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Post by Vits on Jul 16, 2020 14:19:06 GMT
It's always been like this. The academy judges actors not only by the quality of their performances, but also by their public persona and off-screen behaviour. It's an open secret that Russell Crowe lost out to Denzel Washington in 2002, because of an incident when he threw a phone at a hotel employee. Oh, is that why so many other celebrities involved in controversies and even crimes have won? Is that why Russell lost out to such a bad performance? Yeah, no one remembers Alonzo Harris. No one quotes him or anything.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 16, 2020 14:43:31 GMT
...because it's just a matter of opinion. Despite what some people my want to believe, there's no "objective" way to critique film (or art general), so people end up putting too much weight on Oscar wins (a lot of them tend to be forgotten over the years). I mean really, what are movie critics supposed to do, wear lab coats, run expirements and devise a bunch of formulas for "objective" movie analysis?
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Post by SciFive on Jul 16, 2020 14:44:23 GMT
...because it's just a matter of opinion. Despite what some people my want to believe, there's no "objective" way to critique film (or art general), so people end up putting too much weight on Oscar wins (a lot of them tend to be forgotten over the years). I mean really, what are movie critics supposed to do, wear lab coats, run expirements and devise a bunch of formulas for "objective" movie analysis? This is so true!!!
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Post by Prime etc. on Jul 16, 2020 14:53:37 GMT
Film is a less subjective art form. You can tell when there is/isn't effort and creativity in the final product. Either you follow certain rules or you break them in a way that creates new rules. If you break the rules and it's clear that you're not aware, then you're not talented. It's still subjective. And they do not hide the political nature of the awards anymore so that even makes it more subjective.
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Post by SciFive on Jul 16, 2020 14:59:11 GMT
The Academy Awards do tend to be political. It’s hard not to get excited about movies that you like and actors you like when you hear about the Awards, but it’s a little depressing to realize that there are other things afloat in all this.
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Post by SciFive on Jul 16, 2020 15:01:47 GMT
The movie business knows that people get excited about award shows, too.
Again, it’s hard not to find out who won, at the very least, even if you don’t watch the shows (which I don’t).
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Post by mikef6 on Jul 16, 2020 20:40:51 GMT
It's always been like this. The academy judges actors not only by the quality of their performances, but also by their public persona and off-screen behaviour. It's an open secret that Russell Crowe lost out to Denzel Washington in 2002, because of an incident when he threw a phone at a hotel employee. No one ever let me in on the secret. I have always hated everything about "A Beautiful Mind" including Crowe's performance of fluttery hands and shuffling feet. What is no secret is that after two African-American actors won the top spots that year, Halle Berry was the other, there was an explosion of racially charged accusations that "politics" and "political correctness" were behind the wins. So many people think that people of color - or in some categories, women - could not possibly win legitimately (or get a job or a promotion) without "political" help. You know, if Russell Crowe had won that year over Denzel, I would have said, "He only won because he was white."
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Post by theravenking on Jul 17, 2020 9:44:26 GMT
It's always been like this. The academy judges actors not only by the quality of their performances, but also by their public persona and off-screen behaviour. It's an open secret that Russell Crowe lost out to Denzel Washington in 2002, because of an incident when he threw a phone at a hotel employee. No one ever let me in on the secret. I have always hated everything about "A Beautiful Mind" including Crowe's performance of fluttery hands and shuffling feet. What is no secret is that after two African-American actors won the top spots that year, Halle Berry was the other, there was an explosion of racially charged accusations that "politics" and "political correctness" were behind the wins. So many people think that people of color - or in some categories, women - could not possibly win legitimately (or get a job or a promotion) without "political" help. You know, if Russell Crowe had won that year over Denzel, I would have said, "He only won because he was white." I’m not saying it was the wrong decision. Personally I hated A Beautiful Mind, I thought it was a manipulative Oscar-bait movie with a borderline dumb plot.
But I recall that Crowe was the front runner for best lead actor that year, most people were expecting him to win, and afterwards it was assumed that he had ruined his own chances.
Denzel has always been well-liked and generally respected in Hollywood. He never had any scandals and is also regarded not only as a great actor but also as a decent human being.
How did Christoph Waltz win for Django Unchained? Was his performance really that great? Or is it just that he happened to be a really popular actor at that time?
We can pretend that an actor’s off-screen personality doesn’t matter. But let’s be real you have to be able to play the publicity game and lobby for awards or at least be generally popular and well-liked.
Mickey Rourke never really stood a chance to win best actor for The Wrestler, even if he hadn’t been going up against Sean Penn in Milk, simply because he is Mickey Rourke. People don’t like him, he’s too difficult, too weird, too rude, too intimidating.
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Post by Vits on Jul 17, 2020 9:53:18 GMT
But I recall that Crowe was the front runner for best lead actor that year, most people were expecting him to win, and afterwards it was assumed that he had ruined his own chances. Yes, Russell was the front runner, but he hadn't won in every single ceremony up to that point, so it wasn't that big of a shock. How did Christoph Waltz win for Django Unchained? Was his performance really that great? Yes. Same with INGLOURIOUS BASTERDS. I don't know what to tell you. Interesting that you chose D.U. because I remember that being a very unpredictable year for the Supporting Actor category, since no one had had a landslide in other televised awards like usual. Mickey Rourke never really stood a chance to win best actor for The Wrestler, even if he hadn’t been going up against Sean Penn in Milk, simply because he is Mickey Rourke. People don’t like him, he’s too difficult, too weird, too rude, too intimidating. Then why was he nominated in the first place?
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bd74
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Post by bd74 on Jul 18, 2020 3:13:08 GMT
It's always been like this. The academy judges actors not only by the quality of their performances, but also by their public persona and off-screen behaviour. It's an open secret that Russell Crowe lost out to Denzel Washington in 2002, because of an incident when he threw a phone at a hotel employee. I heard his loss had something to do with him having choked some man (a producer?) backstage at one of the award shows (the BAFTAs I think). Crowe had won all 4 precursors, but he didn't the win the Oscar, strangely. I find it very hard to believe that enough Academy members not only bothered to watch Training Day but felt that Washington's performance was worthy enough of the win. I don't really trust that the results are the true results. The late producer Julia Phillips wrote in one of her books that when she arrived at the theater and saw the seating arrangement of the 1974 Oscars, it gave her pause about Price Waterhouse.
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Post by SciFive on Jul 18, 2020 10:20:21 GMT
Training Day was the one movie (I think) where Denzel Washington played a bad guy.
I think they might have given him the Oscar for this reason (just like they sometimes give out Oscars to actresses who are beautiful in real life but who play ugly or plain women in their movie).
Grace Kelly got an Oscar this way - also Nicole Kidman and Charlize Theron.
Denzel Washington is my favorite actor so I think he could have won the Oscar a number of times for other movies. I just think this one was so unusual (with him as a bad guy) that it really got people’s attention at how well he could pretend to be bad.
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Post by Vits on Jul 18, 2020 10:25:21 GMT
I have not seen Training Day, but No no. It's OK. You can stop there. That's all we need to know. If you see that movie, by all means come back and tell us your analysis. even Sidney Poitier won an honorary Oscar if I recall. He already had one. Isn't that awarded to someone's entire career? Training Day was the one movie (I think) where Denzel Washington played a bad guy. I think they might have given him the Oscar for this reason (just like they sometimes give out Oscars to actresses who are beautiful in real life but who play ugly or plain women in their movie). Grace Kelly got an Oscar this way - also Nicole Kidman and Charlize Theron. No, those are all myths. Denzel had already won for GLORY. Henry Fonda and Tom Hanks didn't even get nominated for ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST and THE LADYKILLERS respectively. Grace, Nicole and Charlize were also nominated for other kinds of roles.
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Post by SciFive on Jul 18, 2020 10:50:11 GMT
I have not seen Training Day, but No no. It's OK. You can stop there. That's all we need to know. If you see that movie, by all means come back and tell us your analysis. even Sidney Poitier won an honorary Oscar if I recall. He already had one. Isn't that awarded to someone's entire career? Training Day was the one movie (I think) where Denzel Washington played a bad guy. I think they might have given him the Oscar for this reason (just like they sometimes give out Oscars to actresses who are beautiful in real life but who play ugly or plain women in their movie). Grace Kelly got an Oscar this way - also Nicole Kidman and Charlize Theron. No, those are all myths. Denzel had already won for GLORY. Henry Fonda and Tom Hanks didn't even get nominated for ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST and THE LADYKILLERS respectively. Grace, Nicole and Charlize were also nominated for other kinds of roles. Whoa!! Hold on - I didn’t say that it was the only Oscar he’d ever won. I said he deserved Oscars for other movies (which I think he did) but I think he got attention from some of the viewers for playing a bad guy. You can’t prove he didn’t get attention this way. I don’t think it’s an accident when beautiful actresses get Oscars for appearing ugly in movies. My opinions are just as good (or not good) as your opinions. There is no way to objectively analyze something as subjective as the Oscars, but we’re all entitled to our opinions. Don’t call my opinions myths and expect to use the scientific method to prove this.
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Post by Catman on Jul 18, 2020 10:50:37 GMT
Julia Roberts is the ultimate proof. The world would have been better served had she gone on to a career as a waitress in a greasy truck stop on Interstate 80 near the Iowa-Nebraska border.
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Post by SciFive on Jul 18, 2020 10:53:45 GMT
Julia Roberts is the ultimate proof. The world would have been better served had she gone on to a career as a waitress in a greasy truck stop on Interstate 80 near the Iowa-Nebraska border. At least she mostly quit making movies to raise her children.
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Post by Catman on Jul 18, 2020 10:55:42 GMT
Julia Roberts is the ultimate proof. The world would have been better served had she gone on to a career as a waitress in a greasy truck stop on Interstate 80 near the Iowa-Nebraska border. At least she mostly quit making movies to raise her children. Too little too late.
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Post by SciFive on Jul 18, 2020 10:59:42 GMT
Susan Sarandon wore little or no makeup in Dead Man Walking and cried when she saw how ugly she looked in the dailies while her significant other was directing the film. She won an Oscar.
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Post by Vits on Jul 18, 2020 11:34:03 GMT
Denzel already had a previous Oscar win. He was either the alternate choice to Crowe, a back to back would have been sensational hype, or it came down to Academy grandstanding for two major black wins. Sensational also. Did all the voters in the acting branch feel this way that year? Best Actress was a weak year too. Then why weren't the Supporting Actor/Actress winners black too? Surely there were roles in 2001 to choose from? Again, if you haven't seen 1 of the 2 performances when talking about who deserved it more, then you can't have much credibility. Look at me. I'm not discussing MONSTER'S BALL because I haven't seen it. At the time, it was a lot less common than today for a foreign film to be popular among the masses, making AMELIE an exception. It would've been sensational hype for it to win Best Foreign Film, but it didn't. Poitier’s was an Oscar for his contribution to film, although he wasn’t on the screen much throughout the latter part of the century, and for his dignity in industry representation. Why Poitier? Because he's considered to be one of the best actors of his generation. If you don't like him, that's fine, but you're a minority. These awards are only given when the person is old. As they get older, they get less job opportunities. Also, he's not the only person receive one, so it's not like he had some kind of preference over other more-deserving candidates. Whoa!! Hold on - I didn’t say that it was the only Oscar he’d ever won. I said he deserved Oscars for other movies (which I think he did) but I think he got attention from some of the viewers for playing a bad guy. You can’t prove he didn’t get attention this way. I don’t think it’s an accident when beautiful actresses get Oscars for appearing ugly in movies. My opinions are just as good (or not good) as your opinions. There is no way to objectively analyze something as subjective as the Oscars, but we’re all entitled to our opinions. Don’t call my opinions myths and expect to use the scientific method to prove this. Susan Sarandon wore little or no makeup in Dead Man Walking and cried when she saw how ugly she looked in the dailies while her significant other was directing the film. She won an Oscar. Sorry, I wasn't dismissing you. By "myth" I meant "Something people often say because they're heard it from someone else but can't actually be proved." You say that it's not objective or a science, yet you and others have reached this conclusion because you've found a pattern. What am I disagree with are the numbers themselves. The amount of actresses who have won for an unglamorous role isn't the majority. In fact, there are plenty of actresses with unglamorous roles who didn't even get a nomination, despite Oscar buzz (Emma Thompson in STRANGER THAN FICTION immediately comes to mind). And as I said before, the actresses that have won for that (including Susan Sarandon) have also won/gotten nominated when they've looked beautiful. Now, if the argument was that, without makeup or sexy outfits, the actresses focus more on grit and it complements the raw atmosphere of the movie... That would make sense. It would mean that the voters are judging realism and the emotional factor, as opposed to being shallow.
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Post by SciFive on Jul 18, 2020 15:24:36 GMT
VitsWell, I still think beautiful actresses playing ugly or unattractive women get some people’s attentions. Who would want to be filmed when they aren’t looking their best? It takes guts (and millions of dollars in paychecks).
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bd74
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Post by bd74 on Jul 18, 2020 18:26:10 GMT
Julia Roberts is the ultimate proof. The world would have been better served had she gone on to a career as a waitress in a greasy truck stop on Interstate 80 near the Iowa-Nebraska border. Huh? I feel she was great in Erin Brockovich and she deserved the win. I'd say it's her career-best performance. It had all the makings of an undeniable Oscar win: a great performance, a box office hit, and a great way to cap off her run as THE female movie star of the 90s.
Sandra Bullock's win on the other hand...
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