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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 8, 2023 7:03:07 GMT
For a good long duration of time, mutants are widely seen as a dangerous and unnatural set of people. Most parents don't know what to do with their child who has the mutant gene and they themselves have no idea how to cope with having it, so the school is designed to help them understand their powers and learn to control them. Charles believes they should use their abilities for good, and to help and tolerate others while his opposite Magneto wants them to become the superior species on Earth. Jean was lied to because of her raw and unpredictable abilities - it didn't work out in the end, but you could understand the motivation behind doing so at first to a certain extent. If memory serves, Blob didn't want to be peaceful to begin with, and he was rude, selfish, egotistical, and desired Jean Grey to be his girl toy. I have, did you know that in issue no. 5, where Doctor Doom debuts, Ben Grimm / The Thing becomes the legendary pirate Blackbeard? So then you admit the situation isn't as straight forward as you made it out to be. Which still doesn't change that he lies to parents to get to kids and indoctrinate them and we never see what happens to any of the kids once they graduate except Beast. Their only option seems to be staying at the Institute as X-Men.
He wasn't a perfect gentleman, but he wasn't hostile. Certainly not to the point where he deserved to be physically assaulted. IIRC Xavier even thinks back and admits they acted poorly.
Yes, he wants to stay in the past until a storm kills his Pirate buddies. Dr Doom sends them through time to gain some jewels he needs but they bring back Greek Fire instead.
If they don't complain then it's a non-issue. But that rarely happens.
Based on your feelings, I must ask why you like the X-Men as a media franchise with such negative views. It has been a while since I read the issue, but I don't recall Blob being anything close to a gentleman and rather was a bully that thought he was better than everyone else, and that he was attacked because he was getting very unruly. So, you can see that I have actually read the original stories. I have a whole collection with me a few feet away on my shelf, and all of them play into the exact premise that I have described. Since you appear as read into the material as I am, then tell me how I am wrong based on the first 10 issues of the comic book, if you may. But still you have come to admit that the situation is not straight-lined as you made it out to be.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 8, 2023 10:11:44 GMT
The racism analogy never totally worked for me in X-Men. They've got some great stories and on a very basic level, yes, racism is clearly wrong. But it's waaay more complicated when you take into account you've got people who can walk through walls, alter minds, or set you on fire by looking at you. Marvel tends to like to portray the government as always being wrong. The MCU is really bad at it, particularly lately. Even the X-Men movies had a bit of that, but to be completely honest, the Mutant Registration Act really isn't that unreasonable. These aren't just people with a different skin color, they are human weapons. Plus, I always thought it was strange mutants are targeted more vs. other super powered people with secret identities. It should also be noted that the X-Men played both sides of the fence: sometimes going against the government and sometimes acting like government enforcers. They'll go against the government's mutant registration act and they fought against the militant use of sentinels but they also allowed themselves to be the policing force of more radical mutants, thus why they're the ones who hunt down guys like Magneto or Sabertooth or Apocalypse. That's what I always loved about the X-Men. Yes there were politics involved but it never felt like they were trying to promote a particular political side.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 8, 2023 12:54:27 GMT
Which still doesn't change that he lies to parents to get to kids and indoctrinate them and we never see what happens to any of the kids once they graduate except Beast. Their only option seems to be staying at the Institute as X-Men.
He wasn't a perfect gentleman, but he wasn't hostile. Certainly not to the point where he deserved to be physically assaulted. IIRC Xavier even thinks back and admits they acted poorly.
Yes, he wants to stay in the past until a storm kills his Pirate buddies. Dr Doom sends them through time to gain some jewels he needs but they bring back Greek Fire instead.
If they don't complain then it's a non-issue. But that rarely happens.
Based on your feelings, I must ask why you like the X-Men as a media franchise with such negative views. It has been a while since I read the issue, but I don't recall Blob being anything close to a gentleman and rather was a bully that thought he was better than everyone else, and that he was attacked because he was getting very unruly. So, you can see that I have actually read the original stories. I have a whole collection with me a few feet away on my shelf, and all of them play into the exact premise that I have described. Since you appear as read into the material as I am, then tell me how I am wrong based on the first 10 issues of the comic book, if you may. But still you have come to admit that the situation is not straight-lined as you made it out to be. There have been plenty of periods in the comics where Xavier wasn't around or his ways of doing things were pointed out and condemned and the X-Men did things differently. That's new stuff we could see in future adaptations. At the very least have the X-Men argue with Xavier about the way they do things instead of always mindlessly agreeing with him on everything except for contrived moments in the old FoX-Men movies.
Which doesn't change that they brought him there, he turned them down and in turn they attacked him rather than just let him leave and try to mind wipe him later. He was no danger to them.
Those stories have Reed as the "Father" that everyone listens to and obeys with Sue "The Mom" having a nominal say in anything. That's not a real family unit.
The way "fans" have been acting, it usually is. Hypocrites.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 8, 2023 12:55:21 GMT
The racism analogy never totally worked for me in X-Men. They've got some great stories and on a very basic level, yes, racism is clearly wrong. But it's waaay more complicated when you take into account you've got people who can walk through walls, alter minds, or set you on fire by looking at you. Marvel tends to like to portray the government as always being wrong. The MCU is really bad at it, particularly lately. Even the X-Men movies had a bit of that, but to be completely honest, the Mutant Registration Act really isn't that unreasonable. These aren't just people with a different skin color, they are human weapons. Plus, I always thought it was strange mutants are targeted more vs. other super powered people with secret identities. It should also be noted that the X-Men played both sides of the fence: sometimes going against the government and sometimes acting like government enforcers. They'll go against the government's mutant registration act and they fought against the militant use of sentinels but they also allowed themselves to be the policing force of more radical mutants, thus why they're the ones who hunt down guys like Magneto or Sabertooth or Apocalypse. That's what I always loved about the X-Men. Yes there were politics involved but it never felt like they were trying to promote a particular political side.IE, you don't want to admit that you liked a politically slanted series so you say "Oh well it's not THAT political".
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 8, 2023 13:11:52 GMT
At this rate you can bet your ass theyll screw it up. It'll have that same cookie cutter cringe comedy as they all seem to have now. Give examples
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kratos
Sophomore
@kratos
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Post by kratos on Mar 8, 2023 15:01:42 GMT
At this rate you can bet your ass theyll screw it up. It'll have that same cookie cutter cringe comedy as they all seem to have now. Give examples Watch Thor 4 and Ant Man 3.
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 8, 2023 15:58:06 GMT
The racism analogy never totally worked for me in X-Men. They've got some great stories and on a very basic level, yes, racism is clearly wrong. But it's waaay more complicated when you take into account you've got people who can walk through walls, alter minds, or set you on fire by looking at you. Marvel tends to like to portray the government as always being wrong. The MCU is really bad at it, particularly lately. Even the X-Men movies had a bit of that, but to be completely honest, the Mutant Registration Act really isn't that unreasonable. These aren't just people with a different skin color, they are human weapons. Plus, I always thought it was strange mutants are targeted more vs. other super powered people with secret identities. Personally I though the original X Men movies did a fantastic job of balancing this. The militant mutants were always the bad guys alongside the more hateful humans. X3, as flawed as it was, had the X Men fighting to defend the people creating the cure. Is there a single good human in those movies (X-Men)? They are all either bad or afraid/portrayed as bigoted. There's definitely good and bad mutants, no disagreement there, but I can't think of a single memorable human in those movies. Kelly is a horrible person because he's pro-registration. Anyone associated with the registration act or cure is not shown in a positive light. Magneto is a terrible person and given so many second chances, it's absurd, though that problem with Magneto is something that exists in the comics too.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 8, 2023 18:22:45 GMT
Watch Thor 4 and Ant Man 3. Thor 4, a mediocre movie that actually did a really good job with Jane and Thor's plotline.
Ant-Man 3, a nice pseudo space-opera from one of the less popular corners of the MCU.
It would be better to compare MCU X-Men to something like Werewolf by Night or Moon Knight.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 8, 2023 18:23:47 GMT
Personally I though the original X Men movies did a fantastic job of balancing this. The militant mutants were always the bad guys alongside the more hateful humans. X3, as flawed as it was, had the X Men fighting to defend the people creating the cure. Is there a single good human in those movies (X-Men)? They are all either bad or afraid/portrayed as bigoted. There's definitely good and bad mutants, no disagreement there, but I can't think of a single memorable human in those movies. Kelly is a horrible person because he's pro-registration. Anyone associated with the registration act or cure is not shown in a positive light. Magneto is a terrible person and given so many second chances, it's absurd, though that problem with Magneto is something that exists in the comics too. There aren't. The President has a reasonable approach to everything that happens to him in X2 and then the X-Men break into the White House and basically threaten him like a bunch of terrorists to not do anything. And we're supposed to see this as a good thing.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 8, 2023 18:38:17 GMT
Personally I though the original X Men movies did a fantastic job of balancing this. The militant mutants were always the bad guys alongside the more hateful humans. X3, as flawed as it was, had the X Men fighting to defend the people creating the cure. Is there a single good human in those movies (X-Men)? They are all either bad or afraid/portrayed as bigoted. There's definitely good and bad mutants, no disagreement there, but I can't think of a single memorable human in those movies. Kelly is a horrible person because he's pro-registration. Anyone associated with the registration act or cure is not shown in a positive light. Magneto is a terrible person and given so many second chances, it's absurd, though that problem with Magneto is something that exists in the comics too. Moira?
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 8, 2023 19:00:49 GMT
Is there a single good human in those movies (X-Men)? They are all either bad or afraid/portrayed as bigoted. There's definitely good and bad mutants, no disagreement there, but I can't think of a single memorable human in those movies. Kelly is a horrible person because he's pro-registration. Anyone associated with the registration act or cure is not shown in a positive light. Magneto is a terrible person and given so many second chances, it's absurd, though that problem with Magneto is something that exists in the comics too. Moira?
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Post by kuatorises on Mar 8, 2023 19:01:48 GMT
Is there a single good human in those movies (X-Men)? They are all either bad or afraid/portrayed as bigoted. There's definitely good and bad mutants, no disagreement there, but I can't think of a single memorable human in those movies. Kelly is a horrible person because he's pro-registration. Anyone associated with the registration act or cure is not shown in a positive light. Magneto is a terrible person and given so many second chances, it's absurd, though that problem with Magneto is something that exists in the comics too. There aren't. The President has a reasonable approach to everything that happens to him in X2 and then the X-Men break into the White House and basically threaten him like a bunch of terrorists to not do anything. And we're supposed to see this as a good thing. Kelly proposes the registration act. Bad man.
Xavier and Company threaten the President. Heroes.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 8, 2023 20:51:31 GMT
Based on your feelings, I must ask why you like the X-Men as a media franchise with such negative views. It has been a while since I read the issue, but I don't recall Blob being anything close to a gentleman and rather was a bully that thought he was better than everyone else, and that he was attacked because he was getting very unruly. So, you can see that I have actually read the original stories. I have a whole collection with me a few feet away on my shelf, and all of them play into the exact premise that I have described. Since you appear as read into the material as I am, then tell me how I am wrong based on the first 10 issues of the comic book, if you may. But still you have come to admit that the situation is not straight-lined as you made it out to be. There have been plenty of periods in the comics where Xavier wasn't around or his ways of doing things were pointed out and condemned and the X-Men did things differently. That's new stuff we could see in future adaptations. At the very least have the X-Men argue with Xavier about the way they do things instead of always mindlessly agreeing with him on everything except for contrived moments in the old FoX-Men movies.
Which doesn't change that they brought him there, he turned them down and in turn they attacked him rather than just let him leave and try to mind wipe him later. He was no danger to them.
Those stories have Reed as the "Father" that everyone listens to and obeys with Sue "The Mom" having a nominal say in anything. That's not a real family unit.
The way "fans" have been acting, it usually is. Hypocrites.
As I had asked before - Based on your feelings, I must ask why you like the X-Men as a media franchise with such negative views. It has been a while since I read the issue, but I don't remember feeling sorry for Blob in the story and was surprised they even bothered with him in the first place. So, of those initial issues where and when do such instance occur to prove your argument correct?
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 9, 2023 0:17:56 GMT
There have been plenty of periods in the comics where Xavier wasn't around or his ways of doing things were pointed out and condemned and the X-Men did things differently. That's new stuff we could see in future adaptations. At the very least have the X-Men argue with Xavier about the way they do things instead of always mindlessly agreeing with him on everything except for contrived moments in the old FoX-Men movies.
Which doesn't change that they brought him there, he turned them down and in turn they attacked him rather than just let him leave and try to mind wipe him later. He was no danger to them.
Those stories have Reed as the "Father" that everyone listens to and obeys with Sue "The Mom" having a nominal say in anything. That's not a real family unit.
The way "fans" have been acting, it usually is. Hypocrites.
As I had asked before - Based on your feelings, I must ask why you like the X-Men as a media franchise with such negative views. It has been a while since I read the issue, but I don't remember feeling sorry for Blob in the story and was surprised they even bothered with him in the first place. So, of those initial issues where and when do such instance occur to prove your argument correct? I started reading it in the 80s, during that time Xavier was less in the books.
Well, that's you then.
The first issue alone does that.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 9, 2023 5:03:33 GMT
As I had asked before - Based on your feelings, I must ask why you like the X-Men as a media franchise with such negative views. It has been a while since I read the issue, but I don't remember feeling sorry for Blob in the story and was surprised they even bothered with him in the first place. So, of those initial issues where and when do such instance occur to prove your argument correct? I started reading it in the 80s, during that time Xavier was less in the books.
Well, that's you then.
The first issue alone does that.
But why do you like the X-Men as a property despite your negative feelings towards the very concept of it and one major character? As I have said, I haven't read the issue in a long time, but of what I recall I, as the reader, didn't think Blob to be anyone worth my sympathy. Where in particular in the first issue? Point to a page, or a panel specifically.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 9, 2023 13:39:07 GMT
I started reading it in the 80s, during that time Xavier was less in the books.
Well, that's you then.
The first issue alone does that.
But why do you like the X-Men as a property despite your negative feelings towards the very concept of it and one major character? As I have said, I haven't read the issue in a long time, but of what I recall I, as the reader, didn't think Blob to be anyone worth my sympathy. Where in particular in the first issue? Point to a page, or a panel specifically. Because that concept hasn't always stayed the same the entire run of the book, and because more and more AU takes (or semi parodies) helped me realize how messy aspects of the original premise were. Something even the comics themselves bothered noting. It's the same reason I realized how creepy the Superman/Lois/Clark "Triangle" really was.
It doesn't change that Xavier and the X-Men all acted like jackasses.
Well, issue one has him call the FF and expect them to drop everything they're doing to see him. Admittedly it's to fight Moleman's monster. In FF Annual 2, Page...8 I think when Sue says "Oh Reed, I've been a fool!" he replies "No, just a female".
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 9, 2023 21:11:36 GMT
But why do you like the X-Men as a property despite your negative feelings towards the very concept of it and one major character? As I have said, I haven't read the issue in a long time, but of what I recall I, as the reader, didn't think Blob to be anyone worth my sympathy. Where in particular in the first issue? Point to a page, or a panel specifically. Because that concept hasn't always stayed the same the entire run of the book, and because more and more AU takes (or semi parodies) helped me realize how messy aspects of the original premise were. Something even the comics themselves bothered noting. It's the same reason I realized how creepy the Superman/Lois/Clark "Triangle" really was.
It doesn't change that Xavier and the X-Men all acted like jackasses.
Well, issue one has him call the FF and expect them to drop everything they're doing to see him. Admittedly it's to fight Moleman's monster. In FF Annual 2, Page...8 I think when Sue says "Oh Reed, I've been a fool!" he replies "No, just a female".
So why do you like the X-Men? What made you a fan of the property? Again, I haven't read that story in a long time, my impression then might not be my impression today. If you admit in your first example that the reason as to stop a threat then why use it to support your argument? A very dated comment to make, but that doesn't negate that the premise was still of a team of heroes who made up a family unit.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 9, 2023 21:41:39 GMT
Because that concept hasn't always stayed the same the entire run of the book, and because more and more AU takes (or semi parodies) helped me realize how messy aspects of the original premise were. Something even the comics themselves bothered noting. It's the same reason I realized how creepy the Superman/Lois/Clark "Triangle" really was.
It doesn't change that Xavier and the X-Men all acted like jackasses.
Well, issue one has him call the FF and expect them to drop everything they're doing to see him. Admittedly it's to fight Moleman's monster. In FF Annual 2, Page...8 I think when Sue says "Oh Reed, I've been a fool!" he replies "No, just a female".
So why do you like the X-Men? What made you a fan of the property? Again, I haven't read that story in a long time, my impression then might not be my impression today. If you admit in your first example that the reason as to stop a threat then why use it to support your argument? A very dated comment to make, but that doesn't negate that the premise was still of a team of heroes who made up a family unit. The whole bigotry thing, but how there was nuance of how the stories would occasionally admit that the humans weren't 100% wrong.
A "Father Knows Best" family unit, which didn't become a more equal family till years later.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 10, 2023 0:19:28 GMT
So why do you like the X-Men? What made you a fan of the property? Again, I haven't read that story in a long time, my impression then might not be my impression today. If you admit in your first example that the reason as to stop a threat then why use it to support your argument? A very dated comment to make, but that doesn't negate that the premise was still of a team of heroes who made up a family unit. The whole bigotry thing, but how there was nuance of how the stories would occasionally admit that the humans weren't 100% wrong.
A "Father Knows Best" family unit, which didn't become a more equal family till years later.
So, you agree that the premise of the Fantastic Four has always been about a family unit of heroes? Doesn't sound like you were that committed to your coutner argument.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 10, 2023 16:23:53 GMT
The whole bigotry thing, but how there was nuance of how the stories would occasionally admit that the humans weren't 100% wrong.
A "Father Knows Best" family unit, which didn't become a more equal family till years later.
So, you agree that the premise of the Fantastic Four has always been about a family unit of heroes? Doesn't sound like you were that committed to your coutner argument. Not a proper family of equals, a "Father knows best" one where Reed was always calling the shots and everyone else was second to that (even Ben Grimm). It became a proper family unit years down the line, though. It's an example of the initial premise being changed and therefore being outdated to the point the comics themselves realized this.
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