bare hands and people will do so, unless you think the reason the US has say 5 times the murder rate of the UK is because Americans are 5 times more likely to be homicidal maniacs or evil? I don't myself I think it is just to do with guns make making a dangerous choice far easier than a knife does.
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