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Post by Aj_June on Mar 3, 2017 23:21:34 GMT
Both the polls have different winners. Haha. What's you no.1? I guess Once Upon A Time in the West? They are both Leone movies. Does that mean John Ford lost? Stagecoach (1939) has the best chase sequence ever filmed. The searchers was great as well. But the fact is that the 2 movies from Leone have far greater entertainment value. My fav from Ford is the film adaption of " A grapes of Wrath"
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Post by jillmcbain on Mar 3, 2017 23:23:58 GMT
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bb15
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Post by bb15 on Mar 7, 2017 23:10:19 GMT
The poll was well done with plenty of good choices. The tough part was that I could only pick one.
Imo at least, BB ;-)
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Post by themanwithnoshame on Apr 19, 2017 17:36:02 GMT
Bump. Will seek new voters.
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Post by london777 on Apr 19, 2017 23:42:18 GMT
I am not big on Westerns. I am English. England does not have a "West", unless you count Cornwall (in which case Rebecca [1940] would get my vote).
It is not often I vote with all you "deplorables". I usually try to find some obscure Moldovan feature to emphasise my intellect and exquisite taste but that does not work very well with this genre. Gosh darn it, I am going to vote for Once Upon a Time in the West too.
Runners-up: The Searchers (1956) (the only movie in which I can stomach John Wayne) and High Noon (1952).
Worth a mention: The Proposition (2005) an Australian western The Homesman (2014) starring, directed and co-written by Tommy Lee Jones.
The best film on your list is The Treasure of Sierra Madre, but I do not consider that a western but an adventure movie with a Film Noir soul.
Which raises the question: how do you define a western? Surely needs more than geography and epoch? I would rule out The TSM, Dead Man, and Django Unchained, while The Hateful Eight is an Agatha Christie type whodunnit in Western fancy dress.
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Post by politicidal on Apr 20, 2017 0:57:43 GMT
How did I miss this?
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Post by OldAussie on Apr 20, 2017 1:03:56 GMT
Ride the High Country (1962) - I'm the only one?
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bb15
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Post by bb15 on Apr 20, 2017 3:54:48 GMT
I am not big on Westerns. I am English. England does not have a "West", unless you count Cornwall (in which case Rebecca [1940] would get my vote). It is not often I vote with all you "deplorables". I usually try to find some obscure Moldovan feature to emphasise my intellect and exquisite taste but that does not work very well with this genre. Gosh darn it, I am going to vote for Once Upon a Time in the West too. Runners-up: The Searchers (1956) (the only movie in which I can stomach John Wayne) and High Noon (1952). Worth a mention: The Proposition (2005) an Australian western The Homesman (2014) starring, directed and co-written by Tommy Lee Jones. The best film on your list is The Treasure of Sierra Madre, but I do not consider that a western but an adventure movie with a Film Noir soul. Which raises the question: how do you define a western? Surely needs more than geography and epoch? I would rule out The TSM, Dead Man, and Django Unchained, while The Hateful Eight is an Agatha Christie type whodunnit in Western fancy dress. Any film with characters West of the Mississippi in the 1800s which can include Canada or Mexico. That is why "The Revenant", "Django Unchained' and "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" can be considered Westerns. The story type is not the key. It is the location and date. For instance, take a Kurosawa Samurai script, put it in the North American West in the 1800s with characters of that era and bingo, we have more Westerns. Imo at least, BB ;-)
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Post by london777 on Apr 20, 2017 14:38:32 GMT
I am not big on Westerns. I am English. England does not have a "West", unless you count Cornwall (in which case Rebecca [1940] would get my vote). It is not often I vote with all you "deplorables". I usually try to find some obscure Moldovan feature to emphasise my intellect and exquisite taste but that does not work very well with this genre. Gosh darn it, I am going to vote for Once Upon a Time in the West too. Runners-up: The Searchers (1956) (the only movie in which I can stomach John Wayne) and High Noon (1952). Worth a mention: The Proposition (2005) an Australian western The Homesman (2014) starring, directed and co-written by Tommy Lee Jones. The best film on your list is The Treasure of Sierra Madre, but I do not consider that a western but an adventure movie with a Film Noir soul. Which raises the question: how do you define a western? Surely needs more than geography and epoch? I would rule out The TSM, Dead Man, and Django Unchained, while The Hateful Eight is an Agatha Christie type whodunnit in Western fancy dress. Any film with characters West of the Mississippi in the 1800s which can include Canada or Mexico. That is why "The Revenant", "Django Unchained' and "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" can be considered Westerns. The story type is not the key. It is the location and date. For instance, take a Kurosawa Samurai script, put it in the North American West in the 1800s with characters of that era and bingo, we have more Westerns. Imo at least, BB ;-) OK. That is a clear-cut definition we could all work to. A pity you do not adhere to it yourself. How the hell is The Treasure of the Sierra Madre set in the 1800s? I admire your clarity, and if that were generally agreed I would accept it. But personally, I think story type is critical to westerns. They should deal with as many as possible of the following themes: --- Good versus evil and courage in standing up to evil --- Conservatism versus modernization --- Man against Nature or Man in harmony with Nature --- The preservation of individual liberty, even if against the good of the majority I do not care for westerns much because most have an underlying bias towards political and social attitudes to which I am opposed. They also tend to be too simple plot-wise and plot is my favorite component in movies. I am English so favor a literary rather than visual approach to movies. I could enjoy a movie where two guys sit talking in a bare room for two hours (and have seen a few not far removed from that). But I could not watch magnificent scenery porn or ingenious camerawork for even twenty minutes if there is no plot or dialog. Which is maybe why I do not "get" Terence Malick?
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Post by themanwithnoshame on Apr 20, 2017 18:32:47 GMT
The best film on your list is The Treasure of Sierra Madre, but I do not consider that a western but an adventure movie with a Film Noir soul. i do concurr with you about it not being a Western in the truest sense. But IMDb classified it as one. Which is why it was on the list.
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Post by bb15 on Apr 21, 2017 4:48:58 GMT
Any film with characters West of the Mississippi in the 1800s which can include Canada or Mexico. That is why "The Revenant", "Django Unchained' and "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" can be considered Westerns. The story type is not the key. It is the location and date. For instance, take a Kurosawa Samurai script, put it in the North American West in the 1800s with characters of that era and bingo, we have more Westerns. Imo at least, BB ;-) OK. That is a clear-cut definition we could all work to. A pity you do not adhere to it yourself. How the hell is The Treasure of the Sierra Madre set in the 1800s? You are right that the setting of a Western can spill over into the early 20th century if the area in the movie is primitive enough. That is the case with "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre". According to the novel it is based on, the story takes place in the 1920s, but the terrain / villages fit 1800s Western North America. - Another Western which spills over into the 20th century is "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid". I admire your clarity, and if that were generally agreed I would accept it. But personally, I think story type is critical to westerns. They should deal with as many as possible of the following themes: --- Good versus evil and courage in standing up to evil --- Conservatism versus modernization --- Man against Nature or Man in harmony with Nature --- The preservation of individual liberty, even if against the good of the majority I do not care for westerns much because most have an underlying bias towards political and social attitudes to which I am opposed. They also tend to be too simple plot-wise and plot is my favorite component in movies. I am English so favor a literary rather than visual approach to movies. I could enjoy a movie where two guys sit talking in a bare room for two hours (and have seen a few not far removed from that). But I could not watch magnificent scenery porn or ingenious camerawork for even twenty minutes if there is no plot or dialog. Which is maybe why I do not "get" Terence Malick? It's not about your enjoyment where if you like something, then it can't be a Western. - And as for story type, I think you are being too narrow about not only what a Western can be but what the nature of any genre film is. * Setting / technique is essential. - You are English and take a literary approach. Fine I can do that. Take "The Tempest" by Shakespeare. Part of that was adapted to a science fiction film called "Forbiden Planet". Another Shakespeare story is "King Lear". That was adapted by Kurosawa into a Samurai movie, "Ran". "MacBeth" was turned into Kurosawa's "Throne of Blood". Parts of "Hamlet" were put into an animated film set in Africa, "The Lion King". All of those Shakespeare stories could be adapted into Westerns. For instance the Western, "King of Texas" is based on "King Lear". en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Texas* As for the politics of Westerns, I am certainly opposed to the racism in many Westerns (like "The Searchers"). But "High Noon" is a pretty progressive film for its time. There is no one political message in all Westerns. Another example is "Windwalker" which is completely about Native Americans and their culture (in what will become Utah around 1800) before the Europeans arrived. And it's a Western. Imo at least, BB ;-)
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Post by london777 on Apr 21, 2017 12:44:08 GMT
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply, BB15.
I do not have a coherent theory about westerns. Mine were just random thoughts about their definition and as to why I like only a handful of them.
Would you accept The Proposition (2005) as a western? It satisfies my criteria, but not yours, depending on how far west of the Mississippi you will allow. It is set in Australia.
Odd that you choose The Searchers as an example of racism. I was thinking more of latent racism in westerns which panders to the same instincts in the audience. As small children in the Saturday morning flicks we were encouraged to cheer when "Indians" were mown down with Gatling guns. I like The Searchers because of its cinematic values, and I am not repelled by the racist views expressed because they are explicit and we are supposed to abhor them. Indeed, by the end of the movie the protagonist seems ready to re-examine his prejudices.
"High Noon" is a pretty progressive film for its time. I like High Noon but it is many decades since I last watched it. In what ways do you feel it was progressive?
Significant that your reply to my unease about the reactionary political and social bias of westerns mentions only racism. While this is a serious problem, it is not the basic one, which is the relationship between the individual citizen and society. As a European, I think most westerns are on the wrong side of this debate.
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Post by Lebowskidoo 🦞 on Apr 21, 2017 14:55:15 GMT
No Blazing Saddles?
I bid thee good day, sir!
I said GOOD DAY!
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Post by bb15 on Apr 22, 2017 8:43:09 GMT
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply, BB15. I do not have a coherent theory about westerns. Mine were just random thoughts about their definition and as to why I like only a handful of them. Would you accept The Proposition (2005) as a western? It satisfies my criteria, but not yours, depending on how far west of the Mississippi you will allow. It is set in Australia. You're welcome. Your thoughtful comments help a lot. - Other countries may mimic Western films in settings outside of America. One way to look at "The Proposition" is to see it as a bushranger movie. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushranger#Cultural_depictionsI feel more comfortable with acknowledging Ausie history even though I realize the film has been viewed as a Western. - Western ideas/cliches have been absorbed in many interesting ways from Kurosawa to an Irish movie called "Into The West". I find the Irish film to be trying to connect in the style of romanticism, exotic things amidst a modern world. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Into_the_West_(film)Odd that you choose The Searchers as an example of racism. I was thinking more of latent racism in westerns which panders to the same instincts in the audience. As small children in the Saturday morning flicks we were encouraged to cheer when "Indians" were mown down with Gatling guns. I like The Searchers because of its cinematic values, and I am not repelled by the racist views expressed because they are explicit and we are supposed to abhor them. Indeed, by the end of the movie the protagonist seems ready to re-examine his prejudices. A lot of people love "The Searchers". It is a highly praised movie by filmmakers and professional critics. - I picked it out because it is famous and because the racism of Westerns (which often illustrates the expansion of Europeans through the West) is based on broken treaties and genocide. It is also illustrative of hundreds of movies of the genre where ethnic cleansing is accepted by the main characters. I could have used another John Ford film "Stagecoach" as an example instead. "High Noon" is a pretty progressive film for its time.
I like High Noon but it is many decades since I last watched it. In what ways do you feel it was progressive? What famous people hated "High Noon"? They included John Wayne, Howard Hawks and John Ford. All these right wingers who believed that people in the Hollywood movie business, who had far left wing views, should be blacklisted or put into prison. This was during the McCarthy era in the US when the communist witch hunts were going on. What is "High Noon" about? Its basic premise is that the democratic process can lead to an immoral decision. In the story Frank Miller should obviously be stopped but the people of the town could not stand up and make the right moral choice. - Extend that idea; sometimes people vote for the wrong party/person or the majority can make a bad lethal decision. Specifically, the majority in the US allowed people to have their careers destroyed or convicted of the crime of freedom of thought. - Of course John Wayne hated "High Noon". He would much rather see a Western hero/racist where racism is always accepted by the majority in the story. Significant that your reply to my unease about the reactionary political and social bias of westerns mentions only racism. While this is a serious problem, it is not the basic one, which is the relationship between the individual citizen and society. As a European, I think most westerns are on the wrong side of this debate. There are lots of movies about the individual and society but we are talking about Westerns. And a basis of many Westerns is racism. So I thought that aspect should be addressed first. But I did propose that "High Noon" is an example of a progressive film but not on the basis of race. Instead what "High Noon" suggests is that a democracy, which makes immoral decisions, is deeply flawed. Imo at least, BB ;-)
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Post by themanwithnoshame on Apr 22, 2017 13:28:49 GMT
No Blazing Saddles? I bid thee good day, sir! I said GOOD DAY! Yeah, my subjective list was about mostly serious and semi serious Westerns, not out and out spoofs.
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Ban
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Post by Ban on Apr 28, 2017 14:10:52 GMT
El Topo
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Post by themanwithnoshame on Apr 29, 2017 2:24:19 GMT
Then vote for it in the above list. At present, it shows zero votes.
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Ban
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Post by Ban on Apr 29, 2017 3:08:24 GMT
Then vote for it in the above list. At present, it shows zero votes. My bad, didn't notice it there. Mistake corrected.
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Post by tresix on May 10, 2017 2:33:30 GMT
Two omissions: "The Great Train Robbery" (1903). The first movie that actually tells a story. Memorable for the famous shot of the cowboy firing his gun directly at the camera.
"El Dorado" (1967) quasi-remake of "Rio Bravo" that I think improves on the earlier film.
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Post by tresix on May 22, 2017 22:57:37 GMT
Would "Zulu" count as an English western?
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