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Post by pimpinainteasy on Mar 19, 2019 1:08:06 GMT
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Post by pimpinainteasy on Mar 19, 2019 1:09:54 GMT
i cannot comment because i have not watched ULZANA's RAID. also dont remember much of the JOHN FORD films that i have watched.
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Post by pimpinainteasy on Mar 19, 2019 1:12:00 GMT
but i do remember WAYNE's character taking a negative view of FONDA's character in FORT APACHE. FONDA is clearly the villain and the ending sort of underscores how history is distorted by victors to celebrate their nobility and valor.
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Post by Prime etc. on Mar 19, 2019 1:18:38 GMT
I have never been interested in John Ford movies but Tarantino is a globalist tool. If his masters told him For A Few Dollars More is racist because Eastwood and Van Cleef kill the Mexican rapist at the end no doubt he would agree.
What a hack.
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Post by bravomailer on Mar 19, 2019 1:22:45 GMT
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Post by OldAussie on Mar 19, 2019 1:32:29 GMT
Whether you like his movies or not, Tarantino is usually an intelligent cineaste, but he totally misinterprets Fort Apache.
Plus I hate seeing 21st century morality imposed on earlier times. Washington and Jefferson were slave-owners.....does this diminish their historical importance?
On a positive note, I love Ulzana's Raid.
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Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Mar 19, 2019 2:04:44 GMT
Whether you like his movies or not, Tarantino is usually an intelligent cineaste, but he totally misinterprets Fort Apache. Plus I hate seeing 21st century morality imposed on earlier times. Washington and Jefferson were slave-owners.....does this diminish their historical importance? On a positive note, I love Ulzana's Raid. I get the sense that "historical importance" was not what you were actually getting at there. Even figures who have perpetrated horrific events in the past may be historically important. The fact that Washington and Jefferson were slaveholders certainly challenges suggestions that they should be held up as models on the basis of character. But that is not to say that they did not make critically important contributions to the development of the early US government and to the state of Virginia.
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Post by politicidal on Mar 19, 2019 2:37:36 GMT
I guess he missed the subtext of The Searchers. Found this quote on wikipedia but the original link is dead:
There's some merit to the charge that the Indian hasn't been portrayed accurately or fairly in the Western, but again, this charge has been a broad generalization and often unfair. The Indian didn't welcome the white man ... and he wasn't diplomatic ... If he has been treated unfairly by whites in films, that, unfortunately, was often the case in real life. There was much racial prejudice in the West
There was also Cheyenne Autumn where the Indians are clearly the protagonists fleeing unjust confinement by the victorious U.S. Army.
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Post by hitchcockthelegend on Mar 19, 2019 2:55:06 GMT
Ulzana's Raid
Maybe you don't want to think of the white man being savage like the Apache?
Apache renegade Ulzana goes on a murder raid, hot on his trail is a posse of cavalrymen. Led by the young and inexperienced Lt. Garnett DeBuin, the cavalrymen in order to survive and defeat Ulzana, must rely on the help of tough old scout McIntosh and his trusty Indian friend, Ke-Ni-Tay.
Directed masterfully by Robert Aldrich (The Dirty Dozen & The Longest Yard), Ulzana's Raid is just shy of being an uncompromising masterpiece. There is no pandering to political correctness here, this is showing the bitter hostility of the Indian war, torture and murderous inclination is the order of the day. The allegories to Vietnam are hard to ignore as our band of men are struggling out in the wilderness against Ulzana's hostile raiders, the sprawling mountainous landscape another tool to the already handily equipped Apache.
What lifts Ulzana's Raid high above many of its contemporaries is its on the money dialogue. A wonderfully complex script from Alan Sharp manages to make all the characters intriguing and deserving of further delving. The Apache are savage, and Aldrich doesn't flinch from showing this, but they are afforded respect, and crucially, understanding. Ulzana's Raid could quite easily have been a one sided blood letting exercise in Western folklore, but it isn't. The motives and attitudes of the white man party is there for all to scrutinise, with much attention to detail given as the many conversations bring rich and rewarding results to the discerning viewer. From the off it's evident that McIntosh & DeBuin have vastly different views of Ulzana's actions, but as the film moves forward; all manner of questions leap out, be it Christian values, racial hatred or merely imperialistic trust; all parties involved are hurtling towards the final reckoning.
Burt Lancaster is perfect as McIntosh, grizzled and carrying a frame made for such a rigorous terrain. Playing DeBuin is Bruce Davison, boyish charm fused expertly with unwanted bravado, while stealing the film is Jorge Luke as Ke-Ni-Tay. A performance of great depth that holds and binds the picture brilliantly. Sadly this film has been a victim of much interference over the years, (studio and Lancaster himself to blame), so much so there is thought to be about 6 cuts of the film out there in the home entertainment world. Thankfully we are now able to get a cut of the film that is almost complete, but still there remains to this day no definitive full cut of the film. German (the version I own) and Australian releases proclaim to have it uncut, but that's not accurate because there is still some three minutes missing from the very first cut of it: including a quite crucial sequence involving Sergeant and Trooper Miller. Still, it has to be said that even with 3 minutes chopped out of it, Ulzana's Raid is still a grim and brilliant piece of work. Showing the savagery from both sides of the fence, Aldrich and his team refuse to cop out and pander to formula. 9/10
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Post by hitchcockthelegend on Mar 19, 2019 3:06:18 GMT
On a positive note, I love Ulzana's Raid. It quite simply has to be seen by any adult who is a fan of Westerns.
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Post by pimpinainteasy on Mar 19, 2019 4:38:38 GMT
On a positive note, I love Ulzana's Raid. It quite simply has to be seen by any adult who is a fan of Westerns. i havent watched it. will do it ASAP.
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 19, 2019 5:37:13 GMT
Well, John Wayne definitely was a white supremacist. Probably John Ford too although he didn't give moronic interviews as Wayne did. In before someone says "that doesn't diminish his historical significance." Well, probably not. So what?
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Post by vegalyra on Mar 19, 2019 17:59:14 GMT
Too bad, I like a lot of Ford's films. I guess you can like the films and not the person, right? I've never read up much about Ford to really know one way or the other.
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 19, 2019 18:23:21 GMT
Too bad, I like a lot of Ford's films. Absolutely. The real world is full of the good and the bad. Even people are not completely good or bad. They have somethings good about them and somethings bad. We do business with the good and the bad. We live in an open economy where everyone is linked with everyone else. Maybe the shopkeeper I bought things from isn't a nice guy. Those films are reflection of our society. Of course, no society in the world and no country in the world has been free from bad things. There was racism in America and certainly so in both the time period in which the movies were set and the time period in which famous westerns were made. Now we can enjoy those movies for many reasons.
One reason that I apply for watching those movies that are associated with people who are alleged to be racist/misogynist is that a movie is never a work of one individual. 100s of people are involved in making a movie. So it is being disrespectful towards many other people involved in making a movie if we reject watching that movie because of one individual. Another reason is that movies aid our awareness. One can learn from bad attitudes depicted in movies and not carry those attitudes in his or her own life. I certainly believe that John Wayne was a white supremacist. I also believe that Eastwood does not carry the best of thoughts. I have a feeling that John Ford shared white supremacist beliefs to some extent although I may be wrong in believing that. However, none of that stops me from watching movies of any of those folks. Yes, my respect for the artists themselves might change. I was a massive fan of Shintarô Katsu (famous Japanese actor) but I later learned that he was not so a nice human being. I certainly lost my admiration for him but not really for the characters that he played. All that said, one thing that irritates me is when people create absurd reasons to justify outright racist people such as Walter Brennan by saying that the standards were different in those times. Maybe the standards were different in those times but we can still compare Walter Brennan with other people of his generation and determine that irrespective of the standards of those times, he was still a despicable person. Same goes for people like John Wayne.
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Post by pimpinainteasy on Mar 20, 2019 4:05:07 GMT
ultimately it is all art and it is ridiculous to suggest that art should be populated only by good virtuous people with noble intentions. some of the greatest writers of the 20th century (louis ferdinand celine, vs naipaul, charles bukowski etc) were genocidal maniacs, molesters and racists. it would be entirely boring if the art world were to be taken over by completely noble people like mark ruffallo, seth rogen and ben affleck. i have seen many of their films and they suck compared to the ones made by FORD and WAYNE.
may i also add that i do not completely buy TARANTINO's activism laden film criticism. i think TARANTINO is a total psycho who is forced to play by the rules because he got so popular after his first two films. he is an extremely self conscious person who goes out of his way to write black characters. i dont really buy his public persona. he even converted JACKIE BROWN (elmore leonard wrote it as a white character in his novel) into a black character. i dont entirely buy all this. spike lee made a hilarious comment about how tarantino wanted to be made honorary black man. i think most artists (not just TARANTINO) have terrible thoughts going through their heads. only 5% of those artists actually have the balls and are mad enough to express their terrible thoughts. i hope more of these mad artists express themselves and not just sanctimonious albeit talented pricks like TARANTINO.
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Post by hitchcockthelegend on Mar 20, 2019 9:56:49 GMT
It quite simply has to be seen by any adult who is a fan of Westerns. i havent watched it. will do it ASAP.        Kick Arse!
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Post by snsurone on Mar 20, 2019 12:06:31 GMT
This issue has been discussed on numerous threads.
And--sad to say--I believe that as long as "homo erectus" exists, there will be bigotry and prejudice.
As for "21st century morality", I have to ask, "What morality?"
Yes, many people are outspoken about the hatred against certain peoples.
And I applaud them!
But--let's be honest--it won't change anything.
The truth is that after the Orange Baboon and his prejudices were elected, white supremacy became more powerful than in years.
As for the past, well--you can't change that.
I hope Quentin Tarantino will realize that.
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