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Post by naterdawg on Feb 20, 2017 18:48:20 GMT
Jack Clayton's THE INNOCENTS has been described as an "ambiguous" ghost story where the spirits are essentially outgrowths of the governess' sexual frustration. I must admit, I always subscribed to that theory myself...until I watched the film again last night.
SPOILERS AHEAD!
This time, I paid close attention to all the details. Miss Giddens (great performance from Deborah Kerr) is portrayed as an older, somewhat sheltered spinster (she's the daughter of a minister, and though obviously in early early 40's, this is her first position), and she certainly seems to have more than a passing interest in "the Uncle" (Michael Redgrave). He, however, sees Miss Giddens as a means to an end and makes it abundantly clear he wants nothing whatsoever to do with the children except provide someone to care for and watch over them. So, Miss Giddens, as their governess, has complete authority once she arrives at Bly house to look after little Miles and Flora.
That's when the weirdness happens. Miss Giddens asks the driver to drop her off halfway to the house, so she can tour the sweeping grounds. While strolling about, she--as well as we--hear someone clearly calling "Flora! Flora!" It sounds very much like Miles' voice, who we don't meet until later. Miss Giddens asks Flora who was calling her, and she says no one. But that night, Flora states that Miles is coming home soon, a comment poo-pooed by the housekeeper, Mrs. Grose (Megs Jenkins). "Master Miles is away at school," she says, "and it's not holiday." Yet, within days, Miss Giddens receives notice that Miles is indeed coming home, having been expelled from school. How did Flora know this? Or was it just the jibber-jabber of an excitable child (Flora appears to be no more than 8 or 9 years old)?
When Miles (approximately 10) finally appears, Miss Giddens is surprised by his rather mature way. This is no mere boy, obviously. At one point, Miles and Flora engage Miss Giddens in a game of hide and seek. They hide in the attic, and as Miss Giddens rushes down the hallway searching for them, she sees a woman cross near an alcove--a woman dressed all in black.
In the attic, Miss Giddens finds a music box that plays the same melancholy tune Flora is always humming. She also finds a small portrait of a strong looking man. He's dressed nicely, his face is clean-shaven.
Later, Miss Giddens hides from the children downstairs. Behind her, in the garden, a face suddenly drifts out of the darkness toward the window (this is one of the cinema's greatest shock scenes, in my humble opinion). His hair is touseled, he's dressed in what appear to be old clothes, and he'd sporting a good case of five o'clock shadow. Miss Giddens is horrified, as are we. But she's not so horrified that she doesn't rush out to confront whoever was standing in the garden. Of course, he's no longer there. She then tells Mrs. Grose what she saw, and the older woman identifies the person as "Peter Quint," a stable hand who died in a tragic accident a year earlier.
Miss Giddens again sees the "woman in black," standing in the middle of the lake. It's later revealed by Mrs. Grose that Miss Jessel, who was the childrens' governess and Quint's lover, committed suicide upon his death by drowning herself in the estate's lake.
Every review I've ever read about The Innocents states that the ghosts are figments of Miss Gidden's sexually frustrated imagination. If this is the case, why would Miss Jessel's "ghost" appear to Miss Giddens in the lake--BEFORE Miss Giddens even knew of the suicide? Or the manner of suicide? And if Miss Giddens imagined the Quint specter after seeing his photograph, why did was the ghost dressed like a stable hand, complete with scruff? He didn't look that way in the picture, and Miss Giddens didn't know until later that he'd been the stable hand.
So, what do you think? Were the ghosts real? Or was the entire thing cooked up by Miss Giddens to somehow bring herself closer to the Uncle?
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Post by alexhurricanehiggins on Feb 20, 2017 19:36:11 GMT
I quite liked it 7/10 the less said about the Marlon Brando prequel The Nightcomers (1971) the better.
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Post by TheOriginalPinky on Feb 22, 2017 15:17:36 GMT
Jack Clayton's THE INNOCENTS has been described as an "ambiguous" ghost story where the spirits are essentially outgrowths of the governess' sexual frustration. I must admit, I always subscribed to that theory myself...until I watched the film again last night. SPOILERS AHEAD! This time, I paid close attention to all the details. Miss Giddens (great performance from Deborah Kerr) is portrayed as an older, somewhat sheltered spinster (she's the daughter of a minister, and though obviously in early early 40's, this is her first position), and she certainly seems to have more than a passing interest in "the Uncle" (Michael Redgrave). He, however, sees Miss Giddens as a means to an end and makes it abundantly clear he wants nothing whatsoever to do with the children except provide someone to care for and watch over them. So, Miss Giddens, as their governess, has complete authority once she arrives at Bly house to look after little Miles and Flora. That's when the weirdness happens. Miss Giddens asks the driver to drop her off halfway to the house, so she can tour the sweeping grounds. While strolling about, she--as well as we--hear someone clearly calling "Flora! Flora!" It sounds very much like Miles' voice, who we don't meet until later. Miss Giddens asks Flora who was calling her, and she says no one. But that night, Flora states that Miles is coming home soon, a comment poo-pooed by the housekeeper, Mrs. Grose (Megs Jenkins). "Master Miles is away at school," she says, "and it's not holiday." Yet, within days, Miss Giddens receives notice that Miles is indeed coming home, having been expelled from school. How did Flora know this? Or was it just the jibber-jabber of an excitable child (Flora appears to be no more than 8 or 9 years old)? When Miles (approximately 10) finally appears, Miss Giddens is surprised by his rather mature way. This is no mere boy, obviously. At one point, Miles and Flora engage Miss Giddens in a game of hide and seek. They hide in the attic, and as Miss Giddens rushes down the hallway searching for them, she sees a woman cross near an alcove--a woman dressed all in black. In the attic, Miss Giddens finds a music box that plays the same melancholy tune Flora is always humming. She also finds a small portrait of a strong looking man. He's dressed nicely, his face is clean-shaven. Later, Miss Giddens hides from the children downstairs. Behind her, in the garden, a face suddenly drifts out of the darkness toward the window (this is one of the cinema's greatest shock scenes, in my humble opinion). His hair is touseled, he's dressed in what appear to be old clothes, and he'd sporting a good case of five o'clock shadow. Miss Giddens is horrified, as are we. But she's not so horrified that she doesn't rush out to confront whoever was standing in the garden. Of course, he's no longer there. She then tells Mrs. Grose what she saw, and the older woman identifies the person as "Peter Quint," a stable hand who died in a tragic accident a year earlier. Miss Giddens again sees the "woman in black," standing in the middle of the lake. It's later revealed by Mrs. Grose that Miss Jessel, who was the childrens' governess and Quint's lover, committed suicide upon his death by drowning herself in the estate's lake. Every review I've ever read about The Innocents states that the ghosts are figments of Miss Gidden's sexually frustrated imagination. If this is the case, why would Miss Jessel's "ghost" appear to Miss Giddens in the lake--BEFORE Miss Giddens even knew of the suicide? Or the manner of suicide? And if Miss Giddens imagined the Quint specter after seeing his photograph, why did was the ghost dressed like a stable hand, complete with scruff? He didn't look that way in the picture, and Miss Giddens didn't know until later that he'd been the stable hand. So, what do you think? Were the ghosts real? Or was the entire thing cooked up by Miss Giddens to somehow bring herself closer to the Uncle? |
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Post by TheOriginalPinky on Feb 22, 2017 15:18:08 GMT
Jack Clayton's THE INNOCENTS has been described as an "ambiguous" ghost story where the spirits are essentially outgrowths of the governess' sexual frustration. I must admit, I always subscribed to that theory myself...until I watched the film again last night. SPOILERS AHEAD! This time, I paid close attention to all the details. Miss Giddens (great performance from Deborah Kerr) is portrayed as an older, somewhat sheltered spinster (she's the daughter of a minister, and though obviously in early early 40's, this is her first position), and she certainly seems to have more than a passing interest in "the Uncle" (Michael Redgrave). He, however, sees Miss Giddens as a means to an end and makes it abundantly clear he wants nothing whatsoever to do with the children except provide someone to care for and watch over them. So, Miss Giddens, as their governess, has complete authority once she arrives at Bly house to look after little Miles and Flora. That's when the weirdness happens. Miss Giddens asks the driver to drop her off halfway to the house, so she can tour the sweeping grounds. While strolling about, she--as well as we--hear someone clearly calling "Flora! Flora!" It sounds very much like Miles' voice, who we don't meet until later. Miss Giddens asks Flora who was calling her, and she says no one. But that night, Flora states that Miles is coming home soon, a comment poo-pooed by the housekeeper, Mrs. Grose (Megs Jenkins). "Master Miles is away at school," she says, "and it's not holiday." Yet, within days, Miss Giddens receives notice that Miles is indeed coming home, having been expelled from school. How did Flora know this? Or was it just the jibber-jabber of an excitable child (Flora appears to be no more than 8 or 9 years old)? When Miles (approximately 10) finally appears, Miss Giddens is surprised by his rather mature way. This is no mere boy, obviously. At one point, Miles and Flora engage Miss Giddens in a game of hide and seek. They hide in the attic, and as Miss Giddens rushes down the hallway searching for them, she sees a woman cross near an alcove--a woman dressed all in black. In the attic, Miss Giddens finds a music box that plays the same melancholy tune Flora is always humming. She also finds a small portrait of a strong looking man. He's dressed nicely, his face is clean-shaven. Later, Miss Giddens hides from the children downstairs. Behind her, in the garden, a face suddenly drifts out of the darkness toward the window (this is one of the cinema's greatest shock scenes, in my humble opinion). His hair is touseled, he's dressed in what appear to be old clothes, and he'd sporting a good case of five o'clock shadow. Miss Giddens is horrified, as are we. But she's not so horrified that she doesn't rush out to confront whoever was standing in the garden. Of course, he's no longer there. She then tells Mrs. Grose what she saw, and the older woman identifies the person as "Peter Quint," a stable hand who died in a tragic accident a year earlier. Miss Giddens again sees the "woman in black," standing in the middle of the lake. It's later revealed by Mrs. Grose that Miss Jessel, who was the childrens' governess and Quint's lover, committed suicide upon his death by drowning herself in the estate's lake. Every review I've ever read about The Innocents states that the ghosts are figments of Miss Gidden's sexually frustrated imagination. If this is the case, why would Miss Jessel's "ghost" appear to Miss Giddens in the lake--BEFORE Miss Giddens even knew of the suicide? Or the manner of suicide? And if Miss Giddens imagined the Quint specter after seeing his photograph, why did was the ghost dressed like a stable hand, complete with scruff? He didn't look that way in the picture, and Miss Giddens didn't know until later that he'd been the stable hand. So, what do you think? Were the ghosts real? Or was the entire thing cooked up by Miss Giddens to somehow bring herself closer to the Uncle? |
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Post by TheOriginalPinky on Feb 22, 2017 15:19:59 GMT
For some reason, my response didn't appear in what I quoted, so I'll try this way:
The ambiguity is the beauty of this film, and one in which ambiguity is managed beautifully. It could be her imagination and infatuation with the Uncle; or it could actually be a haunting. I learn toward the haunting side. Mrs. Grose, I believe, even heard and saw things. Wonderful film, and one of my favorite haunted house movies.
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Post by LaurenceBranagh on Feb 22, 2017 18:40:26 GMT
Fantastic film. 9/10
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johanwow
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Post by johanwow on Feb 22, 2017 20:32:13 GMT
Jack Clayton's THE INNOCENTS has been described as an "ambiguous" ghost story where the spirits are essentially outgrowths of the governess' sexual frustration. I must admit, I always subscribed to that theory myself...until I watched the film again last night. SPOILERS AHEAD! This time, I paid close attention to all the details. Miss Giddens (great performance from Deborah Kerr) is portrayed as an older, somewhat sheltered spinster (she's the daughter of a minister, and though obviously in early early 40's, this is her first position), and she certainly seems to have more than a passing interest in "the Uncle" (Michael Redgrave). He, however, sees Miss Giddens as a means to an end and makes it abundantly clear he wants nothing whatsoever to do with the children except provide someone to care for and watch over them. So, Miss Giddens, as their governess, has complete authority once she arrives at Bly house to look after little Miles and Flora. That's when the weirdness happens. Miss Giddens asks the driver to drop her off halfway to the house, so she can tour the sweeping grounds. While strolling about, she--as well as we--hear someone clearly calling "Flora! Flora!" It sounds very much like Miles' voice, who we don't meet until later. Miss Giddens asks Flora who was calling her, and she says no one. But that night, Flora states that Miles is coming home soon, a comment poo-pooed by the housekeeper, Mrs. Grose (Megs Jenkins). "Master Miles is away at school," she says, "and it's not holiday." Yet, within days, Miss Giddens receives notice that Miles is indeed coming home, having been expelled from school. How did Flora know this? Or was it just the jibber-jabber of an excitable child (Flora appears to be no more than 8 or 9 years old)? When Miles (approximately 10) finally appears, Miss Giddens is surprised by his rather mature way. This is no mere boy, obviously. At one point, Miles and Flora engage Miss Giddens in a game of hide and seek. They hide in the attic, and as Miss Giddens rushes down the hallway searching for them, she sees a woman cross near an alcove--a woman dressed all in black. In the attic, Miss Giddens finds a music box that plays the same melancholy tune Flora is always humming. She also finds a small portrait of a strong looking man. He's dressed nicely, his face is clean-shaven. Later, Miss Giddens hides from the children downstairs. Behind her, in the garden, a face suddenly drifts out of the darkness toward the window (this is one of the cinema's greatest shock scenes, in my humble opinion). His hair is touseled, he's dressed in what appear to be old clothes, and he'd sporting a good case of five o'clock shadow. Miss Giddens is horrified, as are we. But she's not so horrified that she doesn't rush out to confront whoever was standing in the garden. Of course, he's no longer there. She then tells Mrs. Grose what she saw, and the older woman identifies the person as "Peter Quint," a stable hand who died in a tragic accident a year earlier. Miss Giddens again sees the "woman in black," standing in the middle of the lake. It's later revealed by Mrs. Grose that Miss Jessel, who was the childrens' governess and Quint's lover, committed suicide upon his death by drowning herself in the estate's lake. Every review I've ever read about The Innocents states that the ghosts are figments of Miss Gidden's sexually frustrated imagination. If this is the case, why would Miss Jessel's "ghost" appear to Miss Giddens in the lake--BEFORE Miss Giddens even knew of the suicide? Or the manner of suicide? And if Miss Giddens imagined the Quint specter after seeing his photograph, why did was the ghost dressed like a stable hand, complete with scruff? He didn't look that way in the picture, and Miss Giddens didn't know until later that he'd been the stable hand. So, what do you think? Were the ghosts real? Or was the entire thing cooked up by Miss Giddens to somehow bring herself closer to the Uncle? I like your take on the film and that is the beauty of it. First time I saw it I could not make much of it but I was totally gripped by it's dark and haunting atmosphere. I really loved the apparitions creepy but subtle never boo in your face with a bang like conjuring, Insidious and most other paranormal horrors. Later on I paid more attention to dialogs, the behavior of the characters. Next to the apparitions the scene where Miss Giddens walks through the dark corridor with the candlestick and hearing those voices from the past, awesome. And than the whole poem Miles says during the dressing up was obviously an ode to Quint as if the latter had possessed him. But the movie has so many nice details which can be appreciated in different ways. I don't think there is one correct interpretation and that's one of the many reasons I love this movie. I'm one thinking the ghosts were real. I really don't buy the sexual frustration story. Maybe that would be true for the (awful) remake but I surely don't see it in the original. |
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Post by naterdawg on Feb 22, 2017 20:44:55 GMT
Oh, yes, that poem! Told so well by Martin Stephens, who was really a remarkable child actor. And I also think the ghosts were real. For one thing, we see Quint behind Miss Jessel at the window BEFORE she does, so if they're imaginary, why are we seeing them?
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johanwow
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Post by johanwow on Feb 22, 2017 20:53:56 GMT
Oh, yes, that poem! Told so well by Martin Stephens, who was really a remarkable child actor. And I also think the ghosts were real. For one thing, we see Quint behind Miss Jessel at the window BEFORE she does, so if they're imaginary, why are we seeing them? If you like his performance be sure to check out another great child performance from him in Village of the Damned (1960). Another great atmospheric horror IMO. |
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Post by naterdawg on Feb 22, 2017 21:18:15 GMT
Oh, yes, that poem! Told so well by Martin Stephens, who was really a remarkable child actor. And I also think the ghosts were real. For one thing, we see Quint behind Miss Jessel at the window BEFORE she does, so if they're imaginary, why are we seeing them? If you like his performance be sure to check out another great child performance from him in Village of the Damned (1960). Another great atmospheric horror IMO. Oh, yeah, one of my favorites! I've seen it many times and have the double-feature DVD (with Children of the Damned, not as good, IMO). Stephens was also in "The Witches," a Hammer film starring Joan Fontaine. He was older there, probably about 17. |
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Post by hitchcockthelegend on Oct 29, 2018 2:20:37 GMT
Superlative Pic
My review from 2009 >
Oh willow I die, oh willow I die...
Based on Henry James' novel, The Turn Of The Screw, The Innocents is a thoroughly absorbing chiller that pot boils with almost unbearably knowing glee as to what it's doing to the viewer. Deborah Kerr stars as Miss Giddens, the lady hired by Michael Redgrave to act as governess to his young niece and nephew. We find ourselves in Victorian England, out on some country estate at Bly Mansion, where the children are angelic and enchanting in equal measure. Yet there's an eeriness hanging over this place and it starts to seemingly play tricks on Miss Giddens' mind, she thinks she sees and hears things. It's only when she talks to housekeeper Mrs Grose (Megs Jenkins), that she starts to piece things together, but worryingly it's the children that appear to be at the root of the problems. Aren't they?
Kerr is fabulous here, carrying an elegant gait around with her, she does a fine line in borderline hysteria caused by something unknown bubbling away under the surface. Filmed on location at Sheffield Park and Gardens, and the Bluebell Railway in East Sussex, this lovely Gothic chiller does justice to its literate source. Being co-scripted by Truman Capote, William Archibald and John Mortimer, that's really not much of a surprise in truth though is it?! Choosing to play on the viewers imagination more than pandering to shocks, director Jack Clayton superbly creates a sort of itchy like sense of dread. He's fully aware that here in and around the Gothic abode, it's more often than not what you don't see – or think you see - that is more frightening.
Ace cinematographer Freddie Francis does a marvellous job with the photography, with deep focus and shadows the order of the day, and with Clayton sharp cutting and dallying with angles; and Georges Auric's sinister music floating around the estate like some spectral peeping tom, the atmosphere created is akin to claustrophobic foreboding. In many ways it's actually an uncomfortable watch, but for all the right reasons, the themes that rumble away are grim in texture, the question of malevolent evil or otherwise is a constant, and fittingly the finale offers up a shocking denouement that is nigh on impossible to shake off. With great performances from the child actors (Pamela Franklin/Martin Stephens) sealing the deal, The Innocents is one of the smartest and most effective chillers to ever have come out of Britain. 9/10 |
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Post by forca84 on Oct 29, 2018 23:51:42 GMT
*spoilers*
The scene when the little boy kisses the Governess and smirks like a grown man is one of the GD creepiest scenes ever. Great acting.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 30, 2018 18:24:49 GMT
Bingo. Too many fan "theories" often rely on having to change or ignore moments presented.
In this case, it could be both. The story is an allegory, but the ghosts in it are real.
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geralmar
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Post by geralmar on Nov 1, 2018 5:44:20 GMT
I decided the ghosts were real when Miss Giddens touches the teardrop on the desktop -- the only actual physical manifestation from a ghost in the movie. (Unless the "teardrop" was only a bead of moisture that forms naturally on a humid summer day. Damn.) 
I once read that Henry James intended the ghosts to be real. It was only when a friend pointed out their ambiguity that James realized the psychological angle to his story. (This all sounds apocryphal; James was too accomplished a novelist.) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 10:18:36 GMT
Great film. Period gothic ghost stories are probably my favourite genre of films, and books.
I saw the stage version of The Innocents at the theatre. The effects were first class, and the play was so well done, it was creepier than the film.
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