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Post by pimpinainteasy on Jul 14, 2019 3:42:48 GMT
what does he mean by dark and sparse as the whiskers of a machiavel? could anyone explain?
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Post by amyghost on Jul 14, 2019 17:11:13 GMT
I treasure Updike as an essayist and enjoy some of his fiction but oh god, whenever he goes off on some aria about female genitalia, it's book across the room and into the wall time.
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Post by Carl LaFong on Jul 15, 2019 1:06:59 GMT
I remember a vivid description of anal sex in one of the Rabbit books.
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Post by pimpinainteasy on Jul 19, 2019 17:00:44 GMT
I remember a vivid description of anal sex in one of the Rabbit books. i just read the first one. want to read the rest. yeah right.
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Post by Carl LaFong on Jul 19, 2019 17:30:45 GMT
I remember a vivid description of anal sex in one of the Rabbit books. i just read the first one. want to read the rest. yeah right. Didn’t you like it? I enjoyed all four. The first was my favourite, my least favourite was the second.
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Post by pimpinainteasy on Jul 20, 2019 1:52:47 GMT
i just read the first one. want to read the rest. yeah right. Didn’t you like it? I enjoyed all four. The first was my favourite, my least favourite was the second. yes, enjoyed it. i said yeah right because my reading has fallen thanks to mobile and internet addiction.
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Post by Carl LaFong on Jul 20, 2019 4:21:46 GMT
Didn’t you like it? I enjoyed all four. The first was my favourite, my least favourite was the second. yes, enjoyed it. i said yeah right because my reading has fallen thanks to mobile and internet addiction. Ah, I see. I’ve only read one book in the last 12 months! And that’s not that unusual for me.
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Post by telegonus on Aug 11, 2019 6:09:52 GMT
I treasure Updike as an essayist and enjoy some of his fiction but oh god, whenever he goes off on some aria about female genitalia, it's book across the room and into the wall time.
I agree, Amy. John Updike was much better when writing humorous pieces IMO, including novels (Bech, for instance). He was a brilliant observer, had, as the saying goes, the chops to do major work, fell short for a bunch of reasons. I don't know all that about him personally even though I saw him a few times walking around the streets of Boston; and in high school I attended a Sunday morning lecture he delivered at a local church whose minister's daughter he was married to at the time. He came off as such a nice guy in public and in interviews, yet he could be a sharp, merciless critic. At times he seemed lacking in empathy, if mostly the "little things"; and yet his seeming (to my eyes) lack of feeling for others puts me off.
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Post by amyghost on Aug 11, 2019 11:02:41 GMT
I treasure Updike as an essayist and enjoy some of his fiction but oh god, whenever he goes off on some aria about female genitalia, it's book across the room and into the wall time.
I agree, Amy. John Updike was much better when writing humorous pieces IMO, including novels (Bech, for instance). He was a brilliant observer, had, as the saying goes, the chops to do major work, fell short for a bunch of reasons. I don't know all that about him personally even though I saw him a few times walking around the streets of Boston; and in high school I attended a Sunday morning lecture he delivered at a local church whose minister's daughter he was married to at the time. He came off as such a nice guy in public and in interviews, yet he could be a sharp, merciless critic. At times he seemed lacking in empathy, if mostly the "little things"; and yet his seeming (to my eyes) lack of feeling for others puts me off.
A treat, to have been able to see him in person. He was, as you say, a gifted observer; I have all three of his books of essays on art and artists and his keen appreciation, as well as his humility in coming from the perspective of amateur enthusiast, make them enjoyable and enlightening reads. And I completely agree with you that his best fictional talents often displayed to the most advantage in his 'funnier' works. He seems, of late, to have fallen deeply out of favor with the millenial crowd (the late David Foster Wallace wrote an essay on Updike that, while admitting his undeniable writing talent, essentially savaged his work on thematic grounds), and I suspect one of the reasons was due in large part to the more, er, gynecological aspects of his work--he seemed destined to fall afoul of modern PC permutations (much as Philip Roth has, both men perhaps not entirely unfairly, but sad to see that just one limited facet of their respective takes on the human condition have taken on ultimate importance in the eyes of modern readers) and he seems to be falling by the wayside academically speaking. Sad, as at his best, he did capture vividly a section of American experience that still has pertinence in the culture of today.
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Post by telegonus on Aug 11, 2019 16:47:09 GMT
Thanks, Amy. I wasn't aware of Updike having "fallen afoul" with the pc crowd, that he is being downgraded, as it were, by academicians (though these things run in fashions as much as everything else does). When he was alive and well Updike seemed highly rated, and by Boomers in particular, many of whom gave him a much higher ranking than I felt he deserved.
Gore Vidal wrote perceptively of him as catering to the two chief "obsessions" of the Great American Middle Class: sex and religion. Vidal felt that this was intentional. Updike knew hie readers; and he also knew what got critics to think well of him. He was in this an opportunist, often transparently so (but then aren't well all, to varying degrees?).
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Post by amyghost on Aug 12, 2019 11:26:08 GMT
Thanks, Amy. I wasn't aware of Updike having "fallen afoul" with the pc crowd, that he is being downgraded, as it were, by academicians (though these things run in fashions as much as everything else does). When he was alive and well Updike seemed highly rated, and by Boomers in particular, many of whom gave him a much higher ranking than I felt he deserved. Gore Vidal wrote perceptively of him as catering to the two chief "obsessions" of the Great American Middle Class: sex and religion. Vidal felt that this was intentional. Updike knew hie readers; and he also knew what got critics to think well of him. He was in this an opportunist, often transparently so (but then aren't well all, to varying degrees?). I found a link to the Wallace essay: bookmarks.reviews/just-a-penis-with-a-thesaurus-david-foster-wallace-on-john-updike-and-the-great-male-narcissists/which I think is a bit harsh, overall (the title is a giveaway), but makes some valid points with regard to Updike's treatment of the whole male/female relationary thing. It's of interest mainly because it seems to have become a bit of a seminal text on what the current generation of readers are being indoctrinated with in regard to the university take on Updike's PC scorecard. Vidal was, in a sense, 'on to' Updike early on, finding him something of an empty vessel in what he had to say about his contemporary American world. It's hardly a secret that Vidal was no great fan of the genre heteronormative style of novel which dwelt, sometimes to the the seeming exclusion of anything else, on the sexual lives of affluent white Middle America. Although Gore admits Updike's beauty of language (something even his severest critics nearly always give the nod to, with good reason), his take on the corpus of Updike's fictional world appears to be that Updike lacked the sense of engagement with the political and social ferment of his times, or at any rate focused only on the narrowest aspect of them, primarily the sexual--and in a way that both Vidal and other critics found infuriatingly chauvinistic and shallow. I think a valid case stands for this view, and is a primary reason I tend to prefer Updike's non-fictional works to his novels--though several, such as The Poorhouse Fair are successful at transcending those limits and for me hold enduring value as purely literary works.
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Post by telegonus on Aug 12, 2019 18:46:52 GMT
I appreciate the link, Amy. It was a good essay IMO, even as I sensed that the cardinal sin for a novelist in Wallace's mind was the inability to come to terms with issues in a pleasingly familiar PC manner. On this I disagree. Great art (or for that matter "merely" good art) comes in all the shapes, sizes and colors of the socio-political spectrum; and it often conforms to no fixed world view, least of all a widely accepted one.
To return to John Updike here, I've never found his prose to be truly beautiful. I'd say skillful. He was a master of his craft and had a poet's eye, yet his writing never quite "sings" for me. I feel that his "warming up" for his Big Moments is somehow calculated. His work never feels natural to me; and a hard worker he was. When he wants something he describes to be beautiful I can see the effort he's putting in, and while I respect it, I don't buy it; but that's me.
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