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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 23, 2019 20:00:15 GMT
So, I've started reading the Quran and the first Surah states: * Not a direct copy of the translation from my English version of the Quran, but a copy/paste from an online version found here: Surah 1. The OpeningSo, it seems that this opening Surah makes it clear that God is: - Most Gracious
- Most Merciful
And, in addition to all that, he can show us the straight way, which presumably is the way to heaven and deeper communion with him. From the last verse, it appears that the 'straight way' can only be bestowed on those whose portion is not wrath. Now, right off the bat, this sounds pretty hippie-dippy-ish, and conflicts with the history of Islamic conquest in the middle ages (as perceived from a Western viewpoint), and the more recent history of Islamic fundamentalism and all the terrorism, oppression, and conflict that comes with it. One would assume that if Allah is supposed to be gracious and merciful and if his true follows lack wrath, then violence should be absent in Islam. That's a simplistic viewpoint, I know, but these foundations are laid out in the religion's most important text in the very opening chapters. Seems hard to ignore. Has anyone else read the Quran or studied Islam more thoroughly and would like to provide some more insight into these seeming contradiction between a merciful God whose follows lack wrath, and the extremist Islamic fundamentalist scene (for lack of a better word) that exists today? Any ideas as to if this contradiction has always been inherent in the faith, or if there was some turning point in history that brought about these actions. Thanks.
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The Quran
Jan 23, 2019 20:22:08 GMT
via mobile
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 23, 2019 20:22:08 GMT
Being gracious and merciful can usually include eventual death and destruction that’s even without the context of religion.
Christianity treats it a different way since there isn’t supposed to be a human military component.
But being merciful and gracious could be as simple as delaying the time someone deserves to die in order to give them a way out of that death sentence.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 23, 2019 21:27:22 GMT
Being gracious and merciful can usually include eventual death and destruction that’s even without the context of religion. … But being merciful and gracious could be as simple as delaying the time someone deserves to die in order to give them a way out of that death sentence. I don't think that that these qualities would be true of a being who is most gracious and merciful. Since Allah is the superlative of all things in grace and mercy, one would assume that his grace and mercy is never-ending. Or at least, that's the way I understand it. Of course, since Allah is the creator of all things, I suppose he can determine the ultimate limit of grace and mercy even if he is the most gracious and merciful. You make a good point here. Islam, from its beginning, was a political/expansionist movement as well as a religion. Military campaigns have certainly been waged in the name of Christ, but it is harder to square those with the New Testaments message than it is for an Islamic fundamentalist. However, I would think that the last part of the Surah wherein it describes the follower of Allah as one who lacks wrath would cover that.
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The Quran
Jan 23, 2019 22:02:51 GMT
via mobile
Post by Cody™ on Jan 23, 2019 22:02:51 GMT
So, I've started reading the Quran and the first Surah states: * Not a direct copy of the translation from my English version of the Quran, but a copy/paste from an online version found here: Surah 1. The OpeningSo, it seems that this opening Surah makes it clear that God is: - Most Gracious
- Most Merciful
And, in addition to all that, he can show us the straight way, which presumably is the way to heaven and deeper communion with him. From the last verse, it appears that the 'straight way' can only be bestowed on those whose portion is not wrath. Now, right off the bat, this sounds pretty hippie-dippy-ish, and conflicts with the history of Islamic conquest in the middle ages (as perceived from a Western viewpoint), and the more recent history of Islamic fundamentalism and all the terrorism, oppression, and conflict that comes with it. One would assume that if Allah is supposed to be gracious and merciful and if his true follows lack wrath, then violence should be absent in Islam. That's a simplistic viewpoint, I know, but these foundations are laid out in the religion's most important text in the very opening chapters. Seems hard to ignore. Has anyone else read the Quran or studied Islam more thoroughly and would like to provide some more insight into these seeming contradiction between a merciful God whose follows lack wrath, and the extremist Islamic fundamentalist scene (for lack of a better word) that exists today? Any ideas as to if this contradiction has always been inherent in the faith, or if there was some turning point in history that brought about these actions. Thanks. Worst. Book. Ever.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 23, 2019 22:12:18 GMT
How come? I know you're not muslim, so I know you don't hold it as sacred, but are you saying there is nothing of value in it? Do you believe that violent Islamic fundamentalism is rooted within teachings of the Quran or is the result of outside influences that have co-opted the Quran in their message?
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Post by thefleetsin on Jan 23, 2019 22:39:24 GMT
those words are the words of cowering supplicants to an imagined spirit father.
next.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 23, 2019 22:44:29 GMT
those words are the words of cowering supplicants to an imagined spirit father. next. I believe you meant to say: those words are the words of cowering supplicants to an imagined spirit father next. All joking aside, don't you think it is strange that the supplicants should cower in the first place? Allah is most gracious and merciful. MOST. By those definitions, I think it should be understood that Allah will forgive transgressions if one is sincere about it. Why should fear factor into any of it? One would think that joy and love would fill the hearts of the supplicants, not fear. Allah is merciful and gracious beyond human understanding...what is to fear in that?
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Post by thefleetsin on Jan 23, 2019 22:53:01 GMT
those words are the words of cowering supplicants to an imagined spirit father. next. I believe you meant to say: those words are the words of cowering supplicants to an imagined spirit father next. All joking aside, don't you think it is strange that the supplicants should cower in the first place? Allah is most gracious and merciful. MOST. By those definitions, I think it should be understood that Allah will forgive transgressions if one is sincere about it. Why should fear factor into any of it? One would think that joy and love would fill the hearts of the supplicants, not fear. Allah is merciful and gracious beyond human understanding...what is to fear in that? oh there's no joking going on here. for the VAST majority of peoples on the planet approach religion(s) from some sort of fear-based inquiry. whether it be fear of death, fear of losing out on some immortal prize, etc. all gods incorporate eventual ramifications for naughtiness played outside the confines of their divine sandboxes. and of course these sandboxes are littered with so much buried waste material from centuries of religions shyting on humanity that i'm surprised there's any sand left at all. no joking implied. but i almost giggled.
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Post by goz on Jan 24, 2019 1:04:49 GMT
Goz being simplistic. Is it a bad thing to be thus?
I don't see much difference between Christianity and Islam.
Because I believe that religion is a sociological mechanism devised to have power ( political via spiritual) I see the agenda as essentially the same.
To me the difference are purely historical.
Christianity has taken a different course which included the Reformation, the Enlightenment and an evolution of religious historical economic and political thought, based mainly in Europe.
Islam has been slower to evolve, of late, being mainly based in the Middle East with some 'Golden Ages' of 'enlightenment through science mathematics philosophy and architectural brilliance ( some of it in Western Europe Spain Portugal et al) quashed by geography of distance, Christianity and a return to fundamentalism in the latter half of the second millennium.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 24, 2019 5:26:01 GMT
I don't see much difference between Christianity and Islam. Because I believe that religion is a sociological mechanism devised to have power ( political via spiritual) I see the agenda as essentially the same. To me the difference are purely historical. Well, if you view religion as a power dynamic, then I guess you can lump any religion together. In practice though, I think Christianity and Islam are very different from one another.
Agreed for the most part. Are you familiar with the Quran? Do you believe that the modern day Islamic fundamentalism can be traced directly back to the Quran and Mohammad, or do you think that it has more influence in later movements/events in the history of Islam and Islamic thought?
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,672
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 24, 2019 7:41:32 GMT
Are you familiar with the Quran? Do you believe that the modern day Islamic fundamentalism can be traced directly back to the Quran and Mohammad, or do you think that it has more influence in later movements/events in the history of Islam and Islamic thought? I know this was addressed to Goz, but to throw in my tuppence worth, I think most religious texts will have passages that can be used to justify violence and hatred as well as passages that would seem to argue the opposite. I think people pick out the passages that suit their inclination and either ignore those that go against it or at least find some creative interpretation that makes it seem that the contradictory passages agree. As regards Islamic extremism, the evidence seems to suggest its proponents are motivated primarily by socio-political factors which they then try to justify by appealing to the Quran, rather than the Quran being the ultimate cause.
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Post by Cody™ on Jan 24, 2019 9:08:36 GMT
I don't see much difference between Christianity and Islam. Because I believe that religion is a sociological mechanism devised to have power ( political via spiritual) I see the agenda as essentially the same. To me the difference are purely historical. Well, if you view religion as a power dynamic, then I guess you can lump any religion together. In practice though, I think Christianity and Islam are very different from one another.
Agreed for the most part. Are you familiar with the Quran? Do you believe that the modern day Islamic fundamentalism can be traced directly back to the Quran and Mohammad, or do you think that it has more influence in later movements/events in the history of Islam and Islamic thought?
When you have time check this YouTube video series about Islam/ISIS. It’s made by an ex-muslim now atheist.
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Post by Cody™ on Jan 24, 2019 9:12:07 GMT
Are you familiar with the Quran? Do you believe that the modern day Islamic fundamentalism can be traced directly back to the Quran and Mohammad, or do you think that it has more influence in later movements/events in the history of Islam and Islamic thought? I know this was addressed to Goz, but to throw in my tuppence worth, I think most religious texts will have passages that can be used to justify violence and hatred as well as passages that would seem to argue the opposite. I think people pick out the passages that suit their inclination and either ignore those that go against it or at least find some creative interpretation that makes it seem that the contradictory passages agree. As regards Islamic extremism, the evidence seems to suggest its proponents are motivated primarily by socio-political factors which they then try to justify by appealing to the Quran, rather than the Quran being the ultimate cause. Spoken like a typical brainwashed liberal westerner who has not spent even an hour investigating Islam and the correlation with terrorist extremism.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 24, 2019 16:35:03 GMT
I know this was addressed to Goz, but to throw in my tuppence worth, I think most religious texts will have passages that can be used to justify violence and hatred as well as passages that would seem to argue the opposite. I think people pick out the passages that suit their inclination and either ignore those that go against it or at least find some creative interpretation that makes it seem that the contradictory passages agree. As regards Islamic extremism, the evidence seems to suggest its proponents are motivated primarily by socio-political factors which they then try to justify by appealing to the Quran, rather than the Quran being the ultimate cause. I agree with the first part. It's just so strange to me that in the very first part of the Quran...the first fucking passage...it says that Allah is most merciful and gracious and that his followers do not possess wrath. Those are qualities that certainly don't fit with Islamic Fundamentalists in their actions and what seems to be their conception of Allah. If this were hidden somewhere in the middle of the text or were less direct, then maybe one could more easily ignore it. But it's right at the very beginning, almost like it's the thesis of the whole book. In regards to your second paragraph, I recall reading somewhere that much of modern day fundamentalist Islam can be traced back to the rise of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia throughout the 20th century. Other than its existence, I know very little about it.
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Jan 24, 2019 17:24:18 GMT
Islam is the only big religion that is demonstrably false. I can’t prove that God does not exist or that God didn’t create the entire universe, or that Jesus wasn’t a divine being sent here to redeem us of our sins, but I can very easily demonstrate that the Quran was NOT dictated or inspired by any god or god-like being.
- The Quran is supposed to be God’s final and perfect message to mankind. - The Quran makes repeated references to the Arab calendar, with very specific and quite important instructions revolving around it. - The Arab calendar is completely wrong – so wrong as to be useless for anything other than the observation of religious holidays. - It is inconceivable that the Supreme Creator of the Universe would not know how long the earth actually takes to complete one revolution around the sun, or that He would think that the moon cycle is more important than the sun cycle. - Therefore the Quran was not written, dictated or even inspired by any divine being, and Mohammed was nothing more than a conman who made up a preposterous story in order to achieve power and wealth (or possibly a madman).
QED
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 24, 2019 17:54:39 GMT
Islam is the only big religion that is demonstrably false. I can’t prove that God does not exist or that God didn’t create the entire universe, or that Jesus wasn’t a divine being sent here to redeem us of our sins, but I can very easily demonstrate that the Quran was NOT dictated or inspired by any god or god-like being. - The Quran is supposed to be God’s final and perfect message to mankind. - The Quran makes repeated references to the Arab calendar, with very specific and quite important instructions revolving around it. - The Arab calendar is completely wrong – so wrong as to be useless for anything other than the observation of religious holidays. - It is inconceivable that the Supreme Creator of the Universe would not know how long the earth actually takes to complete one revolution around the sun, or that He would think that the moon cycle is more important than the sun cycle. - Therefore the Quran was not written, dictated or even inspired by any divine being, and Mohammed was nothing more than a conman who made up a preposterous story in order to achieve power and wealth (or possibly a madman). QED I don't think anyone outside of a Muslim believes the Quran is correct when it comes to describing the physical world. I'm wondering how such a direct message about the superlative graciousness and mercy of Allah can be squared with Islamic Fundamentalisms' seeming death-god. To your last point, I do certainly believe that Mohammad was a madman.
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Post by Aj_June on May 16, 2019 22:36:31 GMT
yougotastewgoinbabyDid you read a few chapters? How was your experience of reading the Quran and how would you contrast it with the Bible?
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Post by mslo79 on May 17, 2019 6:29:02 GMT
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Post by Morgana on May 19, 2019 10:46:07 GMT
So, I've started reading the Quran and the first Surah states: * Not a direct copy of the translation from my English version of the Quran, but a copy/paste from an online version found here: Surah 1. The OpeningSo, it seems that this opening Surah makes it clear that God is: - Most Gracious
- Most Merciful
And, in addition to all that, he can show us the straight way, which presumably is the way to heaven and deeper communion with him. From the last verse, it appears that the 'straight way' can only be bestowed on those whose portion is not wrath. Now, right off the bat, this sounds pretty hippie-dippy-ish, and conflicts with the history of Islamic conquest in the middle ages (as perceived from a Western viewpoint), and the more recent history of Islamic fundamentalism and all the terrorism, oppression, and conflict that comes with it. One would assume that if Allah is supposed to be gracious and merciful and if his true follows lack wrath, then violence should be absent in Islam. That's a simplistic viewpoint, I know, but these foundations are laid out in the religion's most important text in the very opening chapters. Seems hard to ignore. Has anyone else read the Quran or studied Islam more thoroughly and would like to provide some more insight into these seeming contradiction between a merciful God whose follows lack wrath, and the extremist Islamic fundamentalist scene (for lack of a better word) that exists today? Any ideas as to if this contradiction has always been inherent in the faith, or if there was some turning point in history that brought about these actions. Thanks. Remember those words are read by, and are for, Muslims. So to some Muslims violence against Kuffar (non-believers/non-Muslims) is allowed in some instances, for example to subjugate a place and convert the inhabitants, such as was done in the Middle ages. The extremist groups that commit most of the violence these days are fringe groups outside of the Muslim norm.
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Post by Zos on May 19, 2019 15:25:41 GMT
So, I've started reading the Quran and the first Surah states: * Not a direct copy of the translation from my English version of the Quran, but a copy/paste from an online version found here: Surah 1. The OpeningSo, it seems that this opening Surah makes it clear that God is: - Most Gracious
- Most Merciful
And, in addition to all that, he can show us the straight way, which presumably is the way to heaven and deeper communion with him. From the last verse, it appears that the 'straight way' can only be bestowed on those whose portion is not wrath. Now, right off the bat, this sounds pretty hippie-dippy-ish, and conflicts with the history of Islamic conquest in the middle ages (as perceived from a Western viewpoint), and the more recent history of Islamic fundamentalism and all the terrorism, oppression, and conflict that comes with it. One would assume that if Allah is supposed to be gracious and merciful and if his true follows lack wrath, then violence should be absent in Islam. That's a simplistic viewpoint, I know, but these foundations are laid out in the religion's most important text in the very opening chapters. Seems hard to ignore. Has anyone else read the Quran or studied Islam more thoroughly and would like to provide some more insight into these seeming contradiction between a merciful God whose follows lack wrath, and the extremist Islamic fundamentalist scene (for lack of a better word) that exists today? Any ideas as to if this contradiction has always been inherent in the faith, or if there was some turning point in history that brought about these actions. Thanks. What about the contradictions between the wrathful God of the OT and the hippy God of the NT?, hardly unique to one religion.
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