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Post by darkpast on Feb 28, 2019 20:26:58 GMT
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Post by Skaathar on Feb 28, 2019 20:36:43 GMT
"An army of easily-triggered fanboys who don't like girls in their clubhouse cannot stop the inevitable"
That's some pretty fallacious and harmful stereotyping right there.
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Post by kleinreturns on Feb 28, 2019 20:49:53 GMT
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 1, 2019 3:38:02 GMT
But I thought Brie Larson told everyone to stay home?!
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 1, 2019 4:04:32 GMT
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Post by merh on Mar 1, 2019 11:08:46 GMT
"An army of easily-triggered fanboys who don't like girls in their clubhouse cannot stop the inevitable" That's some pretty fallacious and harmful stereotyping right there. I have overheard some pretty preposterous stuff over the years from dudes in the fantasy fandom. Geeks are pretty opinionated. Sometimes it has been very amusing Sometimes just sadly pathetic.
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Post by merh on Mar 1, 2019 11:10:52 GMT
I will be surprised if it does that. I think $100 mill would be about it. But now we all really need to pull for it, just to make this guy eat shit, don't we?
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 1, 2019 15:05:50 GMT
"An army of easily-triggered fanboys who don't like girls in their clubhouse cannot stop the inevitable" That's some pretty fallacious and harmful stereotyping right there. I have overheard some pretty preposterous stuff over the years from dudes in the fantasy fandom. Geeks are pretty opinionated. Sometimes it has been very amusing Sometimes just sadly pathetic. Oh I agree. Geeks and nerds can definitely be toxic. Still, I just don't like condescending generalizations like the one above. As I already mentioned in a different thread, majority of the complaints about this issue has nothing to do with Brie being "a girl". |
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Post by merh on Mar 1, 2019 15:20:06 GMT
I have overheard some pretty preposterous stuff over the years from dudes in the fantasy fandom. Geeks are pretty opinionated. Sometimes it has been very amusing Sometimes just sadly pathetic. Oh I agree. Geeks and nerds can definitely be toxic. Still, I just don't like condescending generalizations like the one above. As I already mentioned in a different thread, majority of the complaints about this issue has nothing to do with Brie being "a girl". One of my bones to pick with superhero comics is gals are often scantily clad or in inappropriate dress. You get Cap head to toe in leather & chainmail, Thor in leather & armor, but gals in spandex? Come on. You have to admit in many ways comics through the 80s have been made as male fantasies. Guys they want to be & gals they want to bed, right. They might have improved after I stopped buying comics, but overall they were designed to tantalize to sell copy. As the mom of a teen girl, I noticed how manga was designed about 1/3 of the titles to appeal to girls while western comics remained focused on the male audience. I sat in a Comicon International panel where the company stated this, that conventional wisdom was teen girls bought clothes & makeup while boys were the ones who bought DC & Marvel comics so after years of cannibalizing the audience from one another, the early 00s saw manga enter the market & actually sell to females. And the males in the audience did not believe it. Because girls don't buy comics.
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Post by politicidal on Mar 1, 2019 15:21:40 GMT
Oh I agree. Geeks and nerds can definitely be toxic. Still, I just don't like condescending generalizations like the one above. As I already mentioned in a different thread, majority of the complaints about this issue has nothing to do with Brie being "a girl". One of my bones to pick with superhero comics is gals are often scantily clad or in inappropriate dress. You get Cap head to toe in leather & chainmail, Thor in leather & armor, but gals in spandex? Come on. You have to admit in many ways comics through the 80s have been made as male fantasies. Guys they want to be & gals they want to bed, right. They might have improved after I stopped buying comics, but overall they were designed to tantalize to sell copy. As the mom of a teen girl, I noticed how manga was designed about 1/3 of the titles to appeal to girls while western comics remained focused on the male audience. I sat in a Comicon International panel where the company stated this, that conventional wisdom was teen girls bought clothes & makeup while boys were the ones who bought DC & Marvel comics so after years of cannibalizing the audience from one another, the early 00s saw manga enter the market & actually sell to females. And the males in the audience did not believe it. Because girls don't buy comics. They ought to get out more.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 1, 2019 17:15:42 GMT
Oh I agree. Geeks and nerds can definitely be toxic. Still, I just don't like condescending generalizations like the one above. As I already mentioned in a different thread, majority of the complaints about this issue has nothing to do with Brie being "a girl". One of my bones to pick with superhero comics is gals are often scantily clad or in inappropriate dress. You get Cap head to toe in leather & chainmail, Thor in leather & armor, but gals in spandex? Come on.
You have to admit in many ways comics through the 80s have been made as male fantasies. Guys they want to be & gals they want to bed, right. They might have improved after I stopped buying comics, but overall they were designed to tantalize to sell copy.As the mom of a teen girl, I noticed how manga was designed about 1/3 of the titles to appeal to girls while western comics remained focused on the male audience. I sat in a Comicon International panel where the company stated this, that conventional wisdom was teen girls bought clothes & makeup while boys were the ones who bought DC & Marvel comics so after years of cannibalizing the audience from one another, the early 00s saw manga enter the market & actually sell to females. And the males in the audience did not believe it. Because girls don't buy comics. So what? Oh, and pullleeease...
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 1, 2019 17:42:15 GMT
Oh I agree. Geeks and nerds can definitely be toxic. Still, I just don't like condescending generalizations like the one above. As I already mentioned in a different thread, majority of the complaints about this issue has nothing to do with Brie being "a girl". One of my bones to pick with superhero comics is gals are often scantily clad or in inappropriate dress. You get Cap head to toe in leather & chainmail, Thor in leather & armor, but gals in spandex?
Come on. You have to admit in many ways comics through the 80s have been made as male fantasies. Guys they want to be & gals they want to bed, right. They might have improved after I stopped buying comics, but overall they were designed to tantalize to sell copy. As the mom of a teen girl, I noticed how manga was designed about 1/3 of the titles to appeal to girls while western comics remained focused on the male audience. I sat in a Comicon International panel where the company stated this, that conventional wisdom was teen girls bought clothes & makeup while boys were the ones who bought DC & Marvel comics so after years of cannibalizing the audience from one another, the early 00s saw manga enter the market & actually sell to females. And the males in the audience did not believe it. Because girls don't buy comics. I don't know, head to toe in leather and chainmail sounds pretty kinky to me. Seriously though, I look back on the comic book costumes of the era I was reading (80s) and I chuckle a bit. What's stranger to me is that I never really noticed as a kid. The women had funky costumes, but I still respected the characters because they were written so well. I surely would've had a different opinion if I were around in the 60s and the female characters were all clueless or openly trying to impress the male characters. But by the time the 80s came around, the women's movement had reached comics and I didn't even notice there was a difference between how the men and women were depicted (in terms of garb or characterization). Wasp was leader of the Avengers and I never questioned it. Some of the more outlandish costumes were just that, costumes. In the scope of hyperactive surrealism in comic books, wacky costumes were par for the course. Scarlet Witch was dressed like a stripper because hey, she's weird. Namor fought in a speedo because hey, the dude lives underwater. I agree with your general take about who they were marketing to in the old days (and who was creating these characters, for that matter), I'm just saying that the costumes were at least half the fun in superhero comics, and I never found any of them particularly degrading-- even if they simply were not functional if you spent 5 seconds thinking about it. Looking back on it, I'm sure as an adolescent I got a kick out of Ms. Marvel's stripper costume or She-Hulk's bathing suit costume, but Wasp was covered head to toe IIRC and Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau) showed pretty much no skin other than her face, and those were all among some of my personal favorite characters. They definitely weren't aggressively marketing to girls in those days but that doesn't mean women were there strictly as eye candy by that point. (Then things went to hell in a handbasket in the 90s, but that's all of comics in general, not just depictions of women.) There's a great book on this topic I read years ago called The Supergirls. It's a fun little history of women in superhero comics, I highly recommend it.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 1, 2019 17:44:30 GMT
Oh I agree. Geeks and nerds can definitely be toxic. Still, I just don't like condescending generalizations like the one above. As I already mentioned in a different thread, majority of the complaints about this issue has nothing to do with Brie being "a girl". One of my bones to pick with superhero comics is gals are often scantily clad or in inappropriate dress. You get Cap head to toe in leather & chainmail, Thor in leather & armor, but gals in spandex? Come on. You have to admit in many ways comics through the 80s have been made as male fantasies. Guys they want to be & gals they want to bed, right. They might have improved after I stopped buying comics, but overall they were designed to tantalize to sell copy. As the mom of a teen girl, I noticed how manga was designed about 1/3 of the titles to appeal to girls while western comics remained focused on the male audience. I sat in a Comicon International panel where the company stated this, that conventional wisdom was teen girls bought clothes & makeup while boys were the ones who bought DC & Marvel comics so after years of cannibalizing the audience from one another, the early 00s saw manga enter the market & actually sell to females. And the males in the audience did not believe it. Because girls don't buy comics. Um, ok? I'm not sure how the clothing of superheroes is related to the complaints against Brie but I'll bite. Majority of superheroes both male and female ARE clothed in spandex, especially in the earlier days. Captain America was originally clothed in spandex, it wasn't till much recently that he changed. Still, majority of all comic characters have tight fitting spandex costumes that showcase every single bulge in their anatomy. And while I agree that there are more male characters with sensible attire (Thor, Ghost Rider, Ironman, etc.), I'd like to point out that the most scantily clad comic characters are ALSO men (Namor, Hercules, Conan, etc.). So no, female characters don't have a monopoly on being scantily clad. Fact is, comics glorify the human form. They exaggeratedly draw comic characters to showcase them in the most attractive light possible, and this is true for both men and women. Female characters are drawn with body proportions that would be just as impossible to achieve naturally as the men's ridiculously muscled physiques. Why do you think actors like Hemsworth and Cavill still need to wear muscle suits just to keep up with their character's appearances? In fact, one could make a case that being encased in heavy armor and still having your muscles outlined and bulging from under it is a more ridiculous form of physical objectification. As for manga, some of the most sexually suggestive clothing and exaggerated anatomy I've ever seen on a comic was from manga.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 1, 2019 17:53:46 GMT
One of my bones to pick with superhero comics is gals are often scantily clad or in inappropriate dress. You get Cap head to toe in leather & chainmail, Thor in leather & armor, but gals in spandex? Come on. You have to admit in many ways comics through the 80s have been made as male fantasies. Guys they want to be & gals they want to bed, right. They might have improved after I stopped buying comics, but overall they were designed to tantalize to sell copy. As the mom of a teen girl, I noticed how manga was designed about 1/3 of the titles to appeal to girls while western comics remained focused on the male audience. I sat in a Comicon International panel where the company stated this, that conventional wisdom was teen girls bought clothes & makeup while boys were the ones who bought DC & Marvel comics so after years of cannibalizing the audience from one another, the early 00s saw manga enter the market & actually sell to females. And the males in the audience did not believe it. Because girls don't buy comics. Um, ok? I'm not sure how the clothing of superheroes is related to the complaints against Brie but I'll bite. Majority of superheroes both male and female ARE clothed in spandex, especially in the earlier days. Captain America was originally clothed in spandex, it wasn't till much recently that he changed. Still, majority of all comic characters have tight fitting spandex costumes that showcase every single bulge in their anatomy. And while I agree that there are more male characters with sensible attire (Thor, Ghost Rider, Ironman, etc.), I'd like to point out that the most scantily clad comic characters are ALSO men (Namor, Hercules, Conan, etc.). So no, female characters don't have a monopoly on being scantily clad. Fact is, comics glorify the human form. They exaggeratedly draw comic characters to showcase them in the most attractive light possible, and this is true for both men and women. Female characters are drawn with body proportions that would be just as impossible to achieve naturally as the men's ridiculously muscled physiques. Why do you think actors like Hemsworth and Cavill still need to wear muscle suits just to keep up with their character's appearances? As for manga, some of the most sexually suggestive clothing and exaggerated anatomy I've ever seen on a comic was from manga. This is the bottom line here. Not only are these characters supposed to be idealized human beings (which includes their body dimensions), they're also fun to draw. Why else is learning to draw the human form a fundamental of art? It's the same reason they invented shrinking and growing characters, because it's fun to contrast the human form against itself at different sizes. I'm not saying merh doesn't have a point, I just think there's more to it than simple male chauvinism when it comes to comics.
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Post by charzhino on Mar 1, 2019 17:57:41 GMT
Not just comics its happening in games now. The new mortal kombat is getting some criticism for toning down on the women fighters appearances, covering them up more, hiding skin, reducing bust size and overall sex appeal.
Tomb raider massively reduced the proportions of Laura Croft
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 1, 2019 18:12:51 GMT
Um, ok? I'm not sure how the clothing of superheroes is related to the complaints against Brie but I'll bite. Majority of superheroes both male and female ARE clothed in spandex, especially in the earlier days. Captain America was originally clothed in spandex, it wasn't till much recently that he changed. Still, majority of all comic characters have tight fitting spandex costumes that showcase every single bulge in their anatomy. And while I agree that there are more male characters with sensible attire (Thor, Ghost Rider, Ironman, etc.), I'd like to point out that the most scantily clad comic characters are ALSO men (Namor, Hercules, Conan, etc.). So no, female characters don't have a monopoly on being scantily clad. Fact is, comics glorify the human form. They exaggeratedly draw comic characters to showcase them in the most attractive light possible, and this is true for both men and women. Female characters are drawn with body proportions that would be just as impossible to achieve naturally as the men's ridiculously muscled physiques. Why do you think actors like Hemsworth and Cavill still need to wear muscle suits just to keep up with their character's appearances? As for manga, some of the most sexually suggestive clothing and exaggerated anatomy I've ever seen on a comic was from manga. This is the bottom line here. Not only are these characters supposed to be idealized human beings (which includes their body dimensions), they're also fun to draw. Why else is learning to draw the human form a fundamental of art? It's the same reason they invented shrinking and growing characters, because it's fun to contrast the human form against itself at different sizes. I'm not saying merh doesn't have a point, I just think there's more to it than simple male chauvinism when it comes to comics. I'd also like to add that I see nothing wrong with comics exaggerating their characters' physiques. Their overly-perfect proportions and unrealistic costumes were part of the fun, and most people (even kids) were smart enough to realize that these were fictional characters and in no way represented how they should dress or look in real life. Or if they did believe in it as kids they eventually grew out of it. I mean, heck, I didn't feel pressured to look like a freakin ninja turtle as a kid. It also didn't make me feel insecure that Conan looked like he had rocks under his skin in place of muscles.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 1, 2019 18:19:21 GMT
This is the bottom line here. Not only are these characters supposed to be idealized human beings (which includes their body dimensions), they're also fun to draw. Why else is learning to draw the human form a fundamental of art? It's the same reason they invented shrinking and growing characters, because it's fun to contrast the human form against itself at different sizes. I'm not saying merh doesn't have a point, I just think there's more to it than simple male chauvinism when it comes to comics. I'd also like to add that I see nothing wrong with comics exaggerating their characters' physiques. Their overly-perfect proportions and unrealistic costumes were part of the fun, and most people (even kids) were smart enough to realize that these were fictional characters and in no way represented how they should dress or look in real life. Or if they did believe in it as kids they eventually grew out of it. I mean, heck, I didn't feel pressured to look like a freakin ninja turtle as a kid. It also didn't make me feel insecure that Conan looked like he had rocks under his skin in place muscles. Agreed, I mentioned this previously in the thread. I can't comment on the female perspective but as a male reader, I understood the surrealism of comic books in every sense and to my mind as a kid, some of the men had costumes just as wild as some of the women. Our society certainly puts a different kind of pressure on women but that double standard doesn't really exist in modern comic books. Even if your superpower has absolutely nothing to do with physicality, you better believe that dude is going to be ripped like a personal trainer.
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Post by merh on Mar 3, 2019 22:58:40 GMT
One of my bones to pick with superhero comics is gals are often scantily clad or in inappropriate dress. You get Cap head to toe in leather & chainmail, Thor in leather & armor, but gals in spandex? Come on.
You have to admit in many ways comics through the 80s have been made as male fantasies. Guys they want to be & gals they want to bed, right. They might have improved after I stopped buying comics, but overall they were designed to tantalize to sell copy.As the mom of a teen girl, I noticed how manga was designed about 1/3 of the titles to appeal to girls while western comics remained focused on the male audience. I sat in a Comicon International panel where the company stated this, that conventional wisdom was teen girls bought clothes & makeup while boys were the ones who bought DC & Marvel comics so after years of cannibalizing the audience from one another, the early 00s saw manga enter the market & actually sell to females. And the males in the audience did not believe it. Because girls don't buy comics. So what? Oh, and pullleeease...
You think the musclebound guys in comics are the same as movies? There's a reason they didnt cast an ugly short dude as Wolverine in the first X-men movie. But his comic depiction is completely aimed at dudes.
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Post by merh on Mar 3, 2019 23:26:42 GMT
One of my bones to pick with superhero comics is gals are often scantily clad or in inappropriate dress. You get Cap head to toe in leather & chainmail, Thor in leather & armor, but gals in spandex? Come on. You have to admit in many ways comics through the 80s have been made as male fantasies. Guys they want to be & gals they want to bed, right. They might have improved after I stopped buying comics, but overall they were designed to tantalize to sell copy. As the mom of a teen girl, I noticed how manga was designed about 1/3 of the titles to appeal to girls while western comics remained focused on the male audience. I sat in a Comicon International panel where the company stated this, that conventional wisdom was teen girls bought clothes & makeup while boys were the ones who bought DC & Marvel comics so after years of cannibalizing the audience from one another, the early 00s saw manga enter the market & actually sell to females. And the males in the audience did not believe it. Because girls don't buy comics. Um, ok? I'm not sure how the clothing of superheroes is related to the complaints against Brie but I'll bite. Majority of superheroes both male and female ARE clothed in spandex, especially in the earlier days. Captain America was originally clothed in spandex, it wasn't till much recently that he changed. Still, majority of all comic characters have tight fitting spandex costumes that showcase every single bulge in their anatomy. And while I agree that there are more male characters with sensible attire (Thor, Ghost Rider, Ironman, etc.), I'd like to point out that the most scantily clad comic characters are ALSO men (Namor, Hercules, Conan, etc.). Namor & Conan were costumed back in the day of Captain America in chain mail. Eyeball him punching Hitler. That is chainmail. I have the Thor book for the first movie & it points out they took his measurements for the costume, but he kept working out. They had to split the arms open. Consudering the success of bot bands, do you honestly believe those muscles are for the girls or for the guys? Is Vallejo for guys or gals? It is called fan service in manga & anime. It is deliberate I have far too much anime & manga to even think about.
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Post by merh on Mar 3, 2019 23:37:21 GMT
One of my bones to pick with superhero comics is gals are often scantily clad or in inappropriate dress. You get Cap head to toe in leather & chainmail, Thor in leather & armor, but gals in spandex?
Come on. You have to admit in many ways comics through the 80s have been made as male fantasies. Guys they want to be & gals they want to bed, right. They might have improved after I stopped buying comics, but overall they were designed to tantalize to sell copy. As the mom of a teen girl, I noticed how manga was designed about 1/3 of the titles to appeal to girls while western comics remained focused on the male audience. I sat in a Comicon International panel where the company stated this, that conventional wisdom was teen girls bought clothes & makeup while boys were the ones who bought DC & Marvel comics so after years of cannibalizing the audience from one another, the early 00s saw manga enter the market & actually sell to females. And the males in the audience did not believe it. Because girls don't buy comics. I don't know, head to toe in leather and chainmail sounds pretty kinky to me. Seriously though, I look back on the comic book costumes of the era I was reading (80s) and I chuckle a bit. What's stranger to me is that I never really noticed as a kid. The women had funky costumes, but I still respected the characters because they were written so well. I surely would've had a different opinion if I were around in the 60s and the female characters were all clueless or openly trying to impress the male characters. But by the time the 80s came around, the women's movement had reached comics and I didn't even notice there was a difference between how the men and women were depicted (in terms of garb or characterization). Wasp was leader of the Avengers and I never questioned it. Some of the more outlandish costumes were just that, costumes. In the scope of hyperactive surrealism in comic books, wacky costumes were par for the course. Scarlet Witch was dressed like a stripper because hey, she's weird. Namor fought in a speedo because hey, the dude lives underwater. I agree with your general take about who they were marketing to in the old days (and who was creating these characters, for that matter), I'm just saying that the costumes were at least half the fun in superhero comics, and I never found any of them particularly degrading-- even if they simply were not functional if you spent 5 seconds thinking about it. Looking back on it, I'm sure as an adolescent I got a kick out of Ms. Marvel's stripper costume or She-Hulk's bathing suit costume, but Wasp was covered head to toe IIRC and Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau) showed pretty much no skin other than her face, and those were all among some of my personal favorite characters. They definitely weren't aggressively marketing to girls in those days but that doesn't mean women were there strictly as eye candy by that point. (Then things went to hell in a handbasket in the 90s, but that's all of comics in general, not just depictions of women.) There's a great book on this topic I read years ago called The Supergirls. It's a fun little history of women in superhero comics, I highly recommend it. It was practical-chainmail to protect from a certain level of artillery The Wasp I read as a child was covered. 60s Avengers The female stars like She-Hulk were designed as shameless cash-ins on the male heroes.
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