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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 14, 2020 12:34:30 GMT
"It's just you and me now, sport. I'm gonna find you, goddamnit!"Whole families are being slaughtered, as the result of a new and frightening serial killer, who's horrifying and unpredictable actions puts the local police into a chaotic struggle against the clock. As a last desperate resort, the police finds no other choice than to put their hopes into the hands of former FBI bloodhound Will Graham (William Petersen), who decides to take on the risky task of putting not only his mental health, but also his own life on the line, for one final manhunt.I was somewhat inspired if you will, by the little but very nice conversation or chat I had with Dazed a few days ago, in the Near Dark (1987) thread, and where I suddenly found another admirer of this very special mid 80s crime-thriller, and I know I have started up an earlier thread of it, back in 2017, but that one, I guess is now "lost" among with most of the crime section in the Film General board. Anyway, after searching for Manhunter (1986), most of the "discussions" that arised, were mostly of those that would just "compare" it to Red Dragon (2002), and I think it deserves better than to only have people going along with either "Yes or "No". And another reason to why I wanted to bring back Manhunter, was that I saw the thread of the very underrated mid 90s crime-thriller Copycat (1995), and it would be interesting and nice to see if there are any other fans of Michael Mann's stylished, slow-moving yet very chilling take on Thomas Harris book, Red Dragon. I remember back in the day, when I first caught it on late night cable, and since I already knew very well the whole Hannibal Lecter "trilogy" starring Anthony Hopkins, I was not really sure of what to expect, beside that this 1980s version, seemed to be mostly thrown around as "the one with the other Lecter". My only other "knowledge" came through a couple of very short, 20-25 seconds tv commercials, which had appeared a few days before I saw the film, and it seemed like who ever did that truly horrible editing job, tried very hard to make it look like it was a fast paced and explosive "tv movie" version of Silence of the Lambs, and that was pretty much all I had of "backround" to go in with. I guess the word "disappointed" is wrong to use here, but I was such a big of a fan of the other (not Red Dragon) two Hannibal Lecter films at that time, so I just, well, the slow pace and seeing Dr. Hannibal Lecter now as barely a minor part, may have played a part in why there was a bit of mixed feeling at first. However, I really enjoyed the whole stunning and very impressive atmosphere it had going so strong, specially the use of details, colors, lights, camera angles, music and of course Tom Noonan's incredible performance as Francis Dollarhyde. I knew, that I wanted to see it again, later on. It kind of got "stuck" with me, in a way few other films has, either before or after. I guess the word "haunting" sure is a good match, and it was probably one of my very few but still wisest decisions, when I re-watchet it, and then I just fell completely in love with the world of Michael Mann, and where I think Manhunter still stands as my favorite, not just that of Mann's movies, but a personal and very special favorite, that never disappoints me. Over the last 10-15 years (or so) I am very happy to see that the film and its legacy has really gotten much more of the acclaim and rightfully so, that I think it should have been given way earlier. However, at the time, I guess with few or no really famous or big stars among the cast, a director who was probably more known as "the guy behind the look of Miami Vice" and, then it never seemed to hit off, a few years later Silence of the Lambs came out, pretty much changed the entire crime-thriller genre over night, and won huge awards and it did not put Manhunter into a more "favorable" light right there and then, as it still was often "written off" as this low budget tv-movie and not much else. But it really was not anything like just another "typical b-movie", instead Manhunter was a groundbreaking movie, specially when it comes to the whole crime or thriller genre, when focusing very closely on the police work, and their tecnhiques or how to build up a case, pretty much from the start and then slowly build it on from there, not just rush through it all, and go straight for the action and sexy scenes. No, it was a very original and creative film that took chances, and sadly it seemed to get a little "lost" and never really found its audience when being released at the cinemas back in the day. Still, the film thankfully become a bit of a late night cable favorite, or so I have often read and heard, during the 90s, and I guess somewhere along the way, that love and appreciation would just bring it out further, to an much wider audience of fans, and suddenly, much later on, you have all these modern TV-shows who certainly have been influenced more than just a little, by Michael Mann's film, and which also would pave way for William Petersen's well deserved "comeback" in, almost 2 decades later on. An incredible well done music video, that makes great use of the powerful song, Strong As I Am by The Prime Movers, and sums up the film and its atmosphere, tone and characters in a fantastic way.
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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 14, 2020 12:42:42 GMT
By the way, for those interested, here is a bit of the The Director's Chair that have Robert Rodriguez interview his favorite directors, and episode 8 stars Michael Mann, and from 10:43 and up to around 19:44 they discuss Manhunter, and I really enjoyed this show and think the John Carpenter and Michael Mann episodes are my favorites.
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Post by politicidal on May 14, 2020 14:57:42 GMT
6/10. More of a RED DRAGON guy. I don't like Brian Cox as Hannibal Lecter. He lacks the air of sophistication and just seems like some thug.
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Post by movielover on May 14, 2020 15:14:31 GMT
9/10 - I prefer Manhunter to Red Dragon.
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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 14, 2020 16:08:41 GMT
6/10. More of a RED DRAGON guy. I don't like Brian Cox as Hannibal Lecter. He lacks the air of sophistication and just seems like some thug. I'm sorry to hear that, but I guess it is maybe why I so much enjoy the Lector we meet up in Manhunter, as he is not always the "center of attention", merely a minor part, who is played out in a very different, colder and more "normal" way than the iconic version which is of course, is done so incredibly later on by Anthony Hopkins. But, still, Cox and his more towned down approach, is, well for me, very disturbing, as yes, he may look more like some "regular" guy, but is surely anything but normal, as we so clearly witness during the first meeting between Graham and Lecter, and where you can sense early on, of how much disgust and anxiety it causes poor Will, to go back and re-open the old wounds, and where the mental scars are still very well with him, and which have him almost break down in a panic attack, right after their little "rende-vouz". It would be interesting to see what could have been, if Cox had played a bigger part, still I am glad it did not happen, as maybe it was just for the best, and we all know what came afterwards with Silence of the Lambs. Speaking of Red Dragon, I remember hearing or reading about the reason to the whole name change back in the mid 80s, was because several other "Dragon" titled films, had become huge box office failures, so instead of getting drawn into that "camp", I guess somebody thought of the idea of "Manhunter" and that it might sit more well with the audience. Sadly, it did not help much either, and of course back then, I guess the character Dr. Hannibal Lecter was maybe not as popular as later on, so it was not a movie that would probably attract a huge number of movie going people. There are also several different cuts or versions of the film, I own (I think) all three, but always come back to the theatrical version, or the one that all my DVD copies has down as that version, while the others somehow just rarely get seen.
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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 14, 2020 16:23:50 GMT
9/10 - I prefer Manhunter to Red Dragon. I am not gonna "fell into the whole old IMDb Red Dragon vs Manhunter trap" where it usually ends up in "total war", but yeah, I very much more favorize Manhunter, any day and time, to that of Red Dragon. Still, I have yet to have read the novel or book by Harris, and I had the chance of picking it up earlier during the winter, but somehow I forgot about it, and when I was planning on returning next week, well, because of this rather special situation the last few months, the store closed, and I think still are, so hopefully that copy might lie around when they re-open during the late spring or early summer.
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Post by wmcclain on May 15, 2020 16:45:21 GMT
Manhunter (1986), directed by Michael Mann. This first filming of a Hannibal Lecter story (spelled "Lecktor" this time) is a serial killer police procedural. We have an FBI profiler who can get into the mind of a psycho-killer (much to his own psychic distress) and, as a bonus resource, a bona-fide genius serial killer in captivity. Who can be useful if you can cope with his mind games. Beware: Hannibal the Cannibal has made contact with the new killer and can use him as a weapon. I hadn't seen this since it was new and remember being impressed with its tension, with how much horror they were able to summon with little blood or explicitness. The mythology has been so developed since and taken such a gruesome turn that this first installment almost doesn't seem like part of the series. It is more real-world than The Silence of the Lambs (1991), which ventures into fantasy-action territory. The plot is spoken aloud which is usually bad writing both in films and in books, but a police procedural is all about the plot, the actual steps involved in solving a crime, so maybe it is justified this time. The story is elevated by Graham's race to protect his family and keep himself sane. Is the cinematography a bit self-consciously posed? For the score I thought some of it sounded like Tangerine Dream, who Mann used for Thief (1981) earlier, but I don't see any connection on the soundtrack listing. Then I thought "this sounds like Shriekback" and they have three credits for the film. The band was formed that same year. Michael Mann also wrote the screenplay adaptation from the book Red Dragon, which was again filmed under that title in 2002. Same cinematographer. Available on Blu-ray.
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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 16, 2020 8:33:08 GMT
This first filming of a Hannibal Lecter story (spelled "Lecktor" this time) is a serial killer police procedural. We have an FBI profiler who can get into the mind of a psycho-killer (much to his own psychic distress) and, as a bonus resource, a bona-fide genius serial killer in captivity. Who can be useful if you can cope with his mind games. Beware: Hannibal the Cannibal has made contact with the new killer and can use him as a weapon. I hadn't seen this since it was new and remember being impressed with its tension, with how much horror they were able to summon with little blood or explicitness. The mythology has been so developed since and taken such a gruesome turn that this first installment almost doesn't seem like part of the series. It is more real-world than The Silence of the Lambs (1991), which ventures into fantasy-action territory. The plot is spoken aloud which is usually bad writing both in films and in books, but a police procedural is all about the plot, the actual steps involved in solving a crime, so maybe it is justified this time. The story is elevated by Graham's race to protect his family and keep himself sane. Is the cinematography a bit self-consciously posed? For the score I thought some of it sounded like Tangerine Dream, who Mann used for Thief (1981) earlier, but I don't see any connection on the soundtrack listing. Then I thought "this sounds like Shriekback" and they have three credits for the film. The band was formed that same year. Michael Mann also wrote the screenplay adaptation from the book Red Dragon, which was again filmed under that title in 2002. Same cinematographer.Available on Blu-ray. I guess stuff like that might be a bit of a hit or miss with many, the whole "spoken aloud" part, but I really enjoyed it, and thought Will Graham and his little "chats" all by himself, were very well and intensely done by William Petersen. In a way, it worked (for me that is) probably much better than just to go for the usual voice-over part routine, that I think the 2002 version sadly relied far too heavy on. The first time I saw it, I also thought immediately about the german band and their unique style of music and movie scores at that time, however it also has a bit of a Pink Floyd - Comfortably Numb sound to it, which I guess is of little "coincidence", as I remember also that Thief (1981) had a end theme (I think by Craig Safan) which sounded very much like the classic Floyd number mentioned above, and it fitted very well with the style and tone to that of the early and gritty but stylished films of Michael Mann. Still, I think Michel Rubini did a truly great job on getting the job done, by delivering the haunting and uplifting sounds of the heavy synth-driven Graham's Theme, that is one of my all time favorite 80s themes. Yeah, the Shrieback cuts kind of "stole" the show for me as well, and which fitted so well in with the movie and its atmosphere, specially during the whole sensual and dreamy tiger scene and then later on with The Big Hush part, where Dollarhyde finally lets Reba touch his face. But, well, while she was sleeping that is. Still, two very powerful and beautiful movie scenes. Dante Spinotti and Michael Mann were quite the team back then, and of course would later on continue on with their impressive work, but Manhunter will always hold a very special place for me, as it contains so many stunning images and scenes, where the use of colors, lights and locations are quite something else. Anyway, thanks so much for you reply here, and also the pictures that you brought along with you.
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Dazed
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Post by Dazed on May 16, 2020 23:40:15 GMT
I think one of the important differences between Manhunter and Red Dragon (film) is as steffan (sorry haven't learned tagging yet) points out, the Lecktor character isn't the main character and nor should be be. He isn't a huge character in the novel, he's an important character but features only briefly. He's there to teach us about Will and give us insight into Dollarhyde. Manhunter is faithful to that.
I don't believe Thomas Harris ever wanted to explore the Hannibal character too deeply. It would have and some would argue did destroy the enigma of the killer who was supposed to be indefinable.
With that said I think Hannibal (film) was beautifully made and acted and I prefer it to The Silence of the Lambs.
I dislike Red Dragon (film) because it insisted on making Lector the main character and to add insult to injury we had an ageing Anthony Hopkins playing a supposed younger Lector!
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Post by Prime etc. on May 17, 2020 2:50:27 GMT
I prefer Cox as Lector.
What surprised me about it was how much like a Universal horror film it was--with the Dollarhyde character and the blind woman. The one line Peterson has about how someone like that was tortured since an infant was rather haunting, and you can see little performance quirks like Dollarhyde being jumpy when someone entered a room. And of course the tragedy that his nature makes him misinterpret what he saw on the doorstep-as well as her pathetic efforts to defend herself from him.
The most jarring thing was Chris Elliot in the cast.
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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 17, 2020 8:45:35 GMT
I think one of the important differences between Manhunter and Red Dragon (film) is as steffan (sorry haven't learned tagging yet) points out, the Lecktor character isn't the main character and nor should be be. He isn't a huge character in the novel, he's an important character but features only briefly. He's there to teach us about Will and give us insight into Dollarhyde. Manhunter is faithful to that. I don't believe Thomas Harris ever wanted to explore the Hannibal character too deeply. It would have and some would argue did destroy the enigma of the killer who was supposed to be indefinable. With that said I think Hannibal (film) was beautifully made and acted and I prefer it to The Silence of the Lambs. I dislike Red Dragon (film) because it insisted on making Lector the main character and to add insult to injury we had an ageing Anthony Hopkins playing a supposed younger Lector! Nothing to worry about, as I just only learned (always been a bit of a slow learner) or found out about it, thanks to a recent thread in General Discussion, and one just have to copy the name that is placed below each members avatar/images and that starts with an @ and is followed by that users name. Copy it, and then type it in the create a new post section, and it just works out by itself or petty much so. I find it very interesting that Lecter (or Lecktor) is not such a big part in the novel, that was new to me, but I have yet to read it, so with that in mind, I am actually even more excited of doing so. I guess the incredible stardom and popularity to that of Hopkins later part, went on to make him almost into a kind of "anti-heroic" figure, that people just could not get enough of, and were no longer afraid of, but actually began to cheer on, and while I sure do enjoy seeing more of Lecter in Hannibal (2001), I think it went maybe a bit too far at times, and it took away some of the edge or intensity of the earlier film (Silence of the Lambs), and people only wanted more of Hannibal, and I guess less of the police work and all that. Still, I enjoyed it and somehow I have seen it maybe more than the other two Hopkins/Lecter films, in recent years. Anyway, glad to see you onboard.
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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 17, 2020 9:00:35 GMT
I prefer Cox as Lector. What surprised me about it was how much like a Universal horror film it was--with the Dollarhyde character and the blind woman. The one line Peterson has about how someone like that was tortured since an infant was rather haunting, and you can see little performance quirks like Dollarhyde being jumpy when someone entered a room.And of course the tragedy that his nature makes him misinterpret what he saw on the doorstep-as well as her pathetic efforts to defend herself from him. The most jarring thing was Chris Elliot in the cast. Yeah, I think Dazed put it down so well, in (I think the Near Dark thread) specially the part where a female co-worker is talking to Dollarhyde, and he instinctively covers his face or scar. I also thought it was quite amusing to see Chris Elliot (of all people) in such a different type of movie, at least as to what he seems to usually end up doing. The funny thing was that I had seen him the day before (watching Manhunter for the first time) in the hilarious slapstick comedy that is Kingpin (1996), and his little and sleazy part in that movie, always makes me crack up. Love it when his face just suddenly appears out of nowwhere right into the glass to that of Roy Munson (Woody Harrelson).
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Post by Prime etc. on May 17, 2020 9:37:52 GMT
I knew him from Letterman!
And I will be right here, making your life... a living hell. I see you Dave....
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Post by Prime etc. on May 17, 2020 9:47:15 GMT
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Dazed
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Post by Dazed on May 17, 2020 19:02:24 GMT
stefancrosscoe Hi and thanks for the assistance. Yes, in the novel Red Dragon, Lecter has the same impact scene for scene (more or less) as he does in Manhunter. If memory serves that is! Will visits him, has a phone call with him and he's naturally mentioned once or twice. I think you'll enjoy it very much, Harris provides a more thorough backstory to Dollarhyde. I'm so delighted to be talking about my favourite film again, thank you😊
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Post by dirtypillows on May 18, 2020 1:57:35 GMT
I love "Manhunter". It's one of my top ten movies from the 1980s. I prefer it in every way to the unremarkable "Red Dragon".
William Peterson > Ed Norton Tom Noonan > Ralph Fiennes Brian Cox > whoever it was Joan Allen > Emily Watson
Also, I love the cinematography and the score from "Manhunter" - a riveting and mesmerizing film going experience.
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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 18, 2020 9:13:12 GMT
stefancrosscoe Hi and thanks for the assistance. Yes, in the novel Red Dragon, Lecter has the same impact scene for scene (more or less) as he does in Manhunter. If memory serves that is! Will visits him, has a phone call with him and he's naturally mentioned once or twice. I think you'll enjoy it very much, Harris provides a more thorough backstory to Dollarhyde. I'm so delighted to be talking about my favourite film again, thank you😊 No problem. I am happy to see you taking part here, as I kind of hoped you would join in, as you seem very well informed, not only about the movie and its characters but also about the original book/novel by Thomas Harris. Sadly, I guess I will just have to wait bit further (maybe 2-3 weeks) as the store where I am very certain I saw it placed at, is now been closed since march because of, well, the rather special situation we have and will likely re-open very soon. But, I guess some things are just worth to wait for and hopefully that is correct with Harris Red Dragon. Speaking of Dollarhyde, I remember a rather interesting interview with Tom Noonan (it might be from the 2001 or 2002 DVD special edition relased) and where he talked a little about how it was originally intended for him to have this huge tattoo of a red dragon painted on his chest, but that Michael Mann felt it kind of, I guess become "distracted" or something, and decided that they would not use it. And to be honest, I think it was a pretty good decision.
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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 18, 2020 9:25:02 GMT
Also, I love the cinematography and the score from "Manhunter" - a riveting and mesmerizing film going experience. There are just so many memorable and stunning scenes and images taking place, so, kind of hard to just pick out one or two. But I love how Michael Mann and Dante Spinotti, over and over again, managed to combine both the gruesome and the spectacular, but without ever going for the "cheap" thrills or just fasten things up. Instead they would often let the imagination and surroundings play a huge part in creating a very chilling or unsettling scenery, and few scenes I think combines this as well, as the little but very impressive one, where Will is probably taking a little "nap", most likely because he is over worked and exhausted, and ends up "dreaming" away into a little visit to paradise along with Molly, but are suddenly brought straight back to the horrors of reality when he hears "screaming" from his fellow passengers, and the music, images and, well, just brilliant movie making.
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Dazed
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Post by Dazed on May 18, 2020 14:50:44 GMT
stefancrosscoe Hi and thanks for the assistance. Yes, in the novel Red Dragon, Lecter has the same impact scene for scene (more or less) as he does in Manhunter. If memory serves that is! Will visits him, has a phone call with him and he's naturally mentioned once or twice. I think you'll enjoy it very much, Harris provides a more thorough backstory to Dollarhyde. I'm so delighted to be talking about my favourite film again, thank you😊 No problem. I am happy to see you taking part here, as I kind of hoped you would join in, as you seem very well informed, not only about the movie and its characters but also about the original book/novel by Thomas Harris. Sadly, I guess I will just have to wait bit further (maybe 2-3 weeks) as the store where I am very certain I saw it placed at, is now been closed since march because of, well, the rather special situation we have and will likely re-open very soon. But, I guess some things are just worth to wait for and hopefully that is correct with Harris Red Dragon. Speaking of Dollarhyde, I remember a rather interesting interview with Tom Noonan (it might be from the 2001 or 2002 DVD special edition relased) and where he talked a little about how it was originally intended for him to have this huge tattoo of a red dragon painted on his chest, but that Michael Mann felt it kind of, I guess become "distracted" or something, and decided that they would not use it. And to be honest, I think it was a pretty good decision. I'm wondering if second-hand shops and charity/thrift stores will re-open, I love those places. I remember that interview with Noonan too. I agree that the tattoo would have been a needless distraction but imagine the time the body painting would have taken. Speaking of the Dragon the scene at the end where Dollarhyde is lying dead with two growing blood wings is a nice touch. I believe Mann shot the film in sequence and some of the cast didn't meet Noonan until filming. I think I own about 3 different edits of Manhunter all slightly different, scenes omitted or unseen footage. Also one version where a kind and gifted soul spliced all of this together and posted the link on IMDb. I don't usually get movies that way but it was too good to miss!
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Post by stefancrosscoe on May 18, 2020 19:10:20 GMT
Yeah, I sure miss second-hands shops, as I have 2 or 3 regular shops that I usually visits once a week, and there are always lots of new movies, CDs, books, comics and other stuff, that a lot of the time are almost completely brand new, not even unwrapped out of their original plastic sealing, and the prices are so low, that you can get 15-20 movies or the amount of CDs for what many other music/movie stores would take for just one or two brand new movies/CDs. But the books and comics are really, really cheap, and there are just so many lying around, and sometimes I can spend hours just browsing through, never know what to find, or sometimes even look for, but I do never leave the store empty handed, that I do know. The scene whit Noonan or Dollarhyda lying on the floor, with his two bloody wings, I somehow did not pick that one up the first time, but I guess it is one of those you catch later on, and it was quite interesting to first notice that, and again Michael Mann is great with the delivery of details. I have the Anchor Bay (2001) 3 Disc DVD special Edition, but somehow I tend to favorize the first DVD I bought, which is the scandinavian region 2 copy, that I do believe is the theatrical cut. The version you were telling about, that spliced all the unseen footage together, that sure sound like an interesting watch. I remember that there was a fan site of Manhunter, who also happened to have a rather huge Miami Vice info section, and I think there were some "connections" going on there, not just with Michael Mann, but some of the actors from the tv-show, I think Michael Talbott (Stanley Switek) had the small part of a house seller, who lets Will Graham inside one of the houses that Dollarhyde had "visited", but that also Miami Vice had an episode, I think it was called "Shadow in the Dark", that surely felt very much like it was at times a tv-episode, sort of, of Manhunter. I think there was a bit more, but it has been so long since I last visited that site (sadly I have no clue what the sites name was, beside of course it had Manhunter as part of the name), not sure if it excist any longer, but it was really interesting place, with lots of info, and beautiful pictures and interviews. Also, there I think I first got a hold of the incredible good news, that the official soundtrack would get a release on CD back in late 2009 or early 2010.
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