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Post by Aj_June on Nov 22, 2018 13:16:32 GMT
Fact: Last quarter's GDP growth was 2.7%.
Opinion: I believe GDP growth for next quarter will be 3%
Fact: The man was killed by remote tribes people.
Opinion: "Only his body was killed. He was not killed."
Fact: The man has many ideas in his head. Opinion: The ideas only exist in one's ego and so they are not real.
If people learn to distinguish between facts and opinions and stop passing on opinions as facts then communication will be much better.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Nov 22, 2018 13:36:58 GMT
Fact: Last quarter's GDP growth was 2.7%.
Opinion: I believe GDP growth for next quarter will be 3%
Well the fact and opinion on this one would depend on which country you are in. |
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 22, 2018 13:47:54 GMT
Fact: Last quarter's GDP growth was 2.7%.
Opinion: I believe GDP growth for next quarter will be 3%
Well the fact and opinion on this one would depend on which country you are in. Sure. But the important thing is that fact is a thing that is known or proven (whichever agency measures the growth has already stated that 2.7% was last quarters GDP). One can of course give opinion that he believes that the agency which measured GDP growth of 2.7% for last quarter was incorrect and that the actual GDP growth for previous quarter was 2.1%.
Opinion is your subjective belief regarding what is likely to happen. One could say she believes GDP growth rate would be 50% in her estimate and she won't be wrong as crazy as she might be. But one can't pass of her opinion as a fact. For example if one says "my investment product had 15% returns last year so it will give 15% this year too" then it will be considered misrepresentation because the person is passing off her opinion for a fact. |
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Post by Catman on Nov 22, 2018 13:55:37 GMT
It is sad when people keep complaining that you haven't refuted their opinions.
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fatpaul
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Post by fatpaul on Nov 23, 2018 13:33:55 GMT
I don’t know why you’ve pointed out philosophers in your title which to me, implies that philosophers, as well as religious people, cannot distinguish between fact and opinion. Indeed is was a Philosopher named David Hume, in his Treatise of Human Nature, that brought to attention that we seem to have descriptions(fact) and prescriptions (value/opinion) and that there is no deductive method in which to connect prescriptions to descriptions. This is known as Humes’ Law (or Guillotine). For example:
Marijuana is illegal
Therefore, Marijuana should stay illegal.
The first premise is descriptive and fact (an is) but the second premise is prescriptive (an ought) and does not follow from the first premise because only an is can follow an is and we cannot get an is from an ought.
One answer to this fact/value gap is that inductive reasoning may bridge the gap but this is not completely satisfactory. I think it is difficult to separate opinion from fact and you may be surprised how far and few facts really are.
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 23, 2018 15:44:00 GMT
I don’t know why you’ve pointed out philosophers in your title which to me, implies that philosophers, as well as religious people, cannot distinguish between fact and opinion. Indeed is was a Philosopher named David Hume, in his Treatise of Human Nature, that brought to attention that we seem to have descriptions(fact) and prescriptions (value/opinion) and that there is no deductive method in which to connect prescriptions to descriptions. This is known as Humes’ Law (or Guillotine). For example: Marijuana is illegal
Therefore, Marijuana should stay illegal.The first premise is descriptive and fact (an is) but the second premise is prescriptive (an ought) and does not follow from the first premise because only an is can follow an is and we cannot get an is from an ought. One answer to this fact/value gap is that inductive reasoning may bridge the gap but this is not completely satisfactory. I think it is difficult to separate opinion from fact and you may be surprised how far and few facts really are. Intended to use philosophical for people who believe they are being philosophical but at the same time commit the error. Would also apply to non-theists as well. |
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fatpaul
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Post by fatpaul on Nov 23, 2018 16:42:15 GMT
Intended to use philosophical for people who believe they are being philosophical but at the same time commit the error. Would also apply to non-theists as well. Fair enough, I agree in principle with you. Just thought I'd give some historical background to your point. |
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Lugh
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Post by Lugh on Nov 24, 2018 23:17:59 GMT
whats the difference to you? You've only given examples.
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 25, 2018 1:16:01 GMT
Fact: Last quarter's GDP growth was 2.7%.
Opinion: I believe GDP growth for next quarter will be 3%
Fact: The man was killed by remote tribes people.
Opinion: "Only his body was killed. He was not killed."
Fact: The man has many ideas in his head. Opinion: The ideas only exist in one's ego and so they are not real.
If people learn to distinguish between facts and opinions and stop passing on opinions as facts then communication will be much better.
Fact or opinion, they are all still born of mind. Is that fact or opinion? Opinion. |
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 25, 2018 1:38:03 GMT
So the mind doesn't create what we perceive as facts or opinions then. If not the mind, where do these facts and\or opinions come from?Y I am not read in philosphy of mind so I am not going to answer your philosophical questions. What I like to point out is that you may hold on to an opinion strongly but that doesn't mean they become facts. Also, You are talking in terms of philosophy. Most people in the world do not talk in terms of philosophy. The world is considered real. You may strongly believe otherwise but that would still be your opinion. Whether you live or die or sleep or not exist, earth will be a planet of solar system till some outside force displaces it. Whether you or anyone has mind to perceive that or not. Thus, saying that earth is a planet of solar system is a fact. Saying that earth is born out of mind is an opinion. |
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 25, 2018 1:49:30 GMT
I am not read in philosphy of mind so I am not going to answer your philosophical questions. What I like to point out is that you may hold on to an opinion strongly but that doesn't mean they become facts. Also, You are talking in terms of philosophy. Most people in the world do not talk in terms of philosophy. The world is considered real. You may strongly believe otherwise but that would still be your opinion. Whether you live or die or sleep or not exist, earth will be a planet of solar system till some outside force displaces it. Whether you or anyone has mind to perceive that or not. Thus, saying that earth is a planet of solar system is a fact. How do you prove something is real, if one isn't aware of it? Once again, why are you debating philosophical stuffs with me? I do not have a problem with your opinions. It's just that I do like to differentiate between opinion and fact. They are different words and refer to different things. USA's GDP was greater than GDP of Australia in 2017. It is a fact. Whether you are aware of it or not it remains a fact. Even in 2518 it will be a fact that USA's GDP was greater than Australia's. The historical records will prove that to those who look at historical record.
I see that you feel strongly about this "everything is born out of mind" thing. Well, I have no problems with your opinion. I am just saying that fact and opinion are different thing. Opinions are not incorrect. Just that they could be less well formed or more well formed.
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 25, 2018 4:52:02 GMT
Once again, why are you debating philosophical stuffs with me? I do not have a problem with your opinions. It's just that I do like to differentiate between opinion and fact. They are different words and refer to different things. USA's GDP was greater than GDP of Australia in 2017. It is a fact. Whether you are aware of it or not it remains a fact. Even in 2518 it will be a fact that USA's GDP was greater than Australia's. The historical records will prove that to those who look at historical record.
I see that you feel strongly about this "everything is born out of mind" thing. Well, I have no problems with your opinion. I am just saying that fact and opinion are different thing. Opinions are not incorrect. Just that they could be less well formed or more well formed.
I think a better title for this thread would be....Learn to find an equilibrium between delusion and logic religious people and atheists
If you don't have an issue with my opinions, why are you asking me not to debate philosophical stuff with you? This is your topic Aj on a discussion\debate forum. You can't have you cake and eat it too, by attempting to throw your own opinion around as though it is the only fact. That is not how it works and is also arrogant.
And NO, any differences that are perceived are still born of mind. Facts are born out of opinions and opinions are born out of facts and they are NOT mutually exclusive. Even your GDP example, is still only an illusion or even delusion of mind. It is not real, only what is perceived as real. For those not invested in GDP, it is meaningless. Anything and Nothing is only real to the witnesser and what is seemingly real, is really unreal. You cannot possibly fathom a world of existence still being around if you are not the one to witness it.
Because i am discussing about differences between facts and opinions as is generally acknowledged by all culture/people. While you are discussing about deep philosophical matters.
and I am talking about things as we do in our day to day life and you are reverting to core philosophy.
No, GDP stats are not delusions for me. Sure, you are welcome to hold your opinion. As a person in finance industry stats are absolutely real to me. But the problem with you is that my calling an opinion an opinion seems to make you think it is a slight on you. It is not. You could well be right! I am happy that you have interest in philosophy but most of us simple people just carry on our lives thinking like simple people. We are not concerned about what is delusion or how you get over it. We want to earn money and sustain ourselves/our families. That I am not willing to continue discussing philosophy with you is not because I consider your opinion wrong. It's simply that I have no understanding of philosophy nor capacity to discuss the issue of mind/ego etc. etc. I am totally blank on the subject. I am just a simple man and can't talk about complex things.
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 25, 2018 5:17:04 GMT
Because i am discussing about differences between facts and opinions as is generally acknowledged by all culture/people. While you are discussing about deep philosophical matters.
and I am talking about things as we do in our day to day life and you are reverting to core philosophy.
No, GDP stats are not delusions for me. Sure, you are welcome to hold your opinion. As a person in finance industry stats are absolutely real to me. But the problem with you is that my calling an opinion an opinion seems to make you think it is a slight on you. It is not. You could well be right! I am happy that you have interest in philosophy but most of us simple people just carry on our lives thinking like simple people. We are not concerned about what is delusion or how you get over it. We want to earn money and sustain ourselves/our families. That I am not willing to continue discussing philosophy with you is not because I consider your opinion wrong. It's simply that I have no understanding of philosophy nor capacity to discuss the issue of mind/ego etc. etc. I am totally blank on the subject. I am just a simple man and can't talk about complex things.
Argue for your limitations Aj and you can keep them.
I still don't know what your argument is for the difference between facts and opinions.
And I detect a lack of insincerity here, because if anything, the world of finance is anything but simple and deliberately complicates and intellectualizes things beyond all realm of rationale. Your facts, are only born of your own mindset of opinions.
The world of finance may be complex for you but because I was naturally good at mathematics I don't find it complex. That doesn't mean I will have same ability in the subject area of philosophy too. A human being has his plus points and disadvantages. In Indian society where I was born you are almost socially forced to study maths/science. You can hold your opinion that I am being insincere but my opinion is that I am being honest in not trying to discuss things on a topic which I do not understand. It will be insincere of me to claim to accept something that I have no knowledge about. Quite frankly I find it difficult to accept that we live in unreal world. We live in the real world. But that doesn't mean I believe you are being wrong in saying things that you say. That's why in any debate of philosophy or mind/ego I abstain from discussion or make simple statements. |
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 25, 2018 5:57:47 GMT
The world of finance may be complex for you but because I was naturally good at mathematics I don't find it complex. That doesn't mean I will have same ability in the subject area of philosophy too. A human being has his plus points and disadvantages. In Indian society where I was born you are almost socially forced to study maths/science. You can hold your opinion that I am being insincere but my opinion is that I am being honest in not trying to discuss things on a topic which I do not understand. It will be insincere of me to claim to accept something that I have no knowledge about. Quite frankly I find it difficult to accept that we live in unreal world. We live real world. But that doesn't mean I believe you are being wrong in saying things you say. That's why in any debate of philsophy or mind/ego I abstain from discussion or make simple statements. I do not understand mathematics, physics, chemistry, or even the great philosophers. I however, do not underestimate the importance of them, or undermine the importance of what is mind and what it creates.
What atheists do, is throw walls of logic at what they perceive as finite and you, being good at math, should also understand the infinite. Pi π is forever, due to its constant. The space is not just contained within the circle, but is amassed outside it as well. Inner and outer space and that makes up the whole equation and where does the outer end? Can you not connect this to your own relationship of being and consciousness. It all works in with each other.
I often find academically intelligent people often get too caught up in their own headspace of logic, create barriers and can only think in terms of solid mass and what is only perceived as solid realness. The world has many textures. Surly you understand that this journey and everything in it is impermanent. That is what death is. You just refuse to look deeper. So please don't attempt to tell others what fact is, when you really have no idea yourself.
I am telling what fact is as is believed in general sense. Whether I tell you or not the generally accepted meaning of the word will not change. You can hold opinion that fact is born out of mind or whatever. I am not contesting that statement or agreeing with that. You could be true. I sure have no knowledge of that. But all the generally available definitions of words are meant for day to day practical world. Just because you are more capable of discussing finer philosophical points of an issue the general meaning of the word will not change. For that matter I have no problem if you believe that generally accepted meaning of the word fact is incorrect. You are welcome to hold that opinion. |
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Post by Aj_June on Nov 25, 2018 6:14:11 GMT
I am telling what fact is as is believed in general sense. Whether I tell you or not the generally accepted meaning of the word will not change. You can hold opinion that fact is born out of mind or whatever. I am not contesting that statement or agreeing with that. You could be true. I sure have no knowledge of that. But all the generally available definitions of words are meant for day to day practical world. Just because you are more capable of discussing finer philosophical points of an issue the general meaning of the word will not change. For that matter I have no problem if you believe that generally accepted meaning of the word fact is incorrect. You are welcome to hold that opinion. And you are missing the essence of my post because?W I have no idea. Your post was some complain about atheists and academically intelligent people. I believe you said they make things more complex than is needed. That's your opinion and you can hold that. You then claimed I refuse to look deeper. I am fine with all of that. Not necessarily agree with those points. As for my refusal to look at things deeply. Yes, that's true. I have many things to do in life that give me more entertainment than thinking that the things in the world are not real. People maximize their pleasure. I have no obligation to look at things deeply. May be there will be a time I will look at things deeply. That time has not come yet. |
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