Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Dec 5, 2018 14:07:08 GMT
Jews, Muslims, and Christians have the same god (sort of) and the same Ten Commandments, but have completely different understandings of what the commandment about the sabbath means. Genesis 2:2-3 One interpretation of why Christians observe the sabbath day of rest on a different day of the week than Jews is that the early Church hated anything Jewish so much that they needed to make it absolutely crystal clear that how Christians worshiped needed to be different than how Jews worshiped. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Sabbath_daySo nowadays, Christians in their understanding of the sabbath run the gamut from Seventh-Day adventists, who see the sabbath commandment as essential to their religion and who observe it on the same day as Jews; to Catholics, who, in practice, place a higher priority for communal worship on the 8th day (Sunday), representing the day of the resurrection of Christ, rather than on the Hebrew God's sabbath day of rest (Saturday); to Protestants, many of whom have believed that the sabbath commandment does not apply to them, as it was meant "for the Jews" and/or "was fulfilled by Jesus' sacrifice." (And that's not even getting into all the Christians who feel it's just fine to go shopping and do all manner of other ungodly things on their day of sabbath observance.)
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Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Dec 5, 2018 14:07:27 GMT
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 5, 2018 14:18:36 GMT
The better question is, what does keeping the Sabbath "Holy" actually mean? Most people interpret it as a day of rest, not necessarily as a day of worship. In any case observing Sabbath is not a Christian practice. Some denominations (like Seventh Day Adventists) still hold to the requirement of observing Sabbath, but most Christian denominations do not because there is no Christian requirement to observe the Sabbath in scripture (Jesus worked on Sabbath). Christians worship on Sunday because Jesus is said to have rose from the dead on Easter Sunday. That's how Sunday became associated as the Lord's day.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 5, 2018 14:25:05 GMT
There is no Sabbath observance obligation for Christians.
Various denominations can do what they like.
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Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Dec 5, 2018 14:27:29 GMT
what does keeping the Sabbath "Holy" actually mean? Exodus 20:8-11 No work. Just acting in a godly manner and worshiping God.
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Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Dec 5, 2018 14:28:51 GMT
there is no Christian requirement to observe the Sabbath in scripture (Jesus worked on Sabbath). What happened to the sabbath commandment of Exodus 20?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 5, 2018 14:31:37 GMT
there is no Christian requirement to observe the Sabbath in scripture (Jesus worked on Sabbath). What happened to the sabbath commandment of Exodus 20? Jews still follow it since that’s who the command was given to. Jesus did not work in the Sabbath. He was accused of working in the Sabbath and he schooled his accusers concerning it.
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 5, 2018 14:55:41 GMT
what does keeping the Sabbath "Holy" actually mean? Exodus 20:8-11 No work. Just acting in a godly manner and worshiping God. Your conclusion is not even consistent with the passage you quoted. It says in relation to the sabbath: "you shall no do any work". That's the only supplemental information we get as part of that commandment. It doesn't say anything about worshiping or acting in a godly manner (as it would be distinguished from any other day). The only thing according to the commandment that distinguishes Sabbath is doing no work. And since Saturday is a day off for most people, the majority of Christians are observing the Sabbath anyway, whether intentional or not. Worship for Christians is discussed by Jesus in Matthew 6. And there is nothing about the Sabbath in those instructions. We also know that Jesus himself broke the Sabbath several times, indicating that he didn't view it as an important commandment.
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 5, 2018 14:59:30 GMT
there is no Christian requirement to observe the Sabbath in scripture (Jesus worked on Sabbath). What happened to the sabbath commandment of Exodus 20? All of the Ten Commandments (including the requirement for the Sabbath) applied only to the Jews, as they were given to the Israelites and not to the Gentiles. The commandments were part of Jewish law (Mosaic law) that applied only within the Old Covenant. Since that covenant was broken and replaced with a new one (according to the bible), those laws are no longer binding. Paul even goes a step further in implying that nobody can keep the law, therefore no one can be justified by observing the law. The fact that Jesus himself broke that law, and explained to his disciples why the religious leaders trying to observe the "letter of the law" rather than the "intent of the law" were ultimately stupid and missing the point altogether.
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Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Dec 5, 2018 16:02:23 GMT
Your conclusion is not even consistent with the passage you quoted. It says in relation to the sabbath: "you shall no do any work". That's the only supplemental information we get as part of that commandment. It doesn't say anything about worshiping or acting in a godly manner (as it would be distinguished from any other day). Setting aside a day to be recognized as God's day means that people are meant to be especially sure to behave in ways that God would approve of (ie, to act in a godly manner) on that day. It also means worshiping God, not doing something that makes other people have to work (eg shoppping for stuff that could easily be bought on a different day). The only thing according to the commandment that distinguishes Sabbath is doing no work. And since Saturday is a day off for most people, the majority of Christians are observing the Sabbath anyway, whether intentional or not. Most of those Christians are not mindful of the fact that that day is supposed to be treated as God's day. It's also noteworthy that getting two days off work does not apply to all Christians around the world, even in predominantly Christian countries. And in those societies where it does apply, it's a relatively very recent practice, relative to how old Christianity is--dating back only a century or two. We also know that Jesus himself broke the Sabbath several times, indicating that he didn't view it as an important commandment. Jesus broke the sabbath by doing what? And in what scriptures was that described?
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Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Dec 5, 2018 16:44:15 GMT
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Post by lowtacks86 on Dec 5, 2018 18:37:13 GMT
There's only one Sabbath I keep holy:
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 5, 2018 20:52:40 GMT
Your conclusion is not even consistent with the passage you quoted. It says in relation to the sabbath: "you shall no do any work". That's the only supplemental information we get as part of that commandment. It doesn't say anything about worshiping or acting in a godly manner (as it would be distinguished from any other day). Setting aside a day to be recognized as God's day means that people are meant to be especially sure to behave in ways that God would approve of (ie, to act in a godly manner) on that day. It also means worshiping God, not doing something that makes other people have to work (eg shoppping for stuff that could easily be bought on a different day). That's what it means...TO YOU. And that's a perfectly fine interpretation if that's what you choose to believe. All I'm saying is, that is something you decided yourself. It's not actually supported by the text you just cited. The only thing it actually says as part of the instruction is to do no work. Everything else is something you added to the text. Most of those Christians are not mindful of the fact that that day is supposed to be treated as God's day. And there's a good reason for that. Nothing in the actual scriptures indicates that they should. Again, the only thing it actually says as part of the instruction is to do no work. Everything else is something you added to the text. It's also noteworthy that getting two days off work does not apply to all Christians around the world, even in predominantly Christian countries. And in those societies where it does apply, it's a relatively very recent practice, relative to how old Christianity is--dating back only a century or two. I don't see how that is particularly noteworthy, but okay. Jesus broke the sabbath by doing what? And in what scriptures was that described? Mark 2:23-2823 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”Christ acknowledges breaking the law, and even defends the action by comparing his action with other people who broke the law.
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 5, 2018 20:57:56 GMT
Most traditions of Christianity hold that the Ten Commandments have divine authority and continue to be valid, though they have different interpretations and uses of them. Most Christians are also following the script that they've been fed by their parents and clergy. But if you actually asked Christians (outside of the Seventh Day Adventist church) "are Christians under the old law", or "are Christians obliged to observe the Sabbath", most would say "no" to both of those questions, and vigorously defend each of those positions using the scripture. Hell, I can easily defend those positions and I'm an atheist, lol.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Dec 5, 2018 21:53:27 GMT
Only gooners with nothing new to say say that Christians follow parents scripts.
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Eλευθερί
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@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Dec 5, 2018 22:55:18 GMT
Jesus broke the sabbath by doing what? And in what scriptures was that described? Mark 2:23-2823 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”Christ acknowledges breaking the law, and even defends the action by comparing his action with other people who broke the law. First, Jesus "broke the law" as interpreted by the Pharisees. Their judgment was shown to not inspire any confidence later in the story. Second, the complaint was that Jesus defended people who were gathering food because they were hungry. (I'm not sure whether the issue was that they were stealing the food and/or that they were gathering it rather than doing something the fanatics would have considered to have been more worshipful. But that distinction isn't really the point here.) In Jesus' understanding of the commandment, doing something to help people in need is precisely the kind of behavior that God intended by the commandment to keep the sabbath holy. Under that interpretation, what Jesus was doing was perfectly consistent with the commandment. Now, had Jesus been, say, selling snacks for profit to people who were perfectly well-fed but just wanted a treat as a diversion, he would have been disobeying the commandment. Similarly, if he had been making a servant of his, or a worker under his command, do some unnecessary task that could easily have been put off until the following day, then Jesus would have been violating the commandment. Third, Jesus is God. So even if Jesus did violate a commandment (something which you have not shown), that does not give anyone who is not God license to also violate commandments.
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Post by captainbryce on Dec 6, 2018 3:21:57 GMT
Mark 2:23-2823 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?” 25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”Christ acknowledges breaking the law, and even defends the action by comparing his action with other people who broke the law. First, Jesus "broke the law" as interpreted by the Pharisees. Their judgment was shown to not inspire any confidence later in the story. Second, the complaint was that Jesus defended people who were gathering food because they were hungry. (I'm not sure whether the issue was that they were stealing the food and/or that they were gathering it rather than doing something the fanatics would have considered to have been more worshipful. But that distinction isn't really the point here.) In Jesus' understanding of the commandment, doing something to help people in need is precisely the kind of behavior that God intended by the commandment to keep the sabbath holy. Under that interpretation, what Jesus was doing was perfectly consistent with the commandment. Now, had Jesus been, say, selling snacks for profit to people who were perfectly well-fed but just wanted a treat as a diversion, he would have been disobeying the commandment. Similarly, if he had been making a servant of his, or a worker under his command, do some unnecessary task that could easily have been put off until the following day, then Jesus would have been violating the commandment. Third, Jesus is God. So even if Jesus did violate a commandment (something which you have not shown), that does not give anyone who is not God license to also violate commandments. Wow, you that one wrapped up in a nice little bow. Every possible defense lined up just in case one fails. “There’s been no collusion whatsoever; the whole thing is a witch hunt!” ...“But if there was collusion, that’s not a crime!” ...“But if it turns out to be a crime, it was only people loosely connected to the president!” ...“Okay, maybe Mueller might have something on the President after all”
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