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Post by novastar6 on Jul 27, 2019 19:15:15 GMT
So for anybody whose beliefs lean towards guilt, would you care to explain just who of the accusers and the 'witnesses' you find to be credible, and why you do, and which PART of their stories you find credible? On one side we've got parents who at best are just con artists who thought absolutely nothing about ruining not only the life of the biggest rock star in the world but the lives of their own kids as well, at worst they pimped their kids out for the right price, but you're going to take them at their word and believe what they tell you? And on the other side we have ex-staff who at best are just lying thieves looking for 15 minutes of fame and fortune, and at worst, they stood around WATCHING kids be abused for months or years and never did ANYTHING to stop it. And what they all have in common is when they all came forward with their stories, they were all looking for a payday, nobody told what they saw out of the goodness of their heart or they would've called 911 when it happened instead of waiting years later after they'd been fired to tell for a DA doling out money for testimonies. What's credible about a bunch of people like that? And if there is NO credibility among ANY of them, why do you think he's guilty? The ONLY reason you ever heard one word about what he supposedly did is BECAUSE of these people trying to get money. Chandler took millions of dollars and ran, Arvizo cried sexual molestation when she got caught stealing and taught her boys how to fleece several celebrities out of $50 a pop, Robson imitated MJ for his whole life then as soon as he lost a gig, THEN he suddenly recalls being abused and oh the music is SO triggering for him he can't dance anymore, Safechuck's family is 1 million dollars in the hole on a lawsuit against their family owned garbage removal business. Notice how no accusers are financially well off and satisfied? Is that just coincidence out of the millions of people that Michael Jackson was around who could accuse him, anybody who is doing well for themselves and earning their own living, and is HONEST for that matter, doesn't feel a need to cry rape?
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 27, 2019 22:22:42 GMT
Also, I just read that Michael was chemically castrated by his evil father to preserve his singing voice. So, that means no testosterone. So, if that's true, and I believe it is because did you ever hear MJ's voice as an adult? It is SUPER high. So, I just don't think he could have done anything that wrong. His aggressive impulses would have been mostly eradicated. Even healthy aggression would have been nipped in the bud, so to speak.
And if it is true, then that is a horrible, life-killing thing that happened to Michael Jackson. First time I ever read it, but it makes sense.
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Post by dirtypillows on Jul 27, 2019 23:24:18 GMT
Also, I just read that Michael was chemically castrated by his evil father to preserve his singing voice. So, that means no testosterone. So, if that's true, and I believe it is because did you ever hear MJ's voice as an adult? It is SUPER high. So, I just don't think he could have done anything that wrong. His aggressive impulses would have been mostly eradicated. Even healthy aggression would have been nipped in the bud, so to speak. And if it is true, then that is a horrible, life-killing thing that happened to Michael Jackson. First time I ever read it, but it makes sense. Why can women be so aggressive Mr. D, if they don't have any big gonza warbleys? I think that women do have testosterone released in their system. Also, psychological makeup and anger, re: Aileen Wournos or the feminazis You know where I learned the testosterone thing from, Toasted Cheese? The movie "Tootsie", the scene where Dorothy and Julie are talking about Dottie's "little moustache problem"! lol! Though I seriously question the premise that men are going to find that attractive. In the slightest. I almost died when Julie said that to Dorothy! What men are going to find a woman with a moustache sexually exciting?!!! Yikes! Julie was just being a friend and wanted to make super homely but lovable Dorothy feel better about herself! Of course, you're right about men having door knockers. Sigh..... Women do have breasts, which are pretty cool, but they don't have balls, which are the living end!
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Post by kls on Jul 28, 2019 0:57:10 GMT
Also, I just read that Michael was chemically castrated by his evil father to preserve his singing voice. So, that means no testosterone. So, if that's true, and I believe it is because did you ever hear MJ's voice as an adult? It is SUPER high. So, I just don't think he could have done anything that wrong. His aggressive impulses would have been mostly eradicated. Even healthy aggression would have been nipped in the bud, so to speak. And if it is true, then that is a horrible, life-killing thing that happened to Michael Jackson. First time I ever read it, but it makes sense. It's on the higher end of the adult male range, but it is not a pre pubescent boy's voice.
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Post by Utpe on Jul 28, 2019 2:29:23 GMT
Didn't the FBI raid Neverland Ranch for years and find nothing?
They need to let it go. Even if Michael did all of those things Wade and James claimed, what good is it going to
do if they keep dragging his name through the mud?
The guy's dead. No amount of justice can be sought.
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 28, 2019 3:10:02 GMT
Didn't the FBI raid Neverland Ranch for years and find nothing? They need to let it go. Even if Michael did all of those things Wade and James claimed, what good is it going to do if they keep dragging his name through the mud? The guy's dead. No amount of justice can be sought.
No justice, just 1.6 billion dollars at stake for 2 out of work hasbeen dancers who think they're too special to actually work for a living. Their entire livelihood is riding on convincing the world and a judge that they're telling the truth even though anybody who can Google the timeline of their stories can find the proof otherwise.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 29, 2019 16:58:45 GMT
I really don't have the time to get into this right now, but I'll be back...
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 3:30:30 GMT
So for anybody whose beliefs lean towards guilt, would you care to explain...
I’ll respond step by step. You're entire post is in Italics, and mine in bold, to differentiate...
So for anybody whose beliefs lean towards guilt, would you care to explain just who of the accusers and the 'witnesses' you find to be credible?
All of them.
And why you do?
You mean aside from a grown adult man sleeping exclusively with many little boys over many years? There’s a lot of corroborating evidence such as times, dates, actions and behaviors taken on the part of MJ in every case.
And which PART of their stories you find credible?
All of it.
On one side we've got parents who at best are just con artists who thought absolutely nothing about ruining not only the life of the biggest rock star in the world but the lives of their own kids as well, at worst they pimped their kids out for the right price, but you're going to take them at their word and believe what they tell you?
But I throw blame on the parents as well. In a million years I would never leave my child alone with ANY stranger, Michael Jackson or not. The parents are also to blame.
But just because the parents are assholes does not mean that he didn't do it. In fact, that the parents are assholes ENABLED him to do what he did. The parents were either:
A) in total and complete denial, which I don't understand, perhaps due to his star power...
B) suspected but didn't really want to let it sink in and believe, so they just carried on…
C) or as you say “pimped” out their kids and were fully aware assholes.
None of which takes away the possibility of him molesting those kids. If anything it aids him since the parents were gullible or willing.
And on the other side we have ex-staff who at best are just lying thieves looking for 15 minutes of fame and fortune, and at worst, they stood around WATCHING kids be abused for months or years and never did ANYTHING to stop it.
But you claim nothing happened, don't you? So if nothing happened what would they have been WATCHING?
As far as I’m aware no staff member ever got any money.
And what they all have in common is when they all came forward with their stories, they were all looking for a payday, nobody told what they saw out of the goodness of their heart or they would've called 911 when it happened...
Some staff members did. Some bodyguards, and one maid in particular whose name has remained outside of public knowledge, and that I know of never received money for her story.
...instead of waiting years later after they'd been fired to tell for a DA doling out money for testimonies. What's credible about a bunch of people like that?
People often behave the way they do in cases like these out of fear. Even the victims themselves speak about being afraid of speaking up. It's very common to be afraid and even ashamed, even though you’re the victim. I don't find that hard to believe at all.
And if there is NO credibility among ANY of them (we disagree on that), why do you think he's guilty? The ONLY reason you ever heard one word about what he supposedly did is BECAUSE of these people trying to get money. Chandler took millions of dollars and ran, Arvizo cried sexual molestation when she got caught stealing and taught her boys how to fleece several celebrities out of $50 a pop, Robson imitated MJ for his whole life then as soon as he lost a gig, THEN he suddenly recalls being abused and oh the music is SO triggering for him he can't dance anymore, Safechuck's family is 1 million dollars in the hole on a lawsuit against their family owned garbage removal business.
I don't know what the financial situations of each accuser is. And if that has anything to do with anything. But here’s where I fall on them suing for money damages. Fuck yeah they should sue for money damages. Let me ask you a question?
How much is your ass worth? And the years of emotional suffering you go through after years of molestation? How much is that worth to you? 1 million? 2 Million? 20 million? Whatever they’re getting, if they EVER get anything, isn't NEAR ENOUGH, not by a long shot! NO AMOUNT OF MOENY WILL EVER MAKE THEM EVEN! I’m sure every single one of them would give up all the money they had to not have been raped as children.
And you talk as if there's money flying around all over the place and tons of people are becoming rich off this. That’s not the case. The only instances under which anyone got money was when MJ’s lawyers AGREED to pay out. No one’s ever WON any easy money. Want to know why? Because MJ’s lawyers, and now his estate, will fight it tooth and nail forever, dragging it out far longer than anyone could afford to fight for. Most of these people will NEVER see money. Ever! Unless MJ’s lawyers, or his estate now, AGREE to give it out’ and they won't.
Notice how no accusers are financially well off and satisfied? Is that just coincidence out of the millions of people that Michael Jackson was around who could accuse him, anybody who is doing well for themselves and earning their own living, and is HONEST for that matter, doesn't feel a need to cry rape?
Of course, because no one is financially well off the way that MJ and mega super stars like him ARE. That’s by far the majority of the human population! You could have ten million dollars in the bank and still not have as much as MJ. You’re not making any point with that.
Let me ask you something else, and it's the simplest thing I can ask…
Why the fuck does a grown ass adult man need to sleep with underaged little boys alone in his bed? That alone is enough to make me wonder what the fuck is going on. Doesn't it for you? If not I don't what kind of human being you are! Give me an answer to that, that makes some kind of sense, and you might turn me around. I'll wait...
And more to the point, would you allow it with your children? Bottom line. YOUR children? You claim he’s innocent so it shouldn't be a problem, right? What do you say? I'll leave you with that...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some article links that I think anyone will find interesting…
10 undeniable facts about Michael Jacksons sexual abuse allegations from a reporter who investigated the case closely for years:
www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations
Here are some of my favorites of the undeniable facts-
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
Another article:
Nightmare in Neverland
www.vanityfair.com/magazine/1994/01/orth199401
From the article:
“He is such a highly prized corporate money-making machine, such a valuable product that almost no one, especially those C.E.O.'s and moguls who make millions off him, has ever really questioned his motives: why this reclusive man-child with no known history of romantic relationships prefers to live a fantasy life in the company of children.”
“...Jamie graphically described, first to a psychiatrist and then to the police, exactly how Jackson had repeatedly sexually molested him. Case No. SC026226, filed September 14 in Los Angeles County Superior Court, a civil suit brought on behalf of Jamie, charges sexual battery, battery, seduction, willful misconduct, intentional infliction of emotional distress, fraud, and negligence. "These sexually offensive contacts include but are not limited to defendant Michael Jackson orally copulating plaintiff, defendant Michael Jackson masturbating plaintiff, defendant Michael Jackson eating the semen of plaintiff, and defendant Michael Jackson having plaintiff fondle and manipulate the breasts and nipples of defendant Michael Jackson while defendant Michael Jackson would masturbate."
Another article:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/10/dan-reed-shocked-those-wont-accept-michael-jackson-abuser
“Wade was in love with Jackson and cherished that relationship even more than the bond with his mother. That situation persisted for years. It wasn’t until after he became the father of a little boy that Wade “woke” and began to look for a way out of the accursed mental Neverland he’d entered 22 years earlier.”
And another:
www.npr.org/2019/03/05/699995484/michael-jackson-a-quarter-century-of-sexual-abuse-allegations
And here’s one that’s particularly interesting…
www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2019/03/08/why-michael-jacksons-most-loyal-fans-still-support-him/3105775002/
“...In the week after the “Leaving Neverland” premiere, while plenty of celebrities and social media commenters alike said that they believed the film's accusers, the reaction was more divided than the similarly-damning film “Surviving R. Kelly” on Lifetime, which was met with a more universal outcry against Kelly and swiftly led to his arrest.”
I mentioned this in another post where I suggested that MJ was getting a kind of “pass” in public opinion. Recognize?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 3:39:25 GMT
Didn't the FBI raid Neverland Ranch for years and find nothing? They need to let it go. Even if Michael did all of those things Wade and James claimed, what good is it going to do if they keep dragging his name through the mud? The guy's dead. No amount of justice can be sought. Death is supposed to be the ultimate justice for some people to the eyes of many for a fitting retribution.
Jacko is just further proof about the many layers surrounding his life and circumstances and those who really hate for whatever reason, are still not going to be satisfied, even when the ultimate price has been paid. They want the torment, torture and suffering to be endless. Says a lot more about their own lives and where they operate from. Dying isn't paying the ultimate price. That's the dumbest shit I ever heard. WE ALL DIE! That doesn't mean we paid any price for the wrongdoings in our lives. There are serial killers who were never caught. Does that mean they paid for those crimes?
You pay for the wrong you did when you go to jail and everyone finds out what a scum bag you were. THAT's paying. Dying is just something that everyone does regardless of guilt or innocence.
And yes, I hate on child molesters. If that bothers you then maybe you have the problem. And as far as being "satisfied" this didn't happen to me so I could care less personally, but I'm not going to stay quiet to a dumb thread that was obviously spurred on by one I started elsewhere.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 3:42:47 GMT
Didn't the FBI raid Neverland Ranch for years and find nothing? They need to let it go. Even if Michael did all of those things Wade and James claimed, what good is it going to do if they keep dragging his name through the mud? The guy's dead. No amount of justice can be sought.
No justice, just 1.6 billion dollars at stake for 2 out of work hasbeen dancers who think they're too special to actually work for a living. Their entire livelihood is riding on convincing the world and a judge that they're telling the truth even though anybody who can Google the timeline of their stories can find the proof otherwise.
1.6 Billion is no up for grabs. They'll never see that money. They're not has been's and both of them work. And the best you're gonna get if you google anything is conflicting stories. Nothing corroborates your version of the story. I should know. I've googled!
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 3:49:02 GMT
Also, I just read that Michael was chemically castrated by his evil father to preserve his singing voice. So, that means no testosterone. So, if that's true, and I believe it is because did you ever hear MJ's voice as an adult? It is SUPER high. So, I just don't think he could have done anything that wrong. His aggressive impulses would have been mostly eradicated. Even healthy aggression would have been nipped in the bud, so to speak. And if it is true, then that is a horrible, life-killing thing that happened to Michael Jackson. First time I ever read it, but it makes sense. slate.com/news-and-politics/2007/12/can-a-sex-offender-still-have-sex-after-he-s-been-castrated.html
From the article:
"How can someone who’s been castrated still commit rape?
He can still have an erection. In general, castrated men experience a much-diminished sex drive, because their bodies have very low levels of the male hormone testosterone. This lowers the frequency, strength, and duration of erections, and can cause hot flashes, vertigo, loss of body hair, and breast growth. But depending on the individual, it may be possible for him to become aroused and even to ejaculate, although his erection may be modest and there won’t be any sperm in his semen. Even if a castrated man can’t maintain an erection, he can temporarily reverse the effect by taking testosterone. Also, rapists aren’t necessarily driven by sexual desire; a lower sex drive won’t prevent attacks that are motivated by a desire for power."
But yes, it's a horrible thing that happened to him if its true. Though I don't believe it just because he has a high voice. Lots of men have high voices and all of his brothers did.
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Post by clusium on Jul 30, 2019 4:08:54 GMT
So for anybody whose beliefs lean towards guilt, would you care to explain...
I’ll respond step by step. You're entire post is in Italics, and mine in bold, to differentiate...
So for anybody whose beliefs lean towards guilt, would you care to explain just who of the accusers and the 'witnesses' you find to be credible?
All of them.
And why you do?
You mean aside from a grown adult man sleeping exclusively with many little boys over many years? There’s a lot of corroborating evidence such as times, dates, actions and behaviors taken on the part of MJ in every case.
And which PART of their stories you find credible?
All of it.
On one side we've got parents who at best are just con artists who thought absolutely nothing about ruining not only the life of the biggest rock star in the world but the lives of their own kids as well, at worst they pimped their kids out for the right price, but you're going to take them at their word and believe what they tell you?
But I throw blame on the parents as well. In a million years I would never leave my child alone with ANY stranger, Michael Jackson or not. The parents are also to blame.
But just because the parents are assholes does not mean that he didn't do it. In fact, that the parents are assholes ENABLED him to do what he did. The parents were either:
A) in total and complete denial, which I don't understand, perhaps due to his star power...
B) suspected but didn't really want to let it sink in and believe, so they just carried on…
C) or as you say “pimped” out their kids and were fully aware assholes.
None of which takes away the possibility of him molesting those kids. If anything it aids him since the parents were gullible or willing.
And on the other side we have ex-staff who at best are just lying thieves looking for 15 minutes of fame and fortune, and at worst, they stood around WATCHING kids be abused for months or years and never did ANYTHING to stop it.
But you claim nothing happened, don't you? So if nothing happened what would they have been WATCHING?
As far as I’m aware no staff member ever got any money.
And what they all have in common is when they all came forward with their stories, they were all looking for a payday, nobody told what they saw out of the goodness of their heart or they would've called 911 when it happened...
Some staff members did. Some bodyguards, and one maid in particular whose name has remained outside of public knowledge, and that I know of never received money for her story.
...instead of waiting years later after they'd been fired to tell for a DA doling out money for testimonies. What's credible about a bunch of people like that?
People often behave the way they do in cases like these out of fear. Even the victims themselves speak about being afraid of speaking up. It's very common to be afraid and even ashamed, even though you’re the victim. I don't find that hard to believe at all.
And if there is NO credibility among ANY of them (we disagree on that), why do you think he's guilty? The ONLY reason you ever heard one word about what he supposedly did is BECAUSE of these people trying to get money. Chandler took millions of dollars and ran, Arvizo cried sexual molestation when she got caught stealing and taught her boys how to fleece several celebrities out of $50 a pop, Robson imitated MJ for his whole life then as soon as he lost a gig, THEN he suddenly recalls being abused and oh the music is SO triggering for him he can't dance anymore, Safechuck's family is 1 million dollars in the hole on a lawsuit against their family owned garbage removal business.
I don't know what the financial situations of each accuser is. And if that has anything to do with anything. But here’s where I fall on them suing for money damages. Fuck yeah they should sue for money damages. Let me ask you a question?
How much is your ass worth? And the years of emotional suffering you go through after years of molestation? How much is that worth to you? 1 million? 2 Million? 20 million? Whatever they’re getting, if they EVER get anything, isn't NEAR ENOUGH, not by a long shot! NO AMOUNT OF MOENY WILL EVER MAKE THEM EVEN! I’m sure every single one of them would give up all the money they had to not have been raped as children.
And you talk as if there's money flying around all over the place and tons of people are becoming rich off this. That’s not the case. The only instances under which anyone got money was when MJ’s lawyers AGREED to pay out. No one’s ever WON any easy money. Want to know why? Because MJ’s lawyers, and now his estate, will fight it tooth and nail forever, dragging it out far longer than anyone could afford to fight for. Most of these people will NEVER see money. Ever! Unless MJ’s lawyers, or his estate now, AGREE to give it out’ and they won't.
Notice how no accusers are financially well off and satisfied? Is that just coincidence out of the millions of people that Michael Jackson was around who could accuse him, anybody who is doing well for themselves and earning their own living, and is HONEST for that matter, doesn't feel a need to cry rape?
Of course, because no one is financially well off the way that MJ and mega super stars like him ARE. That’s by far the majority of the human population! You could have ten million dollars in the bank and still not have as much as MJ. You’re not making any point with that.
Let me ask you something else, and it's the simplest thing I can ask…
Why the fuck does a grown ass adult man need to sleep with underaged little boys alone in his bed? That alone is enough to make me wonder what the fuck is going on. Doesn't it for you? If not I don't what kind of human being you are! Give me an answer to that, that makes some kind of sense, and you might turn me around. I'll wait...
And more to the point, would you allow it with your children? Bottom line. YOUR children? You claim he’s innocent so it shouldn't be a problem, right? What do you say? I'll leave you with that...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some article links that I think anyone will find interesting…
10 undeniable facts about Michael Jacksons sexual abuse allegations from a reporter who investigated the case closely for years:
www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations
Here are some of my favorites of the undeniable facts-
4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.
5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.
6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages.
10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.
Another article:
Nightmare in Neverland
www.vanityfair.com/magazine/1994/01/orth199401
From the article:
“He is such a highly prized corporate money-making machine, such a valuable product that almost no one, especially those C.E.O.'s and moguls who make millions off him, has ever really questioned his motives: why this reclusive man-child with no known history of romantic relationships prefers to live a fantasy life in the company of children.”
“...Jamie graphically described, first to a psychiatrist and then to the police, exactly how Jackson had repeatedly sexually molested him. Case No. SC026226, filed September 14 in Los Angeles County Superior Court, a civil suit brought on behalf of Jamie, charges sexual battery, battery, seduction, willful misconduct, intentional infliction of emotional distress, fraud, and negligence. "These sexually offensive contacts include but are not limited to defendant Michael Jackson orally copulating plaintiff, defendant Michael Jackson masturbating plaintiff, defendant Michael Jackson eating the semen of plaintiff, and defendant Michael Jackson having plaintiff fondle and manipulate the breasts and nipples of defendant Michael Jackson while defendant Michael Jackson would masturbate."
Another article:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/10/dan-reed-shocked-those-wont-accept-michael-jackson-abuser
“Wade was in love with Jackson and cherished that relationship even more than the bond with his mother. That situation persisted for years. It wasn’t until after he became the father of a little boy that Wade “woke” and began to look for a way out of the accursed mental Neverland he’d entered 22 years earlier.”
And another:
www.npr.org/2019/03/05/699995484/michael-jackson-a-quarter-century-of-sexual-abuse-allegations
And here’s one that’s particularly interesting…
www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2019/03/08/why-michael-jacksons-most-loyal-fans-still-support-him/3105775002/
“...In the week after the “Leaving Neverland” premiere, while plenty of celebrities and social media commenters alike said that they believed the film's accusers, the reaction was more divided than the similarly-damning film “Surviving R. Kelly” on Lifetime, which was met with a more universal outcry against Kelly and swiftly led to his arrest.”
I mentioned this in another post where I suggested that MJ was getting a kind of “pass” in public opinion. Recognize?
An excellent post, Lenlenlen, & great research, with all those links. I have a website, in which you (as well as everyone else involved with this topic thread) might be interested in. Michael Jackson Facts
When I was introduced to this website a few months ago, I thought it was made in light of the Dan Reed documentary. In fact, this particular website is several years old, possibly made shortly after Jackson died.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 4:16:39 GMT
Dying isn't paying the ultimate price. That's the dumbest shit I ever heard. WE ALL DIE! That doesn't mean we paid any price for the wrongdoings in our lives. There are serial killers who were never caught. Does that mean they paid for those crimes?
You pay for the wrong you did when you go to jail and everyone finds out what a scum bag you were. THAT's paying. Dying is just something that everyone does regardless of guilt or innocence.
And yes, I hate on child molesters. If that bothers you then maybe you have the problem. And as far as being "satisfied" this didn't happen to me so I could care less personally, but I'm not going to stay quiet to a dumb thread that was obviously spurred on by one I started elsewhere.
For those that hate on somebody for crimes they have committed, yes, death is seen as a retribution and vengeance for punishment for what they did. That is why in the US, there is a death penalty debacle and it is seen as the ultimate punishment. People still hate on Jacko and carry on like he wasn't punished enough, when he IS DEAD.
You appear to be projecting your own distorted and displaced aggressions here lenlen, because of your hate and anger issues. Can't help you there buddy, so go ahead and hate all you like, since you can only forgive conditionally, even when something is of no consequence to you.
Michael Jackson didn't pay any price just because he died. That's stupid. He died because he overdosed on prescription drugs. That has NOTHING to do with the other thing. They're not related.
Let me give you a scenario: There was a famous case no too long ago of a man who kidnapped 3 girls and kept them in his basement for years so he could rape them. He was caught, found guilty, sent to jail, and in prison he committed suicide. Did he pay the price? Yes. He was caught, found guilty, sent to jail, and died.
But lets say he had never been caught, found guilty, and sent to jail... but instead he went on raping those girls for many more years. And then one day he dies of a heart attack as an old man. According to you he still paid the price because he died.
That's just plain fucking stupid. If he never got caught, found guilty, and sent to jail, then he never paid any price. You think those three girls would think he paid a price? Do you think their families would think he paid some price?
Are you out of your mind? And I'm the one who's distorted and displaced? LOL! You're a piece of work!
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Post by novastar6 on Jul 30, 2019 7:09:59 GMT
I’ll respond step by step. You're entire post is in Italics, and mine in bold, to differentiate...
So for anybody whose beliefs lean towards guilt, would you care to explain just who of the accusers and the 'witnesses' you find to be credible?
All of them.
And why you do?
You mean aside from a grown adult man sleeping exclusively with many little boys over many years? There’s a lot of corroborating evidence such as times, dates, actions and behaviors taken on the part of MJ in every case.
And which PART of their stories you find credible?
All of it.
On one side we've got parents who at best are just con artists who thought absolutely nothing about ruining not only the life of the biggest rock star in the world but the lives of their own kids as well, at worst they pimped their kids out for the right price, but you're going to take them at their word and believe what they tell you?
But I throw blame on the parents as well. In a million years I would never leave my child alone with ANY stranger, Michael Jackson or not. The parents are also to blame.
But just because the parents are assholes does not mean that he didn't do it. In fact, that the parents are assholes ENABLED him to do what he did. The parents were either:
A) in total and complete denial, which I don't understand, perhaps due to his star power...
B) suspected but didn't really want to let it sink in and believe, so they just carried on…
C) or as you say “pimped” out their kids and were fully aware assholes.
None of which takes away the possibility of him molesting those kids. If anything it aids him since the parents were gullible or willing.
And on the other side we have ex-staff who at best are just lying thieves looking for 15 minutes of fame and fortune, and at worst, they stood around WATCHING kids be abused for months or years and never did ANYTHING to stop it.
But you claim nothing happened, don't you? So if nothing happened what would they have been WATCHING?
As far as I’m aware no staff member ever got any money.
And what they all have in common is when they all came forward with their stories, they were all looking for a payday, nobody told what they saw out of the goodness of their heart or they would've called 911 when it happened...
Some staff members did. Some bodyguards, and one maid in particular whose name has remained outside of public knowledge, and that I know of never received money for her story.
...instead of waiting years later after they'd been fired to tell for a DA doling out money for testimonies. What's credible about a bunch of people like that?
People often behave the way they do in cases like these out of fear. Even the victims themselves speak about being afraid of speaking up. It's very common to be afraid and even ashamed, even though you’re the victim. I don't find that hard to believe at all.
And if there is NO credibility among ANY of them (we disagree on that), why do you think he's guilty? The ONLY reason you ever heard one word about what he supposedly did is BECAUSE of these people trying to get money. Chandler took millions of dollars and ran, Arvizo cried sexual molestation when she got caught stealing and taught her boys how to fleece several celebrities out of $50 a pop, Robson imitated MJ for his whole life then as soon as he lost a gig, THEN he suddenly recalls being abused and oh the music is SO triggering for him he can't dance anymore, Safechuck's family is 1 million dollars in the hole on a lawsuit against their family owned garbage removal business.
I don't know what the financial situations of each accuser is. And if that has anything to do with anything. But here’s where I fall on them suing for money damages. Fuck yeah they should sue for money damages. Let me ask you a question?
How much is your ass worth? And the years of emotional suffering you go through after years of molestation? How much is that worth to you? 1 million? 2 Million? 20 million? Whatever they’re getting, if they EVER get anything, isn't NEAR ENOUGH, not by a long shot! NO AMOUNT OF MOENY WILL EVER MAKE THEM EVEN! I’m sure every single one of them would give up all the money they had to not have been raped as children.
And you talk as if there's money flying around all over the place and tons of people are becoming rich off this. That’s not the case. The only instances under which anyone got money was when MJ’s lawyers AGREED to pay out. No one’s ever WON any easy money. Want to know why? Because MJ’s lawyers, and now his estate, will fight it tooth and nail forever, dragging it out far longer than anyone could afford to fight for. Most of these people will NEVER see money. Ever! Unless MJ’s lawyers, or his estate now, AGREE to give it out’ and they won't.
Notice how no accusers are financially well off and satisfied? Is that just coincidence out of the millions of people that Michael Jackson was around who could accuse him, anybody who is doing well for themselves and earning their own living, and is HONEST for that matter, doesn't feel a need to cry rape?
Of course, because no one is financially well off the way that MJ and mega super stars like him ARE. That’s by far the majority of the human population! You could have ten million dollars in the bank and still not have as much as MJ. You’re not making any point with that.
Let me ask you something else, and it's the simplest thing I can ask…
Why the fuck does a grown ass adult man need to sleep with underaged little boys alone in his bed? That alone is enough to make me wonder what the fuck is going on. Doesn't it for you? If not I don't what kind of human being you are! Give me an answer to that, that makes some kind of sense, and you might turn me around. I'll wait...
And more to the point, would you allow it with your children? Bottom line. YOUR children? You claim he’s innocent so it shouldn't be a problem, right? What do you say? I'll leave you with that...
Not YOUR ass, what's your CHILD'S ass worth to you?
Oh and you believe ALL the accusers, even though they all have completely different stories. So you believe Wade 6 years ago when he said he was 'penetrated and anally sodomized' every single night for 7 years, and you believe him NOW when he says 'oh no, he only tried to anally rape me once when I was 13'. You can see there's a huge difference in those two stories, right? And they can't BOTH be the truth, so which one of them do you actually believe? And do you believe his FIRST story of "I had repressed memories for 20 years and then magically had a breakdown and recovered them a month before I did a tribute on MTV to my wonderful abuser", or his second story when psychological experts shot the first story down saying no such thing was possible, and THEN he said "oh wait that's wrong never mind, I never had repressed memories about what happened, I always knew what happened, but I just never knew it was wrong"? Again, both cannot be true, so which one is it? How about the fact on the website for his 'child abuse foundation', he first said his wife was ALSO a victim of child molestation, then tried to delete that, and couldn't, so he edited to to say his wife was completely naive about child abuse until he told her his story? Again, either she was also a victim or she wasn't, so which one is it? And you believe his story that when he 'aged out' he was replaced with other boys, who he conveniently forgot to mention were JUST AS OLD, or OLDER, than he was at the time? And you believe the story that Safechuck was molested for 7 years also, from 7 to 14, then when the inconsistency in the train station story was pointed out, Dan Reed changed that to 'oh well Safechuck was still being molested when he was 17 years old'? If you really believe ALL of these different stories, you have a serious problem, you are saying there is no such thing as a lie, and nobody lies about anything, especially where money is concerned.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 30, 2019 22:39:26 GMT
Michael Jackson didn't pay any price just because he died. That's stupid. He died because he overdosed on prescription drugs. That has NOTHING to do with the other thing. They're not related.
Let me give you a scenario: There was a famous case no too long ago of a man who kidnapped 3 girls and kept them in his basement for years so he could rape them. He was caught, found guilty, sent to jail, and in prison he committed suicide. Did he pay the price? Yes. He was caught, found guilty, sent to jail, and died.
But lets say he had never been caught, found guilty, and sent to jail... but instead he went on raping those girls for many more years. And then one day he dies of a heart attack as an old man. According to you he still paid the price because he died.
That's just plain fucking stupid. If he never got caught, found guilty, and sent to jail, then he never paid any price. You think those three girls would think he paid a price? Do you think their families would think he paid some price?
Are you out of your mind? And I'm the one who's distorted and displaced? LOL! You're a piece of work! So you are asking others to take on board your own hate and anger issues and should think and feel like you, because you don't know how to deal with them yourself. These are your own insecurities. Go peddle them elsewhere.
You can't possibly know of what journey or life anyone else lives unless living through it yourself, or what we perceive as injustices happening for others, when consequence for our actions goes so much deeper than just man made human legalities and what we only think of as justice. Justice does not exist and I would think you are old enough and awesome enough by now to realize this by now len. I am not getting your care and concern and compassion, due to your anger blindsiding you.
Again, what are you talking about? What part of THIS... IS... A... CHILD... MOLESTER... are you not understanding? I'm not asking anybody to think what I think. I'm saying that if you don't already think a child molester is scum then there's something wrong with you. That has nothing to do with anger issues. That just plain right. It's absolutely justified to think a child molester needs to go to jail. There's NOTHING that could have happened in your life that makes if okay for you to become a child molester. Even if you were molested as a child yourself. NOTHING makes that okay. Nothing.
Molest a child, go to jail. Period. End of story.
If you think there's such a thing as a good child molester or a mildly offensive child molester then you are fucking IN-SANE! There's only one kind of child molester and that's the terrible kind! No one should have care, concern and compassion for a child molester.
Don't we draw the line somewhere? Shouldn't that line be child molestation? I never thought in a million years I'd need to debate that with anyone. Dude, you really need to stop and think about what you're saying. You sound like you're defending a child molester and that makes me not know about you.
And don't even bother responding to this. You think there's leeway in child molestation and I don't. Even for someone as beloved as Michael Jackson. If it was ANYONE else at all we wouldn't even be having this debate.
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Post by clusium on Jul 30, 2019 23:14:49 GMT
Again, what are you talking about? What part of THIS... IS... A... CHILD... MOLESTER... are you not understanding? I'm not asking anybody to think what I think. I'm saying that if you don't already think a child molester is scum then there's something wrong with you. That has nothing to do with anger issues. That just plain right. It's absolutely justified to think a child molester needs to go to jail. There's NOTHING that could have happened in your life that makes if okay for you to become a child molester. Even if you were molested as a child yourself. NOTHING makes that okay. Nothing.
Molest a child, go to jail. Period. End of story.
If you think there's such a thing as a good child molester or a mildly offensive child molester then you are fucking IN-SANE! There's only one kind of child molester and that's the terrible kind! No one should have care, concern and compassion for a child molester.
Don't we draw the line somewhere? Shouldn't that line be child molestation? I never thought in a million years I'd need to debate that with anyone. Dude, you really need to stop and think about what you're saying. You sound like you're defending a child molester and that makes me not know about you.
And don't even bother responding to this. You think there's leeway in child molestation and I don't. Even for someone as beloved as Michael Jackson. If it was ANYONE else at all we wouldn't even be having this debate.
You don't even understand the argument lenlen because of your rabble mentality and it makes you appear ignorant. You are only projecting your own hostilities and even bullying others to take your tunneled vision and pigheaded approach and stance to something that is not as simpleminded and vapid as you are proving yourself to be. Jackson is DEAD, he can't molest anymore little boys because the good doctor killed him. ARE YOU SATISFIED NOW!?
With a phony like you—ah yes, you have really revealed your true colors here—if Michael Jackson was Michelle Jackson and she did the same thing to little boys, I doubt you would even be taking the same hostile approach because it would operate on a different dynamic to you because of the hypocritical double standards that you project.
Now take a chill pill lenlen and take your head out of your ass.
I cannot speak on behalf of lenten, but, personally, yes I would still take the very same approach. An adult who has sex with a kid, has committed a felony crime, whether the adult was a man or a woman; whether the child was the same sex or a different sex. Now, when it comes to sex with adults, & the perpetrator is a woman such as a teacher, etc., young boys have a tendency to think they are scoring BIG TIME. However, they do not realize that they are not emotionally or mentally prepared for the experience of sex, and thereby, any woman who commits this crime should be treated in the exact same kind of manner as her male counterparts.
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Post by Fox in the Snow on Jul 31, 2019 1:23:46 GMT
So you are asking others to take on board your own hate and anger issues and should think and feel like you, because you don't know how to deal with them yourself. These are your own insecurities. Go peddle them elsewhere.
You can't possibly know of what journey or life anyone else lives unless living through it yourself, or what we perceive as injustices happening for others, when consequence for our actions goes so much deeper than just man made human legalities and what we only think of as justice. Justice does not exist and I would think you are old enough and awesome enough by now to realize this by now len. I am not getting your care and concern and compassion, due to your anger blindsiding you.
Again, what are you talking about? What part of THIS... IS... A... CHILD... MOLESTER... are you not understanding? I'm not asking anybody to think what I think. I'm saying that if you don't already think a child molester is scum then there's something wrong with you. That has nothing to do with anger issues. That just plain right. It's absolutely justified to think a child molester needs to go to jail. There's NOTHING that could have happened in your life that makes if okay for you to become a child molester. Even if you were molested as a child yourself. NOTHING makes that okay. Nothing.
Molest a child, go to jail. Period. End of story.
If you think there's such a thing as a good child molester or a mildly offensive child molester then you are fucking IN-SANE! There's only one kind of child molester and that's the terrible kind! No one should have care, concern and compassion for a child molester.
Don't we draw the line somewhere? Shouldn't that line be child molestation? I never thought in a million years I'd need to debate that with anyone. Dude, you really need to stop and think about what you're saying. You sound like you're defending a child molester and that makes me not know about you.
And don't even bother responding to this. You think there's leeway in child molestation and I don't. Even for someone as beloved as Michael Jackson. If it was ANYONE else at all we wouldn't even be having this debate.
I realize this isn’t exactly what Toasted Cheese is saying, but perhaps it could be in part contributing to his view. Something I’ve certainly noticed is that in society there seems to be an uber level of hatred reserved for child molesters that goes above or beyond that which is projected toward perpetrators of other serious crimes like (adult on adult) rape or murder. I don’t want to start a debate about which of these is worse, and I’m not sure of your thoughts on this. Justice yes, but maybe there needs to be a tempering of the lynch mob mentality.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 31, 2019 16:43:25 GMT
Again, what are you talking about? What part of THIS... IS... A... CHILD... MOLESTER... are you not understanding? I'm not asking anybody to think what I think. I'm saying that if you don't already think a child molester is scum then there's something wrong with you. That has nothing to do with anger issues. That just plain right. It's absolutely justified to think a child molester needs to go to jail. There's NOTHING that could have happened in your life that makes if okay for you to become a child molester. Even if you were molested as a child yourself. NOTHING makes that okay. Nothing.
Molest a child, go to jail. Period. End of story.
If you think there's such a thing as a good child molester or a mildly offensive child molester then you are fucking IN-SANE! There's only one kind of child molester and that's the terrible kind! No one should have care, concern and compassion for a child molester.
Don't we draw the line somewhere? Shouldn't that line be child molestation? I never thought in a million years I'd need to debate that with anyone. Dude, you really need to stop and think about what you're saying. You sound like you're defending a child molester and that makes me not know about you.
And don't even bother responding to this. You think there's leeway in child molestation and I don't. Even for someone as beloved as Michael Jackson. If it was ANYONE else at all we wouldn't even be having this debate.
You don't even understand the argument lenlen because of your rabble mentality and it makes you appear ignorant. You are only projecting your own hostilities and even bullying others to take your tunneled vision and pigheaded approach and stance to something that is not as simpleminded and vapid as you are proving yourself to be. Jackson is DEAD, he can't molest anymore little boys because the good doctor killed him. ARE YOU SATISFIED NOW!?
With a phony like you—ah yes, you have really revealed your true colors here—if Michael Jackson was Michelle Jackson and she did the same thing to little boys, I doubt you would even be taking the same hostile approach because it would operate on a different dynamic to you because of the hypocritical double standards that you project.
Now take a chill pill lenlen and take your head out of your ass.
Okay, I’ll respond step by step, since you seem to have comprehension problems and like to make up your own story…
…bullying others to take your tunneled vision and pigheaded approach…
When did I do that? Point it out ONE instance of that in a link. I’ve never asked anyone to believe what I believe. You just made that up.
Jackson is DEAD, he can't molest anymore little boys because the good doctor killed him. ARE YOU SATISFIED NOW!?
But that has never been my point. YOU raised the issue of his being dead. I could care less if he’s dead or alive. YOU said that he paid a price. I’m saying he never paid a price because he never went to jail for what he did. What does that have to with him dying? He died without ever having paid for the crimes of child molestation. Period.
With a phony like you—ah yes, you have really revealed your true colors here—
Something else you’re just making up. I’ve only ever said ONE thing the whole time we’ve been posting. I haven’t flip flopped on anything I’ve said. How is that phony? What true colors are you talking about?
if Michael Jackson was Michelle Jackson and she did the same thing to little boys, I doubt you would even be taking the same hostile approach
Hell yes I would! Child molestation is child molestation no matter who does it, male OR female. The effects on the child victim are the same.
What have I ever said that would make you think otherwise? You TOTALLY just made that up! It’s like you’re a crazy person just making things up from thin air!
And as for my hostility... You're the weird who doesn't think a child molester deserves hostility. Its the one crime that is unforgivable because of the deep lifelong damage it does to the victim. They need jail.
…the hypocritical double standards that you project.
Again, I’ve only ever said ONE thing the whole time we’ve been posting. I haven’t flip flopped on anything I’ve said. How is that a double standard? Do you even know what the terms you’re using mean?
…take your head out of your ass.
You first.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Jul 31, 2019 17:00:11 GMT
Again, what are you talking about? What part of THIS... IS... A... CHILD... MOLESTER... are you not understanding? I'm not asking anybody to think what I think. I'm saying that if you don't already think a child molester is scum then there's something wrong with you. That has nothing to do with anger issues. That just plain right. It's absolutely justified to think a child molester needs to go to jail. There's NOTHING that could have happened in your life that makes if okay for you to become a child molester. Even if you were molested as a child yourself. NOTHING makes that okay. Nothing.
Molest a child, go to jail. Period. End of story.
If you think there's such a thing as a good child molester or a mildly offensive child molester then you are fucking IN-SANE! There's only one kind of child molester and that's the terrible kind! No one should have care, concern and compassion for a child molester.
Don't we draw the line somewhere? Shouldn't that line be child molestation? I never thought in a million years I'd need to debate that with anyone. Dude, you really need to stop and think about what you're saying. You sound like you're defending a child molester and that makes me not know about you.
And don't even bother responding to this. You think there's leeway in child molestation and I don't. Even for someone as beloved as Michael Jackson. If it was ANYONE else at all we wouldn't even be having this debate.
I realize this isn’t exactly what Toasted Cheese is saying, but perhaps it could be in part contributing to his view. Something I’ve certainly noticed is that in society there seems to be an uber level of hatred reserved for child molesters that goes above or beyond that which is projected toward perpetrators of other serious crimes like (adult on adult) rape or murder. I don’t want to start a debate about which of these is worse, and I’m not sure of your thoughts on this. Justice yes, but maybe there needs to be a tempering of the lynch mob mentality. Thing is, I see myself all alone posting against child molestation. I don't see a mob on my side. I don't see a ton of people joining me. In fact I'm quite surprised at the sympathy that child molestation is getting in response.
If you actually take a look at the threads you'll see that I'm the one who's alone, and that there are multiple posters attacking ME.
There's a mob alright, but I'm not in it. Its all of you guys trying to show sympathy for child molesters. Wassup wit dat?
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 31, 2019 17:54:53 GMT
I realize this isn’t exactly what Toasted Cheese is saying, but perhaps it could be in part contributing to his view. Something I’ve certainly noticed is that in society there seems to be an uber level of hatred reserved for child molesters that goes above or beyond that which is projected toward perpetrators of other serious crimes like (adult on adult) rape or murder. I don’t want to start a debate about which of these is worse, and I’m not sure of your thoughts on this. Justice yes, but maybe there needs to be a tempering of the lynch mob mentality. Thing is, I see myself all alone posting against child molestation. I don't see a mob on my side. I don't see a ton of people joining me. In fact I'm quite surprised at the sympathy that child molestation is getting in response.
If you actually take a look at the threads you'll see that I'm the one who's alone, and that there are multiple posters attacking ME.
There's a mob alright, but I'm not in it. Its all of you guys trying to show sympathy for child molesters. Wassup wit dat?
I'm with you, Len, but if you read back through my posts, I was so upset with the sympathy for child molesters that I stated that I was through posting about it. My cousins were victims, and committed suicide rather than live any longer with the shame, disbelief and lack of emotional support. I think these threads need to end. I was bumping every other thread in an attempt to have them fall off the bottom of the page so I no longer had to look at them, but here they are, again. You have made your point, and it is the right one. Take the position of being right, and not discussing it any further. Let these threads die from inattention. The longer you engage, the longer you and I and everyone else is subjected to this.
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