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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jun 9, 2020 0:01:41 GMT
Just how good of a general was he?
I had a history professor in college who compared the CW in Virginia to Warner Brother cartoons. Huh? WTF?
He likened Lee to Bugs Bunny with this question, "Was Bugs that clever or were his opponents that stupid?" How much intelligence did it take to thwart Elmer Fudd or Yosemite Sam? He said that Lee was a capable commander but how tough was it to run rings around McClellan, Pope, Burnside and Hooker. When he finally was faced with commanders who weren't blithering idiots, Meade and Grant, he lost. He even looked bad a couple times. The "Mule Shoe" assault at Spotsylvania should have wrecked Lee, but the subordinants (and some good moves by John B. Gordon) saved him. On the North Anna river, he had Grant with his command split and with the two wings with their backs or a river. But he couldn't pull the trigger.
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Post by politicidal on Jun 9, 2020 14:26:10 GMT
Good but evidently like Rommel, he met his Patton. Frederick Douglass had this gem to say when Lee died.
“We can scarcely take up a newspaper . . . that is not filled with nauseating flatteries” of Lee, from which “it would seem . . . that the soldier who kills the most men in battle, even in a bad cause, is the greatest Christian, and entitled to the highest place in heaven.”
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jun 9, 2020 19:49:46 GMT
Good but evidently like Rommel, he met his Patton. Frederick Douglass had this gem to say when Lee died. “We can scarcely take up a newspaper . . . that is not filled with nauseating flatteries” of Lee, from which “it would seem . . . that the soldier who kills the most men in battle, even in a bad cause, is the greatest Christian, and entitled to the highest place in heaven.” We have a tendency to put a general who kicked our asses on a pedestal. Lee, Rommel, Yamamoto (general, admiral, whatever). And to say their hearts weren't in it. You can't read about Lee without reading about his 'agonizing" decision to resign his commission. I've read how Rommel supported the Stauffenburg Plot but there's little evidence. He never got over his admiration for Hitler. Yamamoto's "Sleeping giant" quote is well known.
And you always read how Lee had a sixth sense, how he could read an opponent like a book. But he couldn't. His misread McClellan in Maryland. Hooker had him by the short ones until he stopped in the Wilderness. He had no clue what Hooker and Meade were doing during the Gettysburg Campaign. He completely misread Grant twice during the Spotysvania battle. And my cat could have read John Pope and Ambrose Burnside.
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Post by truecristian on Jun 10, 2020 3:57:37 GMT
But our relationship ended when my partner experienced what must have been a ... "I began to see men in general as this big group of bumbling fellows who just ... "like putting their dying plants up on big pedestals or using cardboard boxes as ... or the instructions to the kick-ass speakers he just bought for his laptop/iPod.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 10, 2020 9:35:43 GMT
Just how good of a general was he?
I had a history professor in college who compared the CW in Virginia to Warner Brother cartoons. Huh? WTF?
He likened Lee to Bugs Bunny with this question, "Was Bugs that clever or were his opponents that stupid?" How much intelligence did it take to thwart Elmer Fudd or Yosemite Sam? He said that Lee was a capable commander but how tough was it to run rings around McClellan, Pope, Burnside and Hooker. When he finally was faced with commanders who weren't blithering idiots, Meade and Grant, he lost. He even looked bad a couple times. The "Mule Shoe" assault at Spotsylvania should have wrecked Lee, but the subordinants (and some good moves by John B. Gordon) saved him. On the North Anna river, he had Grant with his command split and with the two wings with their backs or a river. But he couldn't pull the trigger.
Well, it could be said that he's the general who lost the war, but it could also be said that the war wouldn't have lasted as long as it did without him.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jun 10, 2020 18:02:25 GMT
Just how good of a general was he?
I had a history professor in college who compared the CW in Virginia to Warner Brother cartoons. Huh? WTF?
He likened Lee to Bugs Bunny with this question, "Was Bugs that clever or were his opponents that stupid?" How much intelligence did it take to thwart Elmer Fudd or Yosemite Sam? He said that Lee was a capable commander but how tough was it to run rings around McClellan, Pope, Burnside and Hooker. When he finally was faced with commanders who weren't blithering idiots, Meade and Grant, he lost. He even looked bad a couple times. The "Mule Shoe" assault at Spotsylvania should have wrecked Lee, but the subordinants (and some good moves by John B. Gordon) saved him. On the North Anna river, he had Grant with his command split and with the two wings with their backs or a river. But he couldn't pull the trigger.
Well, it could be said that he's the general who lost the war, but it could also be said that the war wouldn't have lasted as long as it did without him. The war wouldn't have lasted that long if McClellan had thought "I have an advantage of 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. I can just run over the Rebels". Yeah Pinkerton told him that Joe Johnston had 200,000 men but Little Mac should have been able to figure out how tough it was to feed and water an army of 100,000 men.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jun 12, 2020 10:16:10 GMT
Well, it could be said that he's the general who lost the war, but it could also be said that the war wouldn't have lasted as long as it did without him. The war wouldn't have lasted that long if McClellan had thought "I have an advantage of 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. I can just run over the Rebels". Yeah Pinkerton told him that Joe Johnston had 200,000 men but Little Mac should have been able to figure out how tough it was to feed and water an army of 100,000 men.
Pinkerton got the numbers wrong?
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Post by sadsaak on Jun 13, 2020 5:02:51 GMT
The war wouldn't have lasted that long if McClellan had thought "I have an advantage of 3 to 1 or 4 to 1. I can just run over the Rebels". Yeah Pinkerton told him that Joe Johnston had 200,000 men but Little Mac should have been able to figure out how tough it was to feed and water an army of 100,000 men.
Pinkerton got the numbers wrong? Or maybe Pinkerton gave McClellan the numbers he wanted to see. No one really knew what little Mac wanted to do with the Army of the Potomac, other than McClellan and maybe not even him.
Lee was a sort of Confederate Hannibal in that he could never hope to beat the Union militarily. All he could do was try to make the North bleed so badly that it would agree to a negotiated peace. And he failed in this because terrible as the casualties he inflicted upon the Union armies were, the North could always find replacements.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jun 13, 2020 5:25:03 GMT
Pinkerton got the numbers wrong? Or maybe Pinkerton gave McClellan the numbers he wanted to see. No one really knew what little Mac wanted to do with the Army of the Potomac, other than McClellan and maybe not even him.
Lee was a sort of Confederate Hannibal in that he could never hope to beat the Union militarily. All he could do was try to make the North bleed so badly that it would agree to a negotiated peace. And he failed in this because terrible as the casualties he inflicted upon the Union armies were, the North could always find replacements. Pinkerton did feed Little Mac the numbers he wanted. McClellan wanted to think that the Rebels had 200,000 to Lincoln would give him 300,000. But he should have known that an army of 150,000 to 200,000 was too hard to feed and equip. Especially with the South's primitive infrastructure.
Lee never really tried to follow up a victory, except the Seven Days. He should have destroyed the Army of the Potomac but he bungled it. He allowed John Pope to sneak back to Washington, he never tried to hit Burnside after he bled his army white at Fredericksburg. He waited too long to try something after Chancellorsville.
Odd thing, after the war, Lee was asked who the best general he faced. He said "McClellan, by all odds"
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Post by quagsjonny on Jun 16, 2020 11:57:56 GMT
Very good. He had early tactical success. I read a Rommel comparison, I agree with that. With no numbers or supply you finally can not win, regardless of strategy. Remember the Union was industrialized(ing), with the blockade, the South was literally dead in the water. No manufacturing of weapons capability.Kinda like Rommel in NA having no fuel, replacement parts and reinforcements. It's inevitable, regardless of the General.
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Post by Winter_King on Jun 16, 2020 14:22:53 GMT
Good but evidently like Rommel, he met his Patton. Frederick Douglass had this gem to say when Lee died. “We can scarcely take up a newspaper . . . that is not filled with nauseating flatteries” of Lee, from which “it would seem . . . that the soldier who kills the most men in battle, even in a bad cause, is the greatest Christian, and entitled to the highest place in heaven.” We have a tendency to put a general who kicked our asses on a pedestal. Lee, Rommel, Yamamoto (general, admiral, whatever). And to say their hearts weren't in it. You can't read about Lee without reading about his 'agonizing" decision to resign his commission. I've read how Rommel supported the Stauffenburg Plot but there's little evidence. He never got over his admiration for Hitler. Yamamoto's "Sleeping giant" quote is well known.
And you always read how Lee had a sixth sense, how he could read an opponent like a book. But he couldn't. His misread McClellan in Maryland. Hooker had him by the short ones until he stopped in the Wilderness. He had no clue what Hooker and Meade were doing during the Gettysburg Campaign. He completely misread Grant twice during the Spotysvania battle. And my cat could have read John Pope and Ambrose Burnside.
It's unclear if he supported but there is some reports that he knew about the plot and didn't do anything to help or hinder the conspirators. Manstein, the German general responsible for the myth of the clean Wehrmacht was also approached by the conspirators and he didn't do anything either. That being said, Hitler and his inner circle thought that Rommel was involved so they basically gave him the option to kill himself or be tried which would mean the death of Rommel and his family.
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