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Post by geode on Apr 7, 2019 17:15:48 GMT
How is the best way to pray? I think what is discussed here about "contemplative" prayer is basically correct.
It reminds me also of the similarity to the Buddhist concept of meditation that has been lifted by current psychology as "mindfulness"...to be aware of all creation and our part in it.
I was reading somebody else's thoughts about prayer just yesterday, how we should give thanks to God and not start out by seeking favors. I was pondering "crisis of faith" and what to do about it. Prayer is an answer, but it best be what is described here as "contemplative" to be effective.
Yes, the "duality" in thinking described continues to divide us, and not only in terms of religion.
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Post by Aj_June on Apr 7, 2019 17:37:54 GMT
Kabir Das, the secular poet during Mughal era had said this: In anguish everyone prays to God, in joy does none To One who prays in happiness, how can sorrow come?
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Post by goz on Apr 8, 2019 22:36:56 GMT
How is the best way to pray? I think what is discussed here about "contemplative" prayer is basically correct. It reminds me also of the similarity to the Buddhist concept of meditation that has been lifted by current psychology as "mindfulness"...to be aware of all creation and our part in it. I was reading somebody else's thoughts about prayer just yesterday, how we should give thanks to God and not start out by seeking favors. I was pondering "crisis of faith" and what to do about it. Prayer is an answer, but it best be what is described here as "contemplative" to be effective. Yes, the "duality" in thinking described continues to divide us, and not only in terms of religion. Thankyou for this thoughtful post. It made me think as an agnostic atheist about my 'mindfulness' for want of a better term, and the difference I see between that and 'prayer' To me it comes down to the direction of thoughts when involved in this activity. If one is a theist, one's thoughts are directed 'outwards' towards your deity, whether it is in thanks, communication or entreaty (whether praying for yourself or others, or things in general). As an atheists my thoughts are totally inwards, talking to myself and seeking inner peace harmony and direction of my thoughts perhaps leading to deeds of the future in an attempt to do my best for myself, my neighbours, the environment and society. One of the things that I like best about this Buddhist inspired way of mindfulness, is the self contained responsibility that one takes for one's own thoughts and future actions. AS there is no interaction with an outside force such as deity, then the responsibility is mine alone and direction in my life in my control. It is perhaps the main reason I an not a theist. It would be one thing to be directed by God should he/she/is exist, however it is quite another to be directed by fallacious, delusional power hungry men who wrote the Bible/Quaran etc and then became the pillars of the 'churches' in all religions.
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Post by geode on Apr 9, 2019 6:36:49 GMT
How is the best way to pray? I think what is discussed here about "contemplative" prayer is basically correct. It reminds me also of the similarity to the Buddhist concept of meditation that has been lifted by current psychology as "mindfulness"...to be aware of all creation and our part in it. I was reading somebody else's thoughts about prayer just yesterday, how we should give thanks to God and not start out by seeking favors. I was pondering "crisis of faith" and what to do about it. Prayer is an answer, but it best be what is described here as "contemplative" to be effective. Yes, the "duality" in thinking described continues to divide us, and not only in terms of religion. Thankyou for this thoughtful post. It made me think as an agnostic atheist about my 'mindfulness' for want of a better term, and the difference I see between that and 'prayer' To me it comes down to the direction of thoughts when involved in this activity. If one is a theist, one's thoughts are directed 'outwards' towards your deity, whether it is in thanks, communication or entreaty (whether praying for yourself or others, or things in general). As an atheists my thoughts are totally inwards, talking to myself and seeking inner peace harmony and direction of my thoughts perhaps leading to deeds of the future in an attempt to do my best for myself, my neighbours, the environment and society. One of the things that I like best about this Buddhist inspired way of mindfulness, is the self contained responsibility that one takes for one's own thoughts and future actions. AS there is no interaction with an outside force such as deity, then the responsibility is mine alone and direction in my life in my control. It is perhaps the main reason I an not a theist. It would be one thing to be directed by God should he/she/is exist, however it is quite another to be directed by fallacious, delusional power hungry men who wrote the Bible/Quaran etc and then became the pillars of the 'churches' in all religions. I see our describing ourselves as "theist" or "atheist" as fitting in with what Richard Rohr describes in the video as "duality" of thought which he says always leads to conflict. This is an interesting observation. I think we all should find are similarities instead of battling over our differences. He talks about the duality as thinking in strict black and white terms.
His description of "contemplation" is outward, to focus on a leaf and the like and ponder the interconnection of all. He description (at about the 2:40 min. mark) is very similar to what a Buddhist monk might tell you that meditation is all about, or how a psychologist might describe mindfulness. If we can't find what you describe as inner harmony and doing our best towards others, he seems to be saying that prayer will just be going through the motions.
He describes contemplation as a setup for prayer, that comes from within, by the Spirit.
Jesus taught that we love God by helping each other. This gets lost by far too many Christians. Jesus did not teach that we should come to the aid of just those who think like us. Christian sects get far too much wrapped up in a "clan" mentality. Jesus taught to love your enemies, and in the parable of the Good Samaritan to help others who are different.
Misguided religious leaders are why I am now non-denominational. I prefer to go back to the original source, Christ. Some authors of the Bible were not self-promoting and power hungry in my opinion. Although I am not Roman Catholic I have found strength from the Franciscans. But none of the resident Catholics here have commented.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2019 6:59:50 GMT
Thankyou for this thoughtful post. It made me think as an agnostic atheist about my 'mindfulness' for want of a better term, and the difference I see between that and 'prayer' To me it comes down to the direction of thoughts when involved in this activity. If one is a theist, one's thoughts are directed 'outwards' towards your deity, whether it is in thanks, communication or entreaty (whether praying for yourself or others, or things in general). As an atheists my thoughts are totally inwards, talking to myself and seeking inner peace harmony and direction of my thoughts perhaps leading to deeds of the future in an attempt to do my best for myself, my neighbours, the environment and society. One of the things that I like best about this Buddhist inspired way of mindfulness, is the self contained responsibility that one takes for one's own thoughts and future actions. AS there is no interaction with an outside force such as deity, then the responsibility is mine alone and direction in my life in my control. It is perhaps the main reason I an not a theist. It would be one thing to be directed by God should he/she/is exist, however it is quite another to be directed by fallacious, delusional power hungry men who wrote the Bible/Quaran etc and then became the pillars of the 'churches' in all religions. I see our describing ourselves as "theist" or "atheist" as fitting in with what Richard Rohr describes in the video as "duality" of thought which he says always leads to conflict. This is an interesting observation. I think we all should find are similarities instead of battling over our differences. He talks about the duality as thinking in strict black and white terms.
His description of "contemplation" is outward, to focus on a leaf and the like and ponder the interconnection of all. He description (at about the 2:40 min. mark) is very similar to what a Buddhist monk might tell you that meditation is all about, or how a psychologist might describe mindfulness. If we can't find what you describe as inner harmony and doing our best towards others, he seems to be saying that prayer will just be going through the motions.
He describes contemplation as a setup for prayer, that comes from within, by the Spirit.
Jesus taught that we love God by helping each other. This gets lost by far too many Christians. Jesus did not teach that we should come to the aid of just those who think like us. Christian sects get far too much wrapped up in a "clan" mentality. Jesus taught to love your enemies, and in the parable of the Good Samaritan to help others who are different.
Misguided religious leaders are why I am now non-denominational. I prefer to go back to the original source, Christ. Some authors of the Bible were not self-promoting and power hungry in my opinion. Although I am not Roman Catholic I have found strength from the Franciscans. But none of the resident Catholics here have commented.
I'm not quite sure what you want me to comment about... I agree with your paragraph: 'Jesus taught that we love God by helping each other. This gets lost by far too many Christians. Jesus did not teach that we should come to the aid of just those who think like us. Christian sects get far too much wrapped up in a "clan" mentality. Jesus taught to love your enemies, and in the parable of the Good Samaritan to help others who are different' If you read through my posts, that's my interpretation as a Catholic, and how I try to live my faith.
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Post by goz on Apr 9, 2019 7:36:47 GMT
Thankyou for this thoughtful post. It made me think as an agnostic atheist about my 'mindfulness' for want of a better term, and the difference I see between that and 'prayer' To me it comes down to the direction of thoughts when involved in this activity. If one is a theist, one's thoughts are directed 'outwards' towards your deity, whether it is in thanks, communication or entreaty (whether praying for yourself or others, or things in general). As an atheists my thoughts are totally inwards, talking to myself and seeking inner peace harmony and direction of my thoughts perhaps leading to deeds of the future in an attempt to do my best for myself, my neighbours, the environment and society. One of the things that I like best about this Buddhist inspired way of mindfulness, is the self contained responsibility that one takes for one's own thoughts and future actions. AS there is no interaction with an outside force such as deity, then the responsibility is mine alone and direction in my life in my control. It is perhaps the main reason I an not a theist. It would be one thing to be directed by God should he/she/is exist, however it is quite another to be directed by fallacious, delusional power hungry men who wrote the Bible/Quaran etc and then became the pillars of the 'churches' in all religions. I see our describing ourselves as "theist" or "atheist" as fitting in with what Richard Rohr describes in the video as "duality" of thought which he says always leads to conflict. This is an interesting observation. I think we all should find are similarities instead of battling over our differences. He talks about the duality as thinking in strict black and white terms.
His description of "contemplation" is outward, to focus on a leaf and the like and ponder the interconnection of all. He description (at about the 2:40 min. mark) is very similar to what a Buddhist monk might tell you that meditation is all about, or how a psychologist might describe mindfulness. If we can't find what you describe as inner harmony and doing our best towards others, he seems to be saying that prayer will just be going through the motions.
He describes contemplation as a setup for prayer, that comes from within, by the Spirit.
Jesus taught that we love God by helping each other. This gets lost by far too many Christians. Jesus did not teach that we should come to the aid of just those who think like us. Christian sects get far too much wrapped up in a "clan" mentality. Jesus taught to love your enemies, and in the parable of the Good Samaritan to help others who are different.
Misguided religious leaders are why I am now non-denominational. I prefer to go back to the original source, Christ. Some authors of the Bible were not self-promoting and power hungry in my opinion. Although I am not Roman Catholic I have found strength from the Franciscans. But none of the resident Catholics here have commented.
Unfortunately, the interpretation of 'what Jesus said and meant ' is, in my view SO corrupted that I prefer my own life view where my responsibility for being a 'good' person rests solely with me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2019 8:35:46 GMT
I see our describing ourselves as "theist" or "atheist" as fitting in with what Richard Rohr describes in the video as "duality" of thought which he says always leads to conflict. This is an interesting observation. I think we all should find are similarities instead of battling over our differences. He talks about the duality as thinking in strict black and white terms.
His description of "contemplation" is outward, to focus on a leaf and the like and ponder the interconnection of all. He description (at about the 2:40 min. mark) is very similar to what a Buddhist monk might tell you that meditation is all about, or how a psychologist might describe mindfulness. If we can't find what you describe as inner harmony and doing our best towards others, he seems to be saying that prayer will just be going through the motions.
He describes contemplation as a setup for prayer, that comes from within, by the Spirit.
Jesus taught that we love God by helping each other. This gets lost by far too many Christians. Jesus did not teach that we should come to the aid of just those who think like us. Christian sects get far too much wrapped up in a "clan" mentality. Jesus taught to love your enemies, and in the parable of the Good Samaritan to help others who are different.
Misguided religious leaders are why I am now non-denominational. I prefer to go back to the original source, Christ. Some authors of the Bible were not self-promoting and power hungry in my opinion. Although I am not Roman Catholic I have found strength from the Franciscans. But none of the resident Catholics here have commented.
Unfortunately, the interpretation of 'what Jesus said and meant ' is, in my view SO corrupted that I prefer my own life view where my responsibility for being a 'good' person rests solely with me. That is why so many who call themselfs Christians largely pretty much ignore Christ's actual teachings, or seek to spin them, and constantly hark back to the old testament. They don't really like Christ's new covenant of love.
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Post by geode on Apr 9, 2019 9:29:13 GMT
I see our describing ourselves as "theist" or "atheist" as fitting in with what Richard Rohr describes in the video as "duality" of thought which he says always leads to conflict. This is an interesting observation. I think we all should find are similarities instead of battling over our differences. He talks about the duality as thinking in strict black and white terms.
His description of "contemplation" is outward, to focus on a leaf and the like and ponder the interconnection of all. He description (at about the 2:40 min. mark) is very similar to what a Buddhist monk might tell you that meditation is all about, or how a psychologist might describe mindfulness. If we can't find what you describe as inner harmony and doing our best towards others, he seems to be saying that prayer will just be going through the motions.
He describes contemplation as a setup for prayer, that comes from within, by the Spirit.
Jesus taught that we love God by helping each other. This gets lost by far too many Christians. Jesus did not teach that we should come to the aid of just those who think like us. Christian sects get far too much wrapped up in a "clan" mentality. Jesus taught to love your enemies, and in the parable of the Good Samaritan to help others who are different.
Misguided religious leaders are why I am now non-denominational. I prefer to go back to the original source, Christ. Some authors of the Bible were not self-promoting and power hungry in my opinion. Although I am not Roman Catholic I have found strength from the Franciscans. But none of the resident Catholics here have commented.
Unfortunately, the interpretation of 'what Jesus said and meant ' is, in my view SO corrupted that I prefer my own life view where my responsibility for being a 'good' person rests solely with me. There are multiple interpretations of what Jesus said for some verses. The Bible is plain in places and harder to figure out in other verses. Some interpretations are certainly twisted and self-serving. Jesus taught that the responsibility for being a good person ultimately rests solely on all of us as individuals. Parents and others have a role when we are young, but then it is up to each of us.
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Post by goz on Apr 9, 2019 22:01:36 GMT
Unfortunately, the interpretation of 'what Jesus said and meant ' is, in my view SO corrupted that I prefer my own life view where my responsibility for being a 'good' person rests solely with me. There are multiple interpretations of what Jesus said for some verses. The Bible is plain in places and harder to figure out in other verses. Some interpretations are certainly twisted and self-serving. Jesus taught that the responsibility for being a good person ultimately rests solely on all of us as individuals. Parents and others have a role when we are young, but then it is up to each of us. It is a shame then, that the philosophy is not more generally represented in the teachings of most of the major Christian denominations. Often the guidance given by the churches is hypocritical, harmful to minorities and other religions, self serving and divisive within communities.
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Post by gadreel on Apr 10, 2019 3:08:33 GMT
There are about 5 different sorts of prayer, contemplative prayer is pretty much exactly meditation as far as I have been taught, andis by far the most efficacious sort of prayer.
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Post by geode on Apr 10, 2019 10:04:33 GMT
There are multiple interpretations of what Jesus said for some verses. The Bible is plain in places and harder to figure out in other verses. Some interpretations are certainly twisted and self-serving. Jesus taught that the responsibility for being a good person ultimately rests solely on all of us as individuals. Parents and others have a role when we are young, but then it is up to each of us. It is a shame then, that the philosophy is not more generally represented in the teachings of most of the major Christian denominations. Often the guidance given by the churches is hypocritical, harmful to minorities and other religions, self serving and divisive within communities. Yes, that is a large reason that I am non-denominational. Guidance can be hypocritical and derisive. But often it is not. That is why it is best to adhere to the original teacher's words, those of Jesus. However, I doubt that the dear friar in this video is guilty of anything that you identify here.
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Post by goz on Apr 10, 2019 20:59:19 GMT
It is a shame then, that the philosophy is not more generally represented in the teachings of most of the major Christian denominations. Often the guidance given by the churches is hypocritical, harmful to minorities and other religions, self serving and divisive within communities. Yes, that is a large reason that I am non-denominational. Guidance can be hypocritical and derisive. But often it is not. That is why it is best to adhere to the original teacher's words, those of Jesus. However, I doubt that the dear friar in this video is guilty of anything that you identify here. Why pray to any outside force for guidance when it is unnecessary?
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Post by geode on Apr 11, 2019 6:40:55 GMT
Yes, that is a large reason that I am non-denominational. Guidance can be hypocritical and derisive. But often it is not. That is why it is best to adhere to the original teacher's words, those of Jesus. However, I doubt that the dear friar in this video is guilty of anything that you identify here. Why pray to any outside force for guidance when it is unnecessary? From the point of view of an atheist that is logical. Believers follow the teachings of Jesus. He taught we should pray. But as Friar Rohr says at about the 2 minute mark this should take the form of a consciousness of being in unity with God and all that surrounds us. At least to a large extent Gadreel is correct that this contemplative prayer is meditation.
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