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Post by Cody™ on Dec 3, 2018 15:25:38 GMT
Many atheists love to trot out this statement.
But doesn’t the overwhelming majority of people in the world claim a supernatural God exists? Surely that would make it by definition an ordinary claim. Meaning those making the claim that God doesn’t exist the ones making the extraordinary claim, no?
Logic.
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Post by Aj_June on Dec 3, 2018 15:32:07 GMT
But doesn’t the overwhelming majority of people in the world claim a supernatural God exists? Surely that would make it by definition an ordinary claim.
Relative amount of support for a belief (claim) doesn't make something ordinary or extraordinary. It's the amount of evidence that one cites for a belief that makes a claim ordinary or extraordinary (later if the evidence given in not good enough). Many people claim that God exists. No one has been able to show the existence of Krishna or Yahweh or Amitabha or Tara and so and so. That's why those claims are extraordinary. There isn't any direct evidence for existence of any God. It's a matter of either belief or personal experiences. Belief is not the same as proof and personal experiences are not shared by others.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 3, 2018 15:36:01 GMT
Um no, that's just makes it an argument ad populum fallacy (an idea is popular, therefore it must be true). A huge amount of people used to think the sun was God, does that make it an "ordinary" claim. You want more modern examples? The vast majority of Middle Easterners believe Mohammed is a prophet, vast majority of Indians believe in Ganesha the elephant god, does that make their claims "ordinary' and you denying them makes it an extraordinary claim?
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Post by thefleetsin on Dec 3, 2018 15:36:01 GMT
the overwhelming majority also believe that aliens regularly visit the planet to rectally probe certain chosen individuals.
which may explain the spike in trailer parks/poverty level living.
everyone has to have a dream. and what better imaginings than attaching oneself to a supreme all-judgmental spirit entity father figure.
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Post by Isapop on Dec 3, 2018 16:55:18 GMT
Many atheists love to trot out this statement. But doesn’t the overwhelming majority of people in the world claim a supernatural God exists? Surely that would make it by definition an ordinary claim. Meaning those making the claim that God doesn’t exist the ones making the extraordinary claim, no? Logic. Not a bad point; claiming that God exists is, in that sense, an ordinary claim, but your point is more about a choice of words rather than the idea expressed. Suppose an atheist said the much less catchy, "Supernatural claims require extraordinary evidence". Saying that would concede to your objection to using the word "extraordinary", but maintain the integrity of the point that is being made.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 16:59:09 GMT
Many atheists love to trot out this statement. But doesn’t the overwhelming majority of people in the world claim a supernatural God exists? Surely that would make it by definition an ordinary claim. Meaning those making the claim that God doesn’t exist the ones making the extraordinary claim, no? Logic. Not even 1/3 of the entire population is Christian, therefore those making the claim that the Christian god is the only one that exists are the ones making the extraordinary claim, no? Logic. You may now proceed with moving the goalpost.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 6, 2018 11:55:08 GMT
Many atheists love to trot out this statement. But doesn’t the overwhelming majority of people in the world claim a supernatural God exists? Surely that would make it by definition an ordinary claim. Meaning those making the claim that God doesn’t exist the ones making the extraordinary claim, no? Logic. Not even 1/3 of the entire population is Christian, therefore those making the claim that the Christian god is the only one that exists are the ones making the extraordinary claim, no? Logic. You may now proceed with moving the goalpost. Straw man. I made it perfectly clear in the OP I was referring generally to a supernatural God. That covers Christians. Muslims, Jews and Hindus who make up the vast majority of the world’s population. Your anti-Christ attitude is racing to the surface again. BTW Muslims believe they worship the same God as Christians and Jews. That’s over 4billion people right there. The majority.
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Post by Winter_King on Dec 6, 2018 12:08:53 GMT
Where is the ordinary evidence that God exists?
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Post by theauxphou on Dec 6, 2018 13:39:21 GMT
Millions, even billions, of people believing something is not evidence of that thing.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 6, 2018 14:39:16 GMT
Where is the ordinary evidence that God exists? Logic.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 15:12:19 GMT
Not even 1/3 of the entire population is Christian, therefore those making the claim that the Christian god is the only one that exists are the ones making the extraordinary claim, no? Logic. You may now proceed with moving the goalpost. Straw man. I'm certain now you don't understand the concept of the word Indeed, in I used your exact same 'logic' and made it 'perfectly clear' I was referring to the Christian god. Explain how my logic is flawed... and you will explain how your logic is flawed. Muslims and Jews worship Jesus, and believe he is the father, son, and holy ghost? Yeah, no.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 6, 2018 16:01:53 GMT
I'm certain now you don't understand the concept of the word Indeed, in I used your exact same 'logic' and made it 'perfectly clear' I was referring to the Christian god. Explain how my logic is flawed... and you will explain how your logic is flawed. Muslims and Jews worship Jesus, and believe he is the father, son, and holy ghost?Yeah, no. Neither does any Christian.
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 6, 2018 16:31:38 GMT
Many atheists love to trot out this statement. But doesn’t the overwhelming majority of people in the world claim a supernatural God exists? Surely that would make it by definition an ordinary claim. Meaning those making the claim that God doesn’t exist the ones making the extraordinary claim, no? Logic. False (on almost every count). The fact that most people claim this is ordinary, because it is common and can be demonstrated to be true with a preponderance of evidence supporting it. For example, if you claim that you believe in god, THAT claim is ordinary because millions of other people believe in God. If you claim that millions of other people believe in God, that too is ordinary because millions of people have always believed in a god of some sort throughout all human civilizations. I accept at face value that millions of other people believe in God because there is good evidence for that and I also used to believe in God. Believing in God is mundane and not unusual. But the claim in question is not that the overwhelming majority of people “believe in a God”. The actual claim in question is that a god exists (a supernatural concept with the biggest possible implications for all of humanity) which is an extraordinary claim irrespective of how many people make it, because nobody has ever been able to demonstrate this god before, or anything else supernatural. This is called argumentum ad populum (appeal to the people), a fallacy that asserts that the likelihood of a claim being true is impacted by how many people claim that it’s true. The claim itself remains extrodinary because the truth of the claim is in no way impacted by how many people believe in it. And even though many people make this claim, no one has ever actually demonstrated the truth of the claim before. If you tell me that you have a pet dog, I can accept that claim at face value, because it is a rather mundane claim. Dogs are common and a lot of people have them. And the implications of you having one are very small as far as my life is concerned. If you tell me that you have a pet Grizzly bear, I’m going to be a significantly more skeptical about that since I’ve never heard of anyone keeping a grizzly bear as a pet, and it seems extremely dangerous and impractical that someone might have one. And the implications of you having a pet grizzly bear are more significant (both to you and possibly to me as well). Doesn’t mean it’s impossible; there is such a thing as a grizzly bear, and people do sometimes keep strange pets. But I’m still probably not just going to accept that at face value. If 10 other people told me that you have a pet grizzly bear, I’d definitely be more open to consider the claim true, but still wouldn’t be fully convinced until I actually saw it. And if 10 other people tell me they have a pet grizzly bear, I’m no more convinced that they actually have one as I was when it was just you telling me that you had one. If you told me that you had a pet fire-breathing dragon that’s invisible, I don’t believe you. Even if a hundred other people tell me that they’ve seen it and confirm your story...I still don’t believe you. Because as far as I know, there is no such thing as fire-breathing dragons, and it’s ability to remain invisible is a very convenient way of avoiding having to reveal it. And the implications of someone having a creature like that are huge! Is it possible that someone has a pet fire-breathing dragon that’s invisible? I don’t know. I suspect not, but even if it were possible, I’m not going to believe it until I have extraordinary evidence. The problem with your analogy (among the many) is that it implies that claims in and of themselves count as evidence. They don’t! Claims are just that...”claims”. And claims from other people’s accounts (hearsay) does not even count as mundane evidence, which is why it’s not admissible in court. Any claim that is neither testable nor falsifiable remains extraordinary irrespective of how many people make it. Finally, your last statement is a shifting of the burden of proof because most atheists (or anyone in general) who argues that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence are not claiming that a god does not exist. They may be rejecting the claim that he does exist, OR they may even accept that he exists in the absence of extraordinary evidence. Christians after all largely agree that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Which is why they believe it on the basis of “faith” rather than evidence. You don’t need evidence if you’re willing to take something on faith!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 16:48:27 GMT
I'm certain now you don't understand the concept of the word Indeed, in I used your exact same 'logic' and made it 'perfectly clear' I was referring to the Christian god. Explain how my logic is flawed... and you will explain how your logic is flawed. Muslims and Jews worship Jesus, and believe he is the father, son, and holy ghost?Yeah, no. Neither does any Christian. Christians don't worship Jesus? Okaaay... and your inability to negate my(your) 'logic' is noted.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 6, 2018 16:59:22 GMT
Neither does any Christian. Christians don't worship Jesus? Okaaay... and your inability to negate my(your) 'logic' is noted. No Christians do not believe Jesus is the father, son and Holy Spirit.
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Post by Cody™ on Dec 6, 2018 16:59:54 GMT
Many atheists love to trot out this statement. But doesn’t the overwhelming majority of people in the world claim a supernatural God exists? Surely that would make it by definition an ordinary claim. Meaning those making the claim that God doesn’t exist the ones making the extraordinary claim, no? Logic. False (on almost every count). The fact that most people claim this is ordinary, because it is common and can be demonstrated to be true with a preponderance of evidence supporting it. For example, if you claim that you believe in god, THAT claim is ordinary because millions of other people believe in God. If you claim that millions of other people believe in God, that too is ordinary because millions of people have always believed in a god of some sort throughout all human civilizations. I accept at face value that millions of other people believe in God because there is good evidence for that and I also used to believe in God. Believing in God is mundane and not unusual. But the claim in question is not that the overwhelming majority of people “believe in a God”. The actual claim in question is that a god exists (a supernatural concept with the biggest possible implications for all of humanity) which is an extraordinary claim irrespective of how many people make it, because nobody has ever been able to demonstrate this god before, or anything else supernatural. This is called argumentum ad populum (appeal to the people), a fallacy that asserts that the likelihood of a claim being true is impacted by how many people claim that it’s true. The claim itself remains extrodinary because the truth of the claim is in no way impacted by how many people believe in it. And even though many people make this claim, no one has ever actually demonstrated the truth of the claim before. If you tell me that you have a pet dog, I can accept that claim at face value, because it is a rather mundane claim. Dogs are common and a lot of people have them. And the implications of you having one are very small as far as my life is concerned. If you tell me that you have a pet Grizzly bear, I’m going to be a significantly more skeptical about that since I’ve never heard of anyone keeping a grizzly bear as a pet, and it seems extremely dangerous and impractical that someone might have one. And the implications of you having a pet grizzly bear are more significant (both to you and possibly to me as well). Doesn’t mean it’s impossible; there is such a thing as a grizzly bear, and people do sometimes keep strange pets. But I’m still probably not just going to accept that at face value. If 10 other people told me that you have a pet grizzly bear, I’d definitely be more open to consider the claim true, but still wouldn’t be fully convinced until I actually saw it. And if 10 other people tell me they have a pet grizzly bear, I’m no more convinced that they actually have one as I was when it was just you telling me that you had one. If you told me that you had a pet fire-breathing dragon that’s invisible, I don’t believe you. Even if a hundred other people tell me that they’ve seen it and confirm your story...I still don’t believe you. Because as far as I know, there is no such thing as fire-breathing dragons, and it’s ability to remain invisible is a very convenient way of avoiding having to reveal it. And the implications of someone having a creature like that are huge! Is it possible that someone has a pet fire-breathing dragon that’s invisible? I don’t know. I suspect not, but even if it were possible, I’m not going to believe it until I have extraordinary evidence. The problem with your analogy (among the many) is that it implies that claims in and of themselves count as evidence. They don’t! Claims are just that...”claims”. And claims from other people’s accounts (hearsay) does not even count as mundane evidence, which is why it’s not admissible in court. Any claim that is neither testable nor falsifiable remains extraordinary irrespective of how many people make it. Finally, your last statement is a shifting of the burden of proof because most atheists (or anyone in general) who argues that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence are not claiming that a god does not exist. They may be rejecting the claim that he does exist, OR they may even accept that he exists in the absence of extraordinary evidence. Christians after all largely agree that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Which is why they believe it on the basis of “faith” rather than evidence. You don’t need evidence if you’re willing to take something on faith! LOL
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Post by goz on Dec 6, 2018 20:38:46 GMT
subtitle:
he got me!
I have no answer to this post.
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Post by progressiveelement on Dec 6, 2018 22:17:01 GMT
I see several people on Facebook think every photo in space is fake, Earth is flat, chemtrails, shapechanging aircraft....
They must be right.👍
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Post by thefleetsin on Dec 6, 2018 22:56:20 GMT
handing down sacks full of homogenized horse manure paraded around like beams of light doesn't make it smell any sweeter.
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Post by maya55555 on Dec 6, 2018 23:01:01 GMT
feetsin
Oh. so you have been there.
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