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Post by ProjectError on Apr 1, 2017 1:03:56 GMT
There are certain independent fundamental Baptist preachers who believe that one can reach a point of engaging in acts so vile and filthy that they are "given up" by God, and considered reprobates, no longer eligible for salvation and repentance.
One pastor who discusses is Steven Anderson. Whether you disagree with him, he does bring up good points from a Biblical perspective. He uses actual verses that back up his interpretations.
In sum, he states that while humans are always tempted to sin, there is another level beyond sin which normal humans are not tempted to do. At this level, he says, humans begin do things like animals. For example, a dog will vomit and eat his own vomit. A normal human, even the perpetual sinner, will be disgusted by eating vomit. A normal human won't go around sniffing stranger's butts, or smearing feces on their face. These are behaviors, according to him, normal humans find disgusting, and aren't "sins" that people are tempted to do and require will power to abstain from. Humans may be tempted to steal cash or lust after another woman, which are normal sinful temptations, but are not tempted to eat fecal matter and vomit, find children attractive, and other behaviors Christians and nonChristians alike find vile.
At this level, he says, when humans begin to engage in these vile behaviors, God has "removed" his protective coating, which is what gave us the instinct to find these behaviors disgusting, and has "given them up" to their own desires. At this point, they cannot be forgiven for their sins, they are permanently reprobate, and can no longer repent.
The kicker: He lumps in homosexuality with these vile behaviors. He considers homosexuals to be given up by God, the equivalent to a feces eater, child molester, having sex with animals. He uses Romans 1-26 as basis which also lumps in homosexuality with these other behaviors.
To disagree with him (as Christian) one would at least have to say there's parts of the Bible that aren't necessarily true. Because this is coming from it, in literal word.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 1, 2017 1:24:34 GMT
This is incorrect.
I can easily reject that notion without besmirching the Bible at all.
The only mention of ones who are unforgivable are ones who sin against the Holy Spirit and that's a tough crowd to break into. You practically have to work at it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 1:56:46 GMT
Not if he is remotely rational, let alone benevolent. God, if such exists, moulded us into what we are; sins and all.
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Post by ProjectError on Apr 1, 2017 4:00:19 GMT
This is incorrect. I can easily reject that notion without besmirching the Bible at all. The only mention of ones who are unforgivable are ones who sin against the Holy Spirit and that's a tough crowd to break into. You practically have to work at it. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. |
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Post by thefleetsin on Apr 1, 2017 4:07:46 GMT
remember when swallowing the kool-aid to lick the rim of the glass.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 1, 2017 4:15:23 GMT
ProjectErrorAre you asking a different question than what you're asking? Wicked people dying is not the same thing as wicked people not being forgivable. They can repent and choose not to as opposed to wanting to repent and God not accepting it which I thought was what you were discussing since that's what you said. Since we are apparently playing a semantics game, I will also admit that once judgement is rendered it would be too late to repent, but again that is not what seemed to be discussed.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Apr 1, 2017 5:04:30 GMT
Where else would you like him to lump it?
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Post by phludowin on Apr 1, 2017 11:13:38 GMT
I did not watch the video. But I am pretty sure that the Bible does not prohibit eating feces or sniffing at other butts. And the word "homosexuality" was not used by Bible authors either.
So it is possible to say this preacher is wrong, without claiming the Bible is wrong (the truthfulness of the Bible, or lack of, is not the subject of this thread).
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dawglf
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Post by dawglf on Apr 2, 2017 18:11:51 GMT
There are certain independent fundamental Baptist preachers who believe that one can reach a point of engaging in acts so vile and filthy that they are "given up" by God, and considered reprobates, no longer eligible for salvation and repentance. One pastor who discusses is Steven Anderson. Whether you disagree with him, he does bring up good points from a Biblical perspective. He uses actual verses that back up his interpretations. In sum, he states that while humans are always tempted to sin, there is another level beyond sin which normal humans are not tempted to do. At this level, he says, humans begin do things like animals. For example, a dog will vomit and eat his own vomit. A normal human, even the perpetual sinner, will be disgusted by eating vomit. A normal human won't go around sniffing stranger's butts, or smearing feces on their face. These are behaviors, according to him, normal humans find disgusting, and aren't "sins" that people are tempted to do and require will power to abstain from. Humans may be tempted to steal cash or lust after another woman, which are normal sinful temptations, but are not tempted to eat fecal matter and vomit, find children attractive, and other behaviors Christians and nonChristians alike find vile. At this level, he says, when humans begin to engage in these vile behaviors, God has "removed" his protective coating, which is what gave us the instinct to find these behaviors disgusting, and has "given them up" to their own desires. At this point, they cannot be forgiven for their sins, they are permanently reprobate, and can no longer repent. The kicker: He lumps in homosexuality with these vile behaviors. He considers homosexuals to be given up by God, the equivalent to a feces eater, child molester, having sex with animals. He uses Romans 1-26 as basis which also lumps in homosexuality with these other behaviors. To disagree with him (as Christian) one would at least have to say there's parts of the Bible that aren't necessarily true. Because this is coming from it, in literal word. what is being taught in this section is that God will not step in and make a person do His will. If a person honestly wants to tell God to "shove it"; God has no choice but to turn the person over to that which he/she wants to practice so badly in their life. |
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Post by goz on Apr 3, 2017 4:36:40 GMT
Where else would you like him to lump it? It very much depends on whether your God is a bigot, like you or not! Seeing as how the OP (and you) would see God as the creator of everything, hence the creator of homosexuals, he would have to be pretty hypocritical to be bigoted against his own creation, don't you think? |
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dodge4life
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Post by dodge4life on Sept 10, 2019 3:14:09 GMT
No sin of beneath being forgiven.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 10, 2019 21:39:52 GMT
Just another of the great, incontrovertible realities of Xtianity: the conundrum of the god who both is and isn't all-forgiving.
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Post by theauxphou on Sept 10, 2019 22:00:18 GMT
I believe anything made-up can do anything it wants.
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Post by gadreel on Sept 11, 2019 2:06:34 GMT
I happen to believe in a loving forgiving God, so no, there is no sin that God would not allow us repentance from.
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Post by mslo79 on Sept 11, 2019 7:12:09 GMT
I think it's partially true in the sense God knows whether someone will ultimately reject Him or not and eventually once someone crosses a certain point their wills become more fixed in evil etc and He basically can turn them loose to their sins/destruction. so while it's not strictly true that God would never forgive someone, as He will ALWAYS forgive someone who's truly sorry for their sins, some people just reject Him as they prefer their sin and evil ways over Him who's good. also, I have heard that sometimes for someone who's ultimately going to end up in hell, God could end up letting them die early as a act of mercy because had they lived longer they would have become more vile and went even lower into hell which would have further increased their eternal suffering. but I do think the general article has a good point in that after a certain point some people, like some of those drug cartel types of people, embrace evil as some of the stuff they do to people is just beyond any normal measure of typically bad evil like murdering someone, which looks merciful by comparison to their level of evil. but it makes no sense for someone to reject God because He's their ONLY way to eternal happiness as without Him, all hope/good ceases to exist. they just can't feel the full effect of that in this life as even someone who's in mortal sin destined for hell (assuming they don't repent before death here on earth) can still experience temporal pleasure here on earth but once they pass from here to the next world, all good ceases to exist for someone who ends up in hell as nothing but hate/misery exists for that person as any trace of good is completely gone. hell is by far the worst thing that can possibly happen to someone because of the extreme suffering that never lessens for a instant. goz Based on the Christian God (i.e. Father/Son(Jesus Christ)/Holy Spirit)), which is the only God that exists... humans have a fallen nature after Adam/Eve sinned. so now we are inclined towards sin as some stuff is appealing to us even though it's actually bad. so we can either accept what God says and reject sinful stuff (which is even more crucial in serious sin stuff like the subject here since only serious sins can land one in hell as venial sin only wounds ones relationship with God where as mortal sin destroys it) or reject Him and do it anyways as we all have free will as God won't force someone to obey His commandments etc otherwise it would not be a act of love for Him on our part if He forced us to do what He says. but after a certain point it's unlikely someone will turn back to God as the their wills become more hardened in evil/sin as they prefer their sin over what's actually good. so knowing this... what you said does not hold up (this is not a dis on you, I just said that so you can see how things are). basically those with same sex attraction, it's pretty much a cross for them to bear in not giving into those sinful thoughts/urges (it would actually be a great act of love for them on their part towards God in rejecting their urges which I realize won't be easy to do since the sexual urge is probably our most powerful urge). I realize this is not want they want to hear, but it's just the way it is. but it can be done through regular prayer as they won't be able to resist sin on their own (as Jesus Christ said, "without Me you can do nothing"), but with God's help (which His grace is gotten through prayer and the Sacraments etc) they can do it. amyghost He is all forgiving but one must repent as you can't just continue to live a life of sin (primarily serious sin) and not repent otherwise you basically choose to reject God by your choices/actions and prefer evil over good. because if everyone can just pretty much do whatever they want and make it to Heaven, short of say murder like some seem to think(but they are mistaken), there is no need to repent and it does not work that way. all sins we commit will be atoned for either in this life, through suffering or charitable acts towards others etc, or in the next (in Purgatory) before eventually reaching Heaven. but this assumes one does not end up in hell as those in hell there is no hope as it's extreme suffering for eternity. gadreel Your technically correct. but... some people reject God and their wills become hardened in sin and they ultimately choose evil over good. so it's really more of them rejecting God, than God rejecting them. because God does not want anyone to end up in hell but people do it to themselves by rejecting His commandments etc.
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Post by Cody™ on Sept 11, 2019 10:56:06 GMT
Yes, it’s biblical.
“Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.”
ROMANS 1:28
“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.” When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them. Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.””
JOHN 12:36-40
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.”
HEBREWS 6:4-8
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Post by Cody™ on Sept 11, 2019 11:02:46 GMT
I happen to believe in a loving forgiving God, so no, there is no sin that God would not allow us repentance from. Do you even read your bible, bro? “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.””MARK 3:28-29 |
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Post by amyghost on Sept 11, 2019 11:59:18 GMT
mslo79:"He is all forgiving but one must repent as you can't just continue to live a life of sin (primarily serious sin) and not repent otherwise you basically choose to reject God by your choices/actions and prefer evil over good.
because if everyone can just pretty much do whatever they want and make it to Heaven, short of say murder like some seem to think(but they are mistaken), there is no need to repent and it does not work that way. all sins we commit will be atoned for either in this life, through suffering or charitable acts towards others etc, or in the next (in Purgatory) before eventually reaching Heaven. but this assumes one does not end up in hell as those in hell there is no hope as it's extreme suffering for eternity."The bible nor the various branches of Xtianity are of any help on this score, as all give varying views on god's forgiveness of sin. In Catholicism (and indeed some Protestant religions), one can indeed do 'pretty much what one wants' and end up in heaven, provided they invoke the name of Jesus and undergo a few ritual motions by a priest or clergyman when they're at the point of death. That would hardly seem like much in the way of atonement for a lifetime of brutal acts, but it's a popular get out of jail free card for the faithful, no matter how much they may natter on about the importance of living a 'right' life. The bible itself is, of course, infamous for offering up almost as many different interpretations of god's forgiveness as there are books in it. Jesus' interpretation of that forgiveness is quite different from the OT stances on it. As for salvation by worldly acts, the division is even sharper: Protestant sects differing hugely on what, and in what degree, a mixture of repentance, proper life, good deeds and faith alone will net you your heavenly reward. Again, the Catholics are pretty straightforward in saying that good works in this world don't really matter a hoot if your act isn't straight with Jesus just before you check out. Purgatory as a concept does not exist anywhere in the bible, OT or NT. It's purely an invention of the Catholic faith, coming yet again from their pretty free, and Paulist-inspired, 'interpretations' of the words of Jesus, so discussion of it is not to the point here. As for hell, once more, all we see is a spectrum of division of thought clerically-speaking, as to what constitutes hell, duration of punishment in it, or in fact if it even exists.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 11, 2019 12:03:49 GMT
mslo79:He is all forgiving but one must repent as you can't just continue to live a life of sin (primarily serious sin) and not repent otherwise you basically choose to reject God by your choices/actions and prefer evil over good.
because if everyone can just pretty much do whatever they want and make it to Heaven, short of say murder like some seem to think(but they are mistaken), there is no need to repent and it does not work that way. all sins we commit will be atoned for either in this life, through suffering or charitable acts towards others etc, or in the next (in Purgatory) before eventually reaching Heaven. but this assumes one does not end up in hell as those in hell there is no hope as it's extreme suffering for eternity.The bible nor the various branches of Xtianity are no help on this score, as all give varying views on god's forgiveness of sin. In Catholicism (and indeed some Protestant religions), one can do 'pretty much what one wants' and end up in heaven, provided they invoke the name of Jesus and undergo a few ritual motions by a priest or clergyman when they're at the point of death. That woul hardly seem like much in the way of atonement for a lifetime of brutal acts, but it's a popular get out of jail free card for the faithful, no matter how much they may natter on about the importance of living a 'right' life. The bible itself is, of course, infamous for offering up almost as many different interpretations of god's forgiveness as there are books in it. Jesus' interpretation of that forgiveness is quite different from the OT stances on it. As for salvation by worldly acts, the division is even sharper: Protestant sects differing hugely on what, and in what degree, a mixture of repentance, proper life, good deeds and faith alone will net you your heavenly reward. Again, the Catholics are pretty straightforward in saying that good works in this world don't really matter a hoot if your act isn't straight with Jesus just before you check out. Purgatory as a concept does not exist anywhere in the bible, OT or NT. It's purely an invention of the Catholic faith, coming yet again from their pretty free, and Paulist-inspired, 'interpretations' of the words of Jesus, so discussion of it is not to the point here. As for hell, once more, all we see is a spectrum of division of thought clerically-speaking, as to what constitutes hell, duration of punishment in it, or in fact if it even exists. The Sumerian, Greek, and Roman religions have an equivalent to Purgatory. Are you out to debunk these as well?
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Post by thefleetsin on Sept 11, 2019 15:00:00 GMT
it would be the greatest single thing to ever happen to them. (if there actually were a god)
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