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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 9, 2020 5:50:50 GMT
This ought to stir up something...
Husband Kimmel was demoted and driven out for being surprised at Pearl Harbor Walter Short was driven out for being surprised at Pearl Harbor Douglas MacArthur was given eight hours notice in the Philippines and was given high commands
Why? Do I think he should have been sacked, no. Do I think he should have been raked over the coals, yes. He sat for eight hours and did nothing while the Japanese wiped out his air forces. And he tried a half assed defense of the beaches at Lingayen Gulf instead of implementing War Plan Orange and immediately withdrawing to Bataan. Nothing could have saved the Philippines but Dugout Doug was colossally inept in 1941-1942. But he never got any flak.
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Post by truecristian on May 9, 2020 7:54:58 GMT
fake news
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Post by The Herald Erjen on May 9, 2020 8:14:42 GMT
Short went out quietly. Kimmel put up a fight, for all the good it did.
The wisest thing to do militarily would have been to withdraw to Bataan and Corregidor immediately after the Japanese attack, but politically that would have looked exactly like what it was; abandoning the Philippines.
I can think of several things to say about Dugout Doug (some good and some bad), but the hour is late. He left by order of the President. Years later he would defy a President....but you probably know how that turned out.
Good thread. I'm guessing that since you think nothing could have saved the Philippines then a reinforcement and/or evacuation of Wake Island was similarly doomed.
IIRC, Dwight Eisenhower drew up a plan for relief of the Philippines, but "Germany first" policy wrecked it.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 9, 2020 8:32:56 GMT
Short went out quietly. Kimmel put up a fight, for all the good it did. The wisest thing to do militarily would have been to withdraw to Bataan and Corregidor immediately after the Japanese attack, but politically that would have looked exactly like what it was; abandoning the Philippines. I can think of several things to say about Dugout Doug (some good and some bad), but the hour is late. He left by order of the President. Years later he would defy a President....but you probably know how that turned out. Good thread. I'm guessing that since you think nothing could have saved the Philippines then a reinforcement and/or evacuation of Wake Island was similarly doomed. IIRC, Dwight Eisenhower drew up a plan for relief of the Philippines, but "Germany first" policy wrecked it. Nothing at all could have saved the Philippines. Especially not after the US air power had been annihilated. Parked wingtip to wingtip like they were at Ford Field, eight hours earlier. That, to me, is indefensible. Even if the US Pacific Fleet hadn't been sunk in Hawaii, it would have been sunk on the way to Manila. Japan has more carriers and better airplanes to fly. If fact, if Japan hadn't sneaked up on Pearl, it would have been worse. Instead of resting on the shallow bottom of Pearl, the battleships would have been sent into the Pacific depths. But, like one author said, the Japanese attack rendered the dreadnaughts they were sinking as useful to a modern navy as Nelson's HMS Victory.
And we had to abandon the Philippines. Everyone knew that they were indefensible. The plan was to hold out at Bataan until the Fleet arrives, but that was a moot point. Maybe many to the troops could have been evacuated, instead of condemning the to the Death March and years of hell.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 9, 2020 8:37:21 GMT
Short went out quietly. Kimmel put up a fight, for all the good it did. The wisest thing to do militarily would have been to withdraw to Bataan and Corregidor immediately after the Japanese attack, but politically that would have looked exactly like what it was; abandoning the Philippines. I can think of several things to say about Dugout Doug (some good and some bad), but the hour is late. He left by order of the President. Years later he would defy a President....but you probably know how that turned out. Good thread. I'm guessing that since you think nothing could have saved the Philippines then a reinforcement and/or evacuation of Wake Island was similarly doomed. IIRC, Dwight Eisenhower drew up a plan for relief of the Philippines, but "Germany first" policy wrecked it.And, hoo boy, Ike didn't like MacArthur at all. Having to work for him for years would do that
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Post by The Herald Erjen on May 9, 2020 8:38:17 GMT
Short went out quietly. Kimmel put up a fight, for all the good it did. The wisest thing to do militarily would have been to withdraw to Bataan and Corregidor immediately after the Japanese attack, but politically that would have looked exactly like what it was; abandoning the Philippines. I can think of several things to say about Dugout Doug (some good and some bad), but the hour is late. He left by order of the President. Years later he would defy a President....but you probably know how that turned out. Good thread. I'm guessing that since you think nothing could have saved the Philippines then a reinforcement and/or evacuation of Wake Island was similarly doomed. IIRC, Dwight Eisenhower drew up a plan for relief of the Philippines, but "Germany first" policy wrecked it. Nothing at all could have saved the Philippines. Especially not after the US air power had been annihilated. Parked wingtip to wingtip like they were at Ford Field, eight hours earlier. That, to me, is indefensible. Even if the US Pacific Fleet hadn't been sunk in Hawaii, it would have been sunk on the way to Manila. Japan has more carriers and better airplanes to fly. If fact, if Japan hadn't sneaked up on Pearl, it would have been worse. Instead of resting on the shallow bottom of Pearl, the battleships would have been sent into the Pacific depths. But, like one author said, the Japanese attack rendered the dreadnaughts they were sinking as useful to a modern navy as Nelson's HMS Victory.
And we had to abandon the Philippines. Everyone knew that they were indefensible. The plan was to hold out at Bataan until the Fleet arrives, but that was a moot point. Maybe many to the troops could have been evacuated, instead of condemning the to the Death March and years of hell.
Blame Roosevelt. He knew it was coming and let it happen.
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Post by bravomailer on May 9, 2020 16:25:09 GMT
MacArthur has been Army Chief-of-Staff, so canning him might have been far more difficult and impolitic than Kimmel and Short.
As I recall, Col Eisenhower studied the issue of sending troops to the Philippines and determined it was a lost cause.
Of his time serving on MacArthur's staff, Ike once said, "I studied dramatics under him."
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Post by bravomailer on May 9, 2020 16:39:37 GMT
Eisenhower on hearing that Truman canned MacArthur
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 21, 2020 0:19:38 GMT
Nothing at all could have saved the Philippines. Especially not after the US air power had been annihilated. Parked wingtip to wingtip like they were at Ford Field, eight hours earlier. That, to me, is indefensible. Even if the US Pacific Fleet hadn't been sunk in Hawaii, it would have been sunk on the way to Manila. Japan has more carriers and better airplanes to fly. If fact, if Japan hadn't sneaked up on Pearl, it would have been worse. Instead of resting on the shallow bottom of Pearl, the battleships would have been sent into the Pacific depths. But, like one author said, the Japanese attack rendered the dreadnaughts they were sinking as useful to a modern navy as Nelson's HMS Victory.
And we had to abandon the Philippines. Everyone knew that they were indefensible. The plan was to hold out at Bataan until the Fleet arrives, but that was a moot point. Maybe many to the troops could have been evacuated, instead of condemning the to the Death March and years of hell.
Blame Roosevelt. He knew it was coming and let it happen. Everyone knew it was coming to the Philippines. But Dugout Doug smoked his ridiculous pipe and sat with his thumb up his ass.
Until Inchon, he was an overrated collection of good press clippings. Like I said, the loss of the Philippines was inevitable in 1941-1942, but Mac seemed to open the door and let the Japanese in. His New Guinea Campaign was middling. He was right in taking the Philippines over Formosa, but he didn't run that well. God knows how he would have done in Operation Olympic.
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