Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Sept 23, 2019 0:32:36 GMT
I don't remember it being said that Luke left the map in order to be found. Not saying there aren't issues with the new films, but that's not one I remember.... Why else leave a map, Jan? Maps usually serve a purpose of showing how to get somewhere (as well as details/information related to the geography of a location). Episode 8 Luke wouldn't have wanted anyone knowing about any of that. He didn't give a damn about being found or taking part in the fight. He didn't even go running when he heard Han had been killed. Episode 7 Luke left part of the map with R2-D2, and the other half he gave to Lor San Tekka. Why give his location away to two of his friends? To what purpose would that serve other than to be found? It's never stated that Luke left the map. For all we know, it could be a copy of the map he used to find the place....
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Post by kuatorises on Sept 23, 2019 15:27:04 GMT
And speaking of that, do you think that's going to follow the Obi Wan storylines Marvel has put out since acquiring the comics? No. I'll be honest too, I like some of them. I'm pretty far behind, but from what I read they are solid. But do I expect a movie or TV show to adhere to them? No. Live media is the moneymaker. They can and should do what they want. It will be interesting to see how that plays out. Disney's claim was that after April 2014, there are no more canon "tiers." Anything released after that date (books, comics, games, etc.) is canon. So those comics, if released since then, should be, at the very least, not contradicted by the new series.... Everyone knows this isn't true though. Lucasfilm said the same thing. It's just to appease to loyal readers. The books, comics, and other stuff make them money in between the movies; which is less of a factor now that movies are coming out so often.
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Post by kuatorises on Sept 23, 2019 16:50:35 GMT
It will be interesting to see how that plays out. Disney's claim was that after April 2014, there are no more canon "tiers." Anything released after that date (books, comics, games, etc.) is canon. So those comics, if released since then, should be, at the very least, not contradicted by the new series.... They can't even keep to their own established canon in these new movies: In Episode 7, Luke has left a map so he can be found. He even deemed it necessary to leave the map behind in pieces, so a person would have to spend time searching to find him (this shows a need for caution for his own life and the lives' of those close to him).
In Episode 8, he doesn't want to be bothered/found by anyone. Why leave the map?! Furthermore, why leave the map in pieces and waste people's time if he refuses to aid anyone? It doesn't make sense. Meanwhile, that map that was left for "kicks and giggles" by Luke brought about the slaughter of an entire village at the start of Episode 7, put Leia/Chewbacca in danger, and indirectly got Han Solo killed. Good job, Disney Luke! For a character that is suppose to be broken by his decisions prior to 7, he sure did continue screwing up royally even afterwards, and...for no reason at all! What a useless excuse of a Jedi Rian Johnson turned him into. I don't think you're interpreting the situation correctly. Luke abandoned R2, he didn't "leave clues" behind.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Sept 23, 2019 16:53:30 GMT
I don't think you're interpreting the situation correctly. Luke abandoned R2, he didn't "leave clues" behind. Yeah. His whole objection is based on the idea that Luke purposely left a map behind in order to be found. That is never stated or even implied anywhere in TFA....
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 23, 2019 20:39:57 GMT
It's never stated that Luke left the map. For all we know, it could be a copy of the map he used to find the place.... hmmmm ok, Jan. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that R2 and Tekka each had a part of the map, which when both parts were put together, aligned everything perfectly so they had all the information they needed to find Luke out of the vast galaxy. Even though no one knew where Luke was, it's just a coincidence they had this information. Maybe they found such crucial information in a box of fortune cookies? Perhaps it's just a coincidence that R2 had the map hidden within him just like Luke had done to him with his lightsaber in 6. Perhaps it's a coincidence the one character that Luke went on his adventures with, and shared his dreams/fears with, who was constantly loyal to him, would somehow get the information of where to find his master. Perhaps. Either way, Rian Johnson did a terrible job of building off of what was established in 7.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 23, 2019 20:47:29 GMT
I don't think you're interpreting the situation correctly. Luke abandoned R2, he didn't "leave clues" behind. Did he? He was shown to be saying goodbye to R2 in 7, following the destruction of the Jedi school/temple.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Sept 23, 2019 20:51:57 GMT
I don't think you're interpreting the situation correctly. Luke abandoned R2, he didn't "leave clues" behind. Did he? He was shown to be saying goodbye to R2 in 7, following the destruction of the Jedi school/temple. That's not a goodbye, that's a Jedi Mind Meld.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Sept 23, 2019 21:01:32 GMT
It's never stated that Luke left the map. For all we know, it could be a copy of the map he used to find the place.... hmmmm ok, Jan. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that R2 and Tekka each had a part of the map, which when both parts were put together, aligned everything perfectly so they had all the information they needed to find Luke out of the vast galaxy. Even though no one knew where Luke was, it's just a coincidence they had this information. Maybe they found such crucial information in a box of fortune cookies? Perhaps it's just a coincidence that R2 had the map hidden within him just like Luke had done to him with his lightsaber in 6. Perhaps it's a coincidence the one character that Luke went on his adventures with, and shared his dreams/fears with, who was constantly loyal to him, would somehow get the information of where to find his master. Perhaps. Either way, Rian Johnson did a terrible job of building off of what was established in 7. The fact that R2 did not just have the entire map implies that the information was hidden so Luke could not be found. And Tekka never said Luke gave him the map. We don't know how he acquired it or who had it before him.* *It is not necessary to know this to understand the movie, but external material reveals he did not receive the map from Luke.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 23, 2019 22:53:18 GMT
The fact that R2 did not just have the entire map implies that the information was hidden so Luke could not be found. And Tekka never said Luke gave him the map. We don't know how he acquired it or who had it before him.* *It is not necessary to know this to understand the movie, but external material reveals he did not receive the map from Luke. How is that implied? No one knew where Luke was - not even Leia. He was missing before the start of 7. There wasn't anyone to make the decision to hide the map...unless you're saying now that Luke hid it himself. In that case, why do that? Episode 8 Luke wanted to die. He should have just went running to Kylo, the one guy who wanted to kill him...win-win situation. In all fairness, Tekka doesn't say much of anything before getting struck down. It was a waste of a great actor. Apparently, Rian Johnson thought as much. He was way too busy lecturing people about eating meat, including superfluous characters/moments, and having Luke milk a big, dumb creature. He even cut away from showing us Luke's reaction to Han dying. What a joke.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Sept 23, 2019 23:41:50 GMT
The fact that R2 did not just have the entire map implies that the information was hidden so Luke could not be found. And Tekka never said Luke gave him the map. We don't know how he acquired it or who had it before him.* *It is not necessary to know this to understand the movie, but external material reveals he did not receive the map from Luke. How is that implied? No one knew where Luke was - not even Leia. Another implication that Luke didn't want to be found. Lol. What, do you think Luke purposely hid the pieces of the map hoping someone would solve it like some sort of Resident Evil puzzle? I won't argue the fact the Johnson dropped the ball in some areas, but it was always clear to me that Luke didn't want to be found by anyone....
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 24, 2019 1:21:34 GMT
Another implication that Luke didn't want to be found. Lol. What, do you think Luke purposely hid the pieces of the map hoping someone would solve it like some sort of Resident Evil puzzle? I won't argue the fact the Johnson dropped the ball in some areas, but it was always clear to me that Luke didn't want to be found by anyone.... Leia didn't need a map or to go anywhere to talk to her brother. They can speak to each other telepathically. I don't know Resident Evil, so the reference is lost on me. Whatever his intention, Episode 7 Luke did leave the map in pieces with two of his loyal friends - there's no one else who could have. I can't speak for Episode 8 Luke because the writing is terrible and the character's motivations don't make sense within mere seconds of 7 ending and 8 beginning. Dropped the ball? More like slaughtered both playing teams.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Sept 24, 2019 1:29:04 GMT
Whatever his intention, Episode 7 Luke did leave the map in pieces with two of his loyal friends - there's no one else who could have. Again, there's no indication that those pieces were left by Luke. Also, if he wanted people to find him, what's the point of making it a puzzle people need to figure out? The ultimate answer is that the map is not something Luke left behind. It's something he found. While the characters at the beginning call it a "map to Luke Skywalker", it's actually a map to the first Jedi Temple, that Luke had last been known to go looking for. Tekka somehow also found it, and that's how Luke is found when he doesn't want to be.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 24, 2019 1:48:35 GMT
Again, there's no indication that those pieces were left by Luke. Also, if he wanted people to find him, what's the point of making it a puzzle people need to figure out? They ultimate answer is that the map is not something Luke left behind. It's something he found. Tekka somehow also found it and that's how Luke is found when he doesn't want to be. Exactly. I brought that question up earlier. Rian Johnson failed to follow what was already established with Episode 7 Luke. He left the map in two pieces with Tekka and R2. It's much better to spread the map over the galaxy instead of putting all his eggs in one basket. Doing so sounds like a calculated man who wants to live to me. Then in 8, Rian tried to retcon this and it just fell flat. It didn't work. It doesn't make sense. His writing following what was already established just leads to a lot of confusion and questions from the audience: A secret map that leads to Skywalker, spread over the galaxy amongst his trusted friends, and he's on an island that has an ancient connection to the Force... but he's given up on the Force. He's given up on his friends. He's given up on his own life and wants to die...but he left a map in pieces so that Kylo and Snoke can't find him easily....because if they did find him, they would want to kill him...but he wants to die...but he won't go to them to die...but he left map...yeah... Tekka never says he found it though. See? There's no clarity in the writing. Building off of 7 could have been so great with a someone who understood Lucas' galaxy/characters/canon. Oh well.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Sept 24, 2019 1:52:42 GMT
Again, there's no indication that those pieces were left by Luke. Also, if he wanted people to find him, what's the point of making it a puzzle people need to figure out? They ultimate answer is that the map is not something Luke left behind. It's something he found. Tekka somehow also found it and that's how Luke is found when he doesn't want to be. Exactly. I brought that question up earlier. Rian Johnson failed to follow what was already established with Episode 7 Luke. He left the map in two pieces with Tekka and R2. It's much better to spread the map over the galaxy instead of putting all his eggs in one basket. Doing so sounds like a calculated man who wants to live to me. You're forcing square pegs into a round hole. I can't stop you. But the truth is, the map was a map to the first Jedi Temple that Tekka either found or also came into possession of. That's all. It's not a clue left behind by Luke and Abrams never intended it to be.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 24, 2019 2:00:28 GMT
While the characters at the beginning call it a "map to Luke Skywalker", it's actually a map to the first Jedi Temple, that Luke had last been known to go looking for. That's just retcon nonsense by Johnson because he can't collaborate. It was a map to Skywalker, and that's all it's referred to throughout 7. None of the characters care about it becoming the location of the temple in 8. Snoke wants Luke dead. Kylo wants Luke dead too. Kylo doesn't care about the temple. His whole idea is to "kill" the past - why would he care about the temple? It's the old and old needed to go, according to him. Not even Luke cared about the temple. He went to the island to die. Again, what Johnson cooked up fell flat.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Sept 24, 2019 2:25:19 GMT
None of the characters care about it becoming the location of the temple in 8. It didn't "become the location of the Jedi Temple" in episode 8. That's established when Han sees the map in TFA. Honestly, it's all but spelled out for you in that scene. Luke disappears looking for the Temple and someone else finds a map to it, effectively making it a "map to Skywalker". In fact, Abrams intended that R2's portion of the map was something he randomly downloaded from the Death Star in ANH: ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-answers-burning-question-about-r2-d2-star-wars-force-awakens/Add to the fact that the opening crawl in the movie explicitly states that Tekka discovered the map. It was not given to him. If there's a lack of clarity in the writing, it's the fault of JJ for not getting his idea across to you effectively. Johnson may have dropped the ball at some points, but this isn't one of them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2019 2:53:27 GMT
Again, there's no indication that those pieces were left by Luke. Also, if he wanted people to find him, what's the point of making it a puzzle people need to figure out? They ultimate answer is that the map is not something Luke left behind. It's something he found. Tekka somehow also found it and that's how Luke is found when he doesn't want to be. Exactly. I brought that question up earlier. Rian Johnson failed to follow what was already established with Episode 7 Luke. He left the map in two pieces with Tekka and R2. It's much better to spread the map over the galaxy instead of putting all his eggs in one basket. Doing so sounds like a calculated man who wants to live to me. Then in 8, Rian tried to retcon this and it just fell flat. It didn't work. It doesn't make sense. His writing following what was already established just leads to a lot of confusion and questions from the audience: A secret map that leads to Skywalker, spread over the galaxy amongst his trusted friends, and he's on an island that has an ancient connection to the Force... but he's given up on the Force. He's given up on his friends. He's given up on his own life and wants to die...but he left a map in pieces so that Kylo and Snoke can't find him easily....because if they did find him, they would want to kill him...but he wants to die...but he won't go to them to die...but he left map...yeah... Tekka never says he found it though. See? There's no clarity in the writing. Building off of 7 could have been so great with a someone who understood Lucas' galaxy/characters/canon. Oh well. Well said fellow fan. I'm Jake Skywalker by the way. I hid a piece of a map in R2 that showed where I went to hide. You know, cuz not making a map or a fragment at all would just be rude. But then a droid who never met me wanted to check R2 for it. Even though a droid who knew me for 30 years thought it was a ridiculous idea. Because, you know... his best friend has never carried secret plans before! Poor 3PO must've caught my Alzheimer's. I guess Leia must've caught my Alzheimer's too because she didn't think to check R2 in all that time even though she once hid secret plans in R2D2 herself. So then I go to a planet strong in the Force and decide to cut myself off from the Force. Because I want to die and never be found. Because the Jedi are a failure and it's time for them to come to an end. So I'll just wait for a padawan wannabe to show up before I decide to destroy the Jedi text. Because it makes no sense to destroy them before someone else might show up and get their hands on them. But as soon as I try to burn them up in a drunken stupor, Master Yoda shows up laughing and dancing, even drunker than I am. And he burns up the Jedi texts before I can! Then he tells me Rey didn't even need them anyway. Even though somehow she took them out of that fire before they ever burned, invisible to us all. Then Yoda tells me that failure is the greatest teacher. Except ever since I started failing in this trilogy I've learned nothing. And Rey fails less than any padawan who ever lived and she teaches herself! I am the greatest written Star Wars character in history!
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Sept 24, 2019 3:36:36 GMT
Well said fellow fan. I'm Jake Skywalker by the way. I hid a piece of a map in R2 that showed where I went to hide. You know, cuz not making a map or a fragment at all would just be rude. But then a droid who never met me wanted to check R2 for it. Even though a droid who knew me for 30 years thought it was a ridiculous idea. Because, you know... his best friend has never carried secret plans before! Poor 3PO must've caught my Alzheimer's. I guess Leia must've caught my Alzheimer's too because she didn't think to check R2 in all that time even though she once hid secret plans in R2D2 herself. So then I go to a planet strong in the Force and decide to cut myself off from the Force. Because I want to die and never be found. Because the Jedi are a failure and it's time for them to come to an end. So I'll just wait for a padawan wannabe to show up before I decide to destroy the Jedi text. Because it makes no sense to destroy them before someone else might show up and get their hands on them. But as soon as I try to burn them up in a drunken stupor, Master Yoda shows up laughing and dancing, even drunker than I am. And he burns up the Jedi texts before I can! Then he tells me Rey didn't even need them anyway. Even though somehow she took them out of that fire before they ever burned, invisible to us all. Then Yoda tells me that failure is the greatest teacher. Except ever since I started failing in this trilogy I've learned nothing. And Rey fails less than any padawan who ever lived and she teaches herself! I am the greatest written Star Wars character in history!
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Sept 24, 2019 16:51:39 GMT
It didn't "become the location of the Jedi Temple" in episode 8. That's established when Han sees the map in TFA. Honestly, it's all but spelled out for you in that scene. Luke disappears looking for the Temple and someone else finds a map to it, effectively making it a "map to Skywalker". In fact, Abrams intended that R2's portion of the map was something he randomly downloaded from the Death Star in ANH: ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-answers-burning-question-about-r2-d2-star-wars-force-awakens/Add to the fact that the opening crawl in the movie explicitly states that Tekka discovered the map. It was not given to him. If there's a lack of clarity in the writing, it's the fault of JJ for not getting his idea across to you effectively. Johnson may have dropped the ball at some points, but this isn't one of them.Ok, that's true. I didn't remember that. Well struck, Jan. I concede on this argument. Out of curiosity...you keep writing that, but don't actually elaborate on it. Where did he "drop the ball" to you?
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Sept 24, 2019 17:05:15 GMT
Ok, that's true. I didn't remember that. Well struck, Jan. I concede on this argument. Out of curiosity...you keep writing that, but don't actually elaborate on it. Where did he "drop the ball" to you? It's hard to say. I enjoy parts of TLJ, and think it's one of the most beautiful films visually. But Johnson missed the mark most in terms of tone and wanting to do his own thing to the detriment of the trilogy overall. It's his fault and Disney's for not reining him in. Issues I had with TLJ: - Inconsistent tone and overkill on some of the comedy (especially in the first 30 minutes) - Shoehorning in "lessons" to the detriment of the film (the whole Canto Bight sequence) - Dropping the ball with the Knights of Ren. It should have been them in the throne room scene. - RJ deciding to make Luke's death his "moment" to the detriment of the trilogy - The shoehorning of Holdo in. I like Laura Dern and the character is OK. But her moment would have been much more powerful had it been Admiral Ackbar. - Despite what JJ says, the obvious disregard for whoever had to clean up the mess for Episode IX. Things that bothered others, but not me: - I don't feel Luke's depiction was out of character - It's obvious Luke held back when Rey attacked him, so I don't buy the complaint about Rey being able to overpower Luke - I didn't mind Leia's Force moment. - I liked Rose.
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