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Post by President Ackbar™ on Mar 9, 2023 16:58:42 GMT
Not only have I never heard of her, but I'm also having difficulty trusting the judgement of a 20 something nobody over that of a master filmmaker like Scorcese. Although I find this whole affair rather silly I do wonder how someone with any interest in cinema hasn’t heard of Florence Pugh. She’s not exactly big box office but she has become a well regarded actress. Oh well, I remember when Taxi Driver and Family Plot opened in the same week and a reviewer appreciated the promising newcomer while praising the master filmmaker. I don't have the slightest idea who she is. What was she in?
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Post by Stammerhead on Mar 9, 2023 17:14:30 GMT
Although I find this whole affair rather silly I do wonder how someone with any interest in cinema hasn’t heard of Florence Pugh. She’s not exactly big box office but she has become a well regarded actress. Oh well, I remember when Taxi Driver and Family Plot opened in the same week and a reviewer appreciated the promising newcomer while praising the master filmmaker. I don't have the slightest idea who she is. What was she in? I’ve seen her in Midsommer, Little Women, Lady Macbeth and Black Widow. She’s very good in all of them but as I said up above, my opinion on Marvel leans more towards Marty’s (even though I enjoy their stuff) and he is a walking encyclopaedia when it comes to cinema.
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Post by Marv on Mar 9, 2023 17:30:51 GMT
Although I find this whole affair rather silly I do wonder how someone with any interest in cinema hasn’t heard of Florence Pugh. She’s not exactly big box office but she has become a well regarded actress. Oh well, I remember when Taxi Driver and Family Plot opened in the same week and a reviewer appreciated the promising newcomer while praising the master filmmaker. I don't have the slightest idea who she is. What was she in? She’s been in a decent amount of films the last 5 years. She’s usually one of the best things about the movies she’s in. I definitely recommend looking into her filmography.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Mar 9, 2023 17:48:50 GMT
I don't have the slightest idea who she is. What was she in? I’ve seen her in Midsommer, Little Women, Lady Macbeth and Black Widow. She’s very good in all of them but as I said up above, my opinion on Marvel leans more towards Marty’s (even though I enjoy their stuff) and he is a walking encyclopaedia when it comes to cinema. Oh, I haven't seen any of those So, I guess that explains it.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 9, 2023 19:18:54 GMT
She is very sexifull! But the McMarvel garbage filmes are for the Kinder, ja? Hans, my Kumpel, you always have such a way with words.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Mar 9, 2023 19:20:47 GMT
She is very sexifull! But the McMarvel garbage filmes are for the Kinder, ja? Hans, my Kumpel, you always have such a way with words.
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Post by Nalkarj on Mar 9, 2023 19:24:16 GMT
Hans, my Kumpel, you always have such a way with words. Ah, Germane-i-a, that mystical land across the sea where nothing is ever irrelevant to a subject under consideration.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 9, 2023 20:01:19 GMT
It's good that she doesn't want to limit herself on projects, but what was is that Scorsese said that was "garbage" and "foolish"? In a statement he said he has no ill will against Marvel movies, the people who make them, and those that enjoy them, he thinks that there are too many major studio releases of such a kind that every time a big release goes to the theaters it is expected to be the equivalent of an amusement park ride instead of something more dramatically complex and artistically more unique. The people driving the “theme park ride” genre and putting guys like Marty out of business are the people buying the movie tickets. It’s on them and them alone, Marvel is simply doing what they always done for decades. Good and fair point, if something like a Tár was released and made much more than the next Avengers installment, then the mentality regarding tentpole cinema in the industry would adjust to fit the needs of the consumer. Traditionally speaking, Hollywood has, and will continue to, require very easy to market entertainment to keep the business floating in the water, and spectacle driven cinema was one of the most effective ways to do so. In the 1950's when television really took off studios took advantage of the theater going experience by using different aspect ratios that at the time no television box set could retain in full and, of course, visual spectacle was then anticipated to be at its best in a motion picture whereas television was generally low-budget. And, it should be noted that Scorsese is 80 years old as of this writing with a birthday coming up in November, when he was a youth going to the cinema on the regular it was in the 1940's and 1950's, he turned 20 in 1960 and was working in the industry before the likes of Spielberg and Lucas defined the summer blockbuster with Jaws and Star Wars in the 1970's when he was in his 30's.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 9, 2023 20:18:43 GMT
I said no such thing, both Daredevil and Deadpool can certainly work in stories which are more tame in content. Why not? Film is, for the most part, subjective. The video you share is a person's opinion and analysis of the film. Then there shouldn't be the push there is for the MCU to go all R Rated, but there is.
It still shows how after all these years there are still so many who identify with Travis Bickle and think he's a modern day hero.
Same problem Goodfellas and Godfather had, those movies were supposed to be condemning the Gangster lifestyle but instead popularized it because the movies failed at their own premise. Which means those Filmmakers are hardly masters of their craft.
The reason for this push, and it does exist, is these fans cannot sit through the non-violent, non-action parts. I agree the level of violence the MCU should match the varying violence of comics’ level. And generally speaking, the comic genre itself cannot go too deep into an intellectual subsurface, the absurdity of the premise stymies it, plus the general unsophistication of the audience. Taxi Driver’s narrative has several themes overlaying each other. It’s a story of a young, Vietnam veteran and ex-Marine adrift in New York during its most degraded periods since the Depression who is going shooter-nuts after being rejected by Betsy, upper-class woman. One level is about the angry white man, it’s subtle, but there and assassination subplot is a McGuffin. If you notice, the blood in massacre sequence is a tomato soup color. This lessen the violence itself as if Travis rage is becoming anemic. His violence is banal with no heroics to it. Then we get the famous God’s eye view of the situation as Scorsese tracks his camera over then out of the building, over the carnage, and onto the street. There’s a child’s hop-scotch grid in wet street. It’s then we learn who the true villain, or villainess, is and it’s the city itself. Something complex like this is almost impossible in a comic genre movies due to it going over most of the audiences’ head. The comic narratives that lend themselves to this depth of narrative are crime fighters like Batman, Daredevil, etc, and attracts writers like Frank Miller. But crime stories are limited. Taxi Driver and The King of Comedy are very prescient films. Scorsese saw our present era coming 40 years ago. He’s a great storyteller.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 9, 2023 20:29:08 GMT
Hans, my Kumpel, you always have such a way with words. Germania, where the 🦠 come from.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 9, 2023 20:49:46 GMT
The video is an analysis of the Travis Bickle character and what they think makes him to be an engaging character for the viewer, and thus one of screen's most iconic anti-heroes. The Kino Corner is not encouraging people to be like Bickle, they're explaining why a person could probably relate to him up to a point and where he as a human being fails himself when he finds motivation. Based on the video and the way you describe things it doesn't sound like you really didn't watch it and just were going off of the title and thumbnail. If the guy bothers making a video analyzing him to this extent then it still means Scorsese failed at his basic premise of making Bickle be unlikable. The video explaining why people could relate to him (as we know many people did IRL) just further supports that.
This happened with that Peter Boyle movie "Joe" too, and with the Godfather and Goodfellas. For all this talk of "Real Cinema", these movies fail their own premise rather often.
You don't need a character to be likeable to relate to them, feel sympathy for them, or even to be amused by them. The Monster in Mary Shelley's novel Frankenstein terrorizes his creator and ends the lives of their loved ones in a brutal fashion for revenge, but one can still have sympathy for The Monster because he was cast out by his father, was rejected by society, and whatever love he found was immediately stripped away. The titular characters of Romeo and Juliet are youths who think with emotion first and logic secondary, and their love for one another ultimately leads to tragedy. Despite the foolishness of them, one can relate to them in their strive for rebelling against authority and stay in love and feel sorry that their love had to lead into such tragic circumstances. Heathcliff in Emily Bronte's novel Wuthering Heights is a very complicated character that fascinates the reader as he borders between hero and villain in the narrative. There are a times when you can certainly sympathize and relate to him but there are other instances where you dislike him and think he is terrible. Frank Castle / The Punisher is a very dark anti-hero who most of the other Marvel characters don't want anything to do with because of his methods and ideology, but the reader can sympathize and be engaged by his story because of his post-traumatic stress disorder from his time in service of his country, and that he lost everything he held dear in an instant and the law system completely failed him. Most of the cast of Family Guy are really horrible people when you get right down to it, Peter Griffin in particular is such a terrible human being that if he actually existed he would, depending on the state, be serving multiple life sentences or be on death row. However, no one really cares about the characters as individuals, it's not that kind of story being told it's a comedy with the intention of making you laugh, oftentimes with shock value.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 9, 2023 21:34:57 GMT
If the guy bothers making a video analyzing him to this extent then it still means Scorsese failed at his basic premise of making Bickle be unlikable. The video explaining why people could relate to him (as we know many people did IRL) just further supports that.
This happened with that Peter Boyle movie "Joe" too, and with the Godfather and Goodfellas. For all this talk of "Real Cinema", these movies fail their own premise rather often.
You don't need a character to be likeable to relate to them, feel sympathy for them, or even to be amused by them. The Monster in Mary Shelley's novel Frankenstein terrorizes his creator and ends the lives of their loved ones in a brutal fashion for revenge, but one can still have sympathy for The Monster because he was cast out by his father, was rejected by society, and whatever love he found was immediately stripped away. The titular characters of Romeo and Juliet are youths who think with emotion first and logic secondary, and their love for one another ultimately leads to tragedy. Despite the foolishness of them, one can relate to them in their strive for rebelling against authority and stay in love and feel sorry that their love had to lead into such tragic circumstances. Heathcliff in Emily Bronte's novel Wuthering Heights is a very complicated character that fascinates the reader as he borders between hero and villain in the narrative. There are a times when you can certainly sympathize and relate to him but there are other instances where you dislike him and think he is terrible. Frank Castle / The Punisher is a very dark anti-hero who most of the other Marvel characters don't want anything to do with because of his methods and ideology, but the reader can sympathize and be engaged by his story because of his post-traumatic stress disorder from his time in service of his country, and that he lost everything he held dear in an instant and the law system completely failed him. Most of the cast of Family Guy are really horrible people when you get right down to it, Peter Griffin in particular is such a terrible human being that if he actually existed he would, depending on the state, be serving multiple life sentences or be on death row. However, no one really cares about the characters as individuals, it's not that kind of story being told it's a comedy with the intention of making you laugh, oftentimes with shock value. And if you emulate them and feel inspired by them, then the filmmaker failed on an epic scale.
The Monster is never presented as an outright villain, in fact it's really more suggested Dr Frankenstein himself was the one truly at fault.
Romeo and Juliet being considered anything but the story of two idiots who barely knew each other is due to how the story has been commercialized over time, not by those who actually read it.
Never read Wuthering Heights. Can't say anything.
The Punisher isn't ever presented in a negative light, that's the problem.
I hate Family Guy.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 10, 2023 0:17:32 GMT
You don't need a character to be likeable to relate to them, feel sympathy for them, or even to be amused by them. The Monster in Mary Shelley's novel Frankenstein terrorizes his creator and ends the lives of their loved ones in a brutal fashion for revenge, but one can still have sympathy for The Monster because he was cast out by his father, was rejected by society, and whatever love he found was immediately stripped away. The titular characters of Romeo and Juliet are youths who think with emotion first and logic secondary, and their love for one another ultimately leads to tragedy. Despite the foolishness of them, one can relate to them in their strive for rebelling against authority and stay in love and feel sorry that their love had to lead into such tragic circumstances. Heathcliff in Emily Bronte's novel Wuthering Heights is a very complicated character that fascinates the reader as he borders between hero and villain in the narrative. There are a times when you can certainly sympathize and relate to him but there are other instances where you dislike him and think he is terrible. Frank Castle / The Punisher is a very dark anti-hero who most of the other Marvel characters don't want anything to do with because of his methods and ideology, but the reader can sympathize and be engaged by his story because of his post-traumatic stress disorder from his time in service of his country, and that he lost everything he held dear in an instant and the law system completely failed him. Most of the cast of Family Guy are really horrible people when you get right down to it, Peter Griffin in particular is such a terrible human being that if he actually existed he would, depending on the state, be serving multiple life sentences or be on death row. However, no one really cares about the characters as individuals, it's not that kind of story being told it's a comedy with the intention of making you laugh, oftentimes with shock value. And if you emulate them and feel inspired by them, then the filmmaker failed on an epic scale.
The Monster is never presented as an outright villain, in fact it's really more suggested Dr Frankenstein himself was the one truly at fault.
Romeo and Juliet being considered anything but the story of two idiots who barely knew each other is due to how the story has been commercialized over time, not by those who actually read it.
Never read Wuthering Heights. Can't say anything.
The Punisher isn't ever presented in a negative light, that's the problem.
I hate Family Guy.
Not necessarily, as stated before nine times out of 10 the people who claim to have taken influence from media already have a history of mental illness and were losing sanity before they even stumbled upon the creative work. Any work of art can have a potentially positive or negative impression on a person, the issue is really on the consumer, otherwise you might as well ban all forms of entertainment because of potential negative influence. The Monster is indeed the villain of the original Mary Shelley story, he sets out to destroy everything his creator Victor Frankenstein loves including brutally murdering his youngest sibling and his bride Elizabeth on the night of their wedding. He chases Victor to the ends of the Earth where they are discovered by a crew of explorers by ship in frozen waters. He is the consequence of Victor playing God, but Victor isn't portrayed as a terrible person, he flew too close to the Sun and has difficulty dealing with his grave error. That is certainly quite the statement to make, however, it doesn't dismiss my use of it as an example. Most stories with Castle don't portray him as some aspirational figure like a Captain America and his stories don't end traditionally on a positive note - He may stop the bad guys and save a life, but he isn't better as a person after the experience, and in the next issue he's still the same troubled person who continues to travel down a dark tunnel. You can hate the program as much as you like, but that's dismiss my example.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 10, 2023 16:22:14 GMT
And if you emulate them and feel inspired by them, then the filmmaker failed on an epic scale.
The Monster is never presented as an outright villain, in fact it's really more suggested Dr Frankenstein himself was the one truly at fault.
Romeo and Juliet being considered anything but the story of two idiots who barely knew each other is due to how the story has been commercialized over time, not by those who actually read it.
Never read Wuthering Heights. Can't say anything.
The Punisher isn't ever presented in a negative light, that's the problem.
I hate Family Guy.
Not necessarily, as stated before nine times out of 10 the people who claim to have taken influence from media already have a history of mental illness and were losing sanity before they even stumbled upon the creative work. Any work of art can have a potentially positive or negative impression on a person, the issue is really on the consumer, otherwise you might as well ban all forms of entertainment because of potential negative influence. The Monster is indeed the villain of the original Mary Shelley story, he sets out to destroy everything his creator Victor Frankenstein loves including brutally murdering his youngest sibling and his bride Elizabeth on the night of their wedding. He chases Victor to the ends of the Earth where they are discovered by a crew of explorers by ship in frozen waters. He is the consequence of Victor playing God, but Victor isn't portrayed as a terrible person, he flew too close to the Sun and has difficulty dealing with his grave error. That is certainly quite the statement to make, however, it doesn't dismiss my use of it as an example. Most stories with Castle don't portray him as some aspirational figure like a Captain America and his stories don't end traditionally on a positive note - He may stop the bad guys and save a life, but he isn't better as a person after the experience, and in the next issue he's still the same troubled person who continues to travel down a dark tunnel. You can hate the program as much as you like, but that's dismiss my example. That the movie still has the legacy of its antihero, which Scorsese never wanted him to be seen as such, shows how badly he failed. Same with Coppola and the Godfather movies. You don't see a majority of people talking about what nasty people Bickle and the Corleones were now do you? Contrast that with Breaking Bad or Falling Down, where the actual point got made properly.
This is the legacy of that novel, wherein we can debate who the true cause was. The Monster or the Doctor who rejected him and set him down his dark path. Not so much with Taxi Driver and Godfather, which failed to inject the needed ambiguity.
Well it's true, anyone who thinks it's some epic romance is fooling themselves and never read the darn thing.
Which doesn't change that the story makes him out to be in the right for what he's doing. Where are the stories where he ends up killing undercover Cops or ruining Sting operations?
I barely ever watched it and hated it when I did, so I can't offer any perspective on it.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 11, 2023 4:48:30 GMT
Not necessarily, as stated before nine times out of 10 the people who claim to have taken influence from media already have a history of mental illness and were losing sanity before they even stumbled upon the creative work. Any work of art can have a potentially positive or negative impression on a person, the issue is really on the consumer, otherwise you might as well ban all forms of entertainment because of potential negative influence. The Monster is indeed the villain of the original Mary Shelley story, he sets out to destroy everything his creator Victor Frankenstein loves including brutally murdering his youngest sibling and his bride Elizabeth on the night of their wedding. He chases Victor to the ends of the Earth where they are discovered by a crew of explorers by ship in frozen waters. He is the consequence of Victor playing God, but Victor isn't portrayed as a terrible person, he flew too close to the Sun and has difficulty dealing with his grave error. That is certainly quite the statement to make, however, it doesn't dismiss my use of it as an example. Most stories with Castle don't portray him as some aspirational figure like a Captain America and his stories don't end traditionally on a positive note - He may stop the bad guys and save a life, but he isn't better as a person after the experience, and in the next issue he's still the same troubled person who continues to travel down a dark tunnel. You can hate the program as much as you like, but that's dismiss my example. That the movie still has the legacy of its antihero, which Scorsese never wanted him to be seen as such, shows how badly he failed. Same with Coppola and the Godfather movies. You don't see a majority of people talking about what nasty people Bickle and the Corleones were now do you? Contrast that with Breaking Bad or Falling Down, where the actual point got made properly. This is the legacy of that novel, wherein we can debate who the true cause was. The Monster or the Doctor who rejected him and set him down his dark path. Not so much with Taxi Driver and Godfather, which failed to inject the needed ambiguity. Well it's true, anyone who thinks it's some epic romance is fooling themselves and never read the darn thing. Which doesn't change that the story makes him out to be in the right for what he's doing. Where are the stories where he ends up killing undercover Cops or ruining Sting operations? I barely ever watched it and hated it when I did, so I can't offer any perspective on it.
I would say you are failing your argument, sir. The only criminal you have been able to use as an example of people inspired by Taxi Driver's Travis Bickle had been mentally unstable for a number of years prior and was losing sanity well before he even saw the film. In court, he was dismissed for being insane, and professionals concluded he could have become fascinated with any other media. The video you shared isn't at all advocating people to be like the character and see him as an aspirational figure, it an analysis of how the story is presented and why one might be engaged by such a character despite not being a good person who was on a dark path. Most people who have seen Taxi Driver, The Godfather, and Goodfellas do not leave the experience wanting to be like those characters, their fascination is in regard to the effectiveness of the filmmaking. And as a matter of fact, I have seen many people talk about how nasty those characters were. Both Victor Frankenstein and his creation act as villains in the Mary Shelley novel, with The Monster being the larger threat of the two. Victor Frankenstein becomes too obsessive with his research and goes as far to rob graves and use the bodies for his experiments. He succeeds, but his mission was built on sin and after playing God he takes no responsibility for his creation and rejects them. The Monster is also rejected by society but also becomes smarter and seeks revenge on his creator, which results in much misery for Victor Frankenstein and his loved ones including the death of his bride. Victor is a very flawed person, but not genuinely evil, whereas The Monster becomes so for a portion of the novel. You can think of Romeo and Juliet as foolish youths, and still think of the story as an epic romance. Many stories where Castle interacts with other and more heroic Marvel characters don't depict him as being in the right with his actions, a lot of the time someone like a Daredevil, a Spider-Man, or a Captain America call his actions into question. As to your question, there are times when Castle will work with some of those in law enforcement and tries to avoid getting in the way of law enforcement or warns them away. In the Punisher: War Zone film he does end the life of an undercover cop and feels bad for it. Even so, it doesn't dismiss my example.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 11, 2023 15:48:40 GMT
That the movie still has the legacy of its antihero, which Scorsese never wanted him to be seen as such, shows how badly he failed. Same with Coppola and the Godfather movies. You don't see a majority of people talking about what nasty people Bickle and the Corleones were now do you? Contrast that with Breaking Bad or Falling Down, where the actual point got made properly. This is the legacy of that novel, wherein we can debate who the true cause was. The Monster or the Doctor who rejected him and set him down his dark path. Not so much with Taxi Driver and Godfather, which failed to inject the needed ambiguity. Well it's true, anyone who thinks it's some epic romance is fooling themselves and never read the darn thing. Which doesn't change that the story makes him out to be in the right for what he's doing. Where are the stories where he ends up killing undercover Cops or ruining Sting operations? I barely ever watched it and hated it when I did, so I can't offer any perspective on it.
I would say you are failing your argument, sir. The only criminal you have been able to use as an example of people inspired by Taxi Driver's Travis Bickle had been mentally unstable for a number of years prior and was losing sanity well before he even saw the film. In court, he was dismissed for being insane, and professionals concluded he could have become fascinated with any other media. The video you shared isn't at all advocating people to be like the character and see him as an aspirational figure, it an analysis of how the story is presented and why one might be engaged by such a character despite not being a good person who was on a dark path. Most people who have seen Taxi Driver, The Godfather, and Goodfellas do not leave the experience wanting to be like those characters, their fascination is in regard to the effectiveness of the filmmaking. And as a matter of fact, I have seen many people talk about how nasty those characters were. Both Victor Frankenstein and his creation act as villains in the Mary Shelley novel, with The Monster being the larger threat of the two. Victor Frankenstein becomes too obsessive with his research and goes as far to rob graves and use the bodies for his experiments. He succeeds, but his mission was built on sin and after playing God he takes no responsibility for his creation and rejects them. The Monster is also rejected by society but also becomes smarter and seeks revenge on his creator, which results in much misery for Victor Frankenstein and his loved ones including the death of his bride. Victor is a very flawed person, but not genuinely evil, whereas The Monster becomes so for a portion of the novel. You can think of Romeo and Juliet as foolish youths, and still think of the story as an epic romance. Many stories where Castle interacts with other and more heroic Marvel characters don't depict him as being in the right with his actions, a lot of the time someone like a Daredevil, a Spider-Man, or a Captain America call his actions into question. As to your question, there are times when Castle will work with some of those in law enforcement and tries to avoid getting in the way of law enforcement or warns them away. In the Punisher: War Zone film he does end the life of an undercover cop and feels bad for it. Even so, it doesn't dismiss my example. But it wasn't other media that made him do that, it was Taxi Driver. And that video's existence shows that there ARE people engaged by him to the point they think he's a heroic figure.
Real Gangsters abducted Coppola to take him to a Don who congratulated him for glamorizing their lifestyle. And you don't see anyone pointing out the misogyny in Godfather either.
These examples both play into the incompetence of these "Real" filmmakers.
So as you say, the Monster does what he does because of how he's rejected by everyone and everything and Frankenstein is largely responsible for that. It's debatable who the real villain is here.
The epic romance is what it's been commercialized into.
Yes, the ONE time that happens. If we weren't meant to see him as a properly heroic figure, that stuff wouldn't have taken over 30 years to happen.
Maybe, but I can't comment having not been very familiar with the material.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 12, 2023 0:50:32 GMT
I would say you are failing your argument, sir. The only criminal you have been able to use as an example of people inspired by Taxi Driver's Travis Bickle had been mentally unstable for a number of years prior and was losing sanity well before he even saw the film. In court, he was dismissed for being insane, and professionals concluded he could have become fascinated with any other media. The video you shared isn't at all advocating people to be like the character and see him as an aspirational figure, it an analysis of how the story is presented and why one might be engaged by such a character despite not being a good person who was on a dark path. Most people who have seen Taxi Driver, The Godfather, and Goodfellas do not leave the experience wanting to be like those characters, their fascination is in regard to the effectiveness of the filmmaking. And as a matter of fact, I have seen many people talk about how nasty those characters were. Both Victor Frankenstein and his creation act as villains in the Mary Shelley novel, with The Monster being the larger threat of the two. Victor Frankenstein becomes too obsessive with his research and goes as far to rob graves and use the bodies for his experiments. He succeeds, but his mission was built on sin and after playing God he takes no responsibility for his creation and rejects them. The Monster is also rejected by society but also becomes smarter and seeks revenge on his creator, which results in much misery for Victor Frankenstein and his loved ones including the death of his bride. Victor is a very flawed person, but not genuinely evil, whereas The Monster becomes so for a portion of the novel. You can think of Romeo and Juliet as foolish youths, and still think of the story as an epic romance. Many stories where Castle interacts with other and more heroic Marvel characters don't depict him as being in the right with his actions, a lot of the time someone like a Daredevil, a Spider-Man, or a Captain America call his actions into question. As to your question, there are times when Castle will work with some of those in law enforcement and tries to avoid getting in the way of law enforcement or warns them away. In the Punisher: War Zone film he does end the life of an undercover cop and feels bad for it. Even so, it doesn't dismiss my example. But it wasn't other media that made him do that, it was Taxi Driver. And that video's existence shows that there ARE people engaged by him to the point they think he's a heroic figure.
Real Gangsters abducted Coppola to take him to a Don who congratulated him for glamorizing their lifestyle. And you don't see anyone pointing out the misogyny in Godfather either.
These examples both play into the incompetence of these "Real" filmmakers.
So as you say, the Monster does what he does because of how he's rejected by everyone and everything and Frankenstein is largely responsible for that. It's debatable who the real villain is here.
The epic romance is what it's been commercialized into.
Yes, the ONE time that happens. If we weren't meant to see him as a properly heroic figure, that stuff wouldn't have taken over 30 years to happen.
Maybe, but I can't comment having not been very familiar with the material.
But again, Hinkley, Jr. was very mentally unstable, he had trouble telling the difference between fiction and reality and was even trying to follow the script beat for beat in real life. In fact, after going to Washington he was hoping the same bus would take him to Yale so that he could 'rescue' Jodie Foster, who was a student there at the time. I don't think if Scorsese, De Niro, or Schrader had made Travis Bickle even more of a bad apple it would have made any difference because Hinkley, Jr.'s sanity was on decline and had been for years. Meanwhile, the majority of people who have seen the film who find the character and De Niro's performance engaging have not gone on to have criminal records and are mentally healthy individuals. At what point in the video is the uploader telling everyone to aspire to be like the character? It honestly feels like you didn't watch the video for yourself and just went by the title and thumbnail. I don't think someone has seen The Offer yet on Paramount+. The Godfather received mixed reactions from mob groups, and some protested the film and didn't want it to have a single frame filmed. Your argument that the filmmakers are incompetent based on how positively their work, which focuses on criminals, is received is a fairly ridiculous one. As I have stated, being engaged or entertained by a character who is not of good and pure nature doesn't mean the consumer of the work is therefore bad themselves and it doesn't mean that the artists are incompetent at telling stories. Both Victor Frankenstein and his creation are villains in the story, The Monster is the bigger threat. My argument is not dismissed, because The Monster does do terrible things and you can still sympathize with him to an extent. As I have said, one can look at the story of Romeo and Juliet as an epic romance, and they can also think the titular characters are foolish youths, one belief does not prevent the other. Your feelings on the play does not dismiss my argument. So, you admit to being wrong, then? You asked when a time has there ever been such a thing has happened, and I provided an example which evidently proved you incorrect. Most stories with The Punisher do not make portray him as a noble and aspirational hero.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 12, 2023 3:33:11 GMT
But it wasn't other media that made him do that, it was Taxi Driver. And that video's existence shows that there ARE people engaged by him to the point they think he's a heroic figure.
Real Gangsters abducted Coppola to take him to a Don who congratulated him for glamorizing their lifestyle. And you don't see anyone pointing out the misogyny in Godfather either.
These examples both play into the incompetence of these "Real" filmmakers.
So as you say, the Monster does what he does because of how he's rejected by everyone and everything and Frankenstein is largely responsible for that. It's debatable who the real villain is here.
The epic romance is what it's been commercialized into.
Yes, the ONE time that happens. If we weren't meant to see him as a properly heroic figure, that stuff wouldn't have taken over 30 years to happen.
Maybe, but I can't comment having not been very familiar with the material.
But again, Hinkley, Jr. was very mentally unstable, he had trouble telling the difference between fiction and reality and was even trying to follow the script beat for beat in real life. In fact, after going to Washington he was hoping the same bus would take him to Yale so that he could 'rescue' Jodie Foster, who was a student there at the time. I don't think if Scorsese, De Niro, or Schrader had made Travis Bickle even more of a bad apple it would have made any difference because Hinkley, Jr.'s sanity was on decline and had been for years. Meanwhile, the majority of people who have seen the film who find the character and De Niro's performance engaging have not gone on to have criminal records and are mentally healthy individuals. At what point in the video is the uploader telling everyone to aspire to be like the character? It honestly feels like you didn't watch the video for yourself and just went by the title and thumbnail. I don't think someone has seen The Offer yet on Paramount+. The Godfather received mixed reactions from mob groups, and some protested the film and didn't want it to have a single frame filmed. Your argument that the filmmakers are incompetent based on how positively their work, which focuses on criminals, is received is a fairly ridiculous one. As I have stated, being engaged or entertained by a character who is not of good and pure nature doesn't mean the consumer of the work is therefore bad themselves and it doesn't mean that the artists are incompetent at telling stories. Both Victor Frankenstein and his creation are villains in the story, The Monster is the bigger threat. My argument is not dismissed, because The Monster does do terrible things and you can still sympathize with him to an extent. As I have said, one can look at the story of Romeo and Juliet as an epic romance, and they can also think the titular characters are foolish youths, one belief does not prevent the other. Your feelings on the play does not dismiss my argument. So, you admit to being wrong, then? You asked when a time has there ever been such a thing has happened, and I provided an example which evidently proved you incorrect. Most stories with The Punisher do not make portray him as a noble and aspirational hero. It still doesn't change that it was Taxi Driver that did this to him. The analysis afterwards can say whatever it wants about "Oh he was always nuts and anything could have set him off" but it doesn't change that it was Taxi Driver that did so and Travis Bickle in particular.
It doesn't need to explicitly say that, by siding with Bickle in any ways and saying things like how he can understand why people would idolize him, it merely shows how misguided Scorsese really was with the Bickle character.
If the filmmakers intended for us to be horrified by the Gangster Life or for us to think the violent Cabbie is not an admirable figure, and this is what happens instead, they are incompetent.
And like I said, if the Doctor hadn't rejected him he may not have done those things. This is a case where you can just as easily say Victor was the true villain all along.
Like I've said, anyone who reads it can easily see it's not an Epic Romance in any way. It's been marketed that way due to how over-commercialized its become by people deliberately misrepresenting it.
Nearly all of them do, and tell me why did it take so long for that story to happen?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 12, 2023 8:27:41 GMT
But again, Hinkley, Jr. was very mentally unstable, he had trouble telling the difference between fiction and reality and was even trying to follow the script beat for beat in real life. In fact, after going to Washington he was hoping the same bus would take him to Yale so that he could 'rescue' Jodie Foster, who was a student there at the time. I don't think if Scorsese, De Niro, or Schrader had made Travis Bickle even more of a bad apple it would have made any difference because Hinkley, Jr.'s sanity was on decline and had been for years. Meanwhile, the majority of people who have seen the film who find the character and De Niro's performance engaging have not gone on to have criminal records and are mentally healthy individuals. At what point in the video is the uploader telling everyone to aspire to be like the character? It honestly feels like you didn't watch the video for yourself and just went by the title and thumbnail. I don't think someone has seen The Offer yet on Paramount+. The Godfather received mixed reactions from mob groups, and some protested the film and didn't want it to have a single frame filmed. Your argument that the filmmakers are incompetent based on how positively their work, which focuses on criminals, is received is a fairly ridiculous one. As I have stated, being engaged or entertained by a character who is not of good and pure nature doesn't mean the consumer of the work is therefore bad themselves and it doesn't mean that the artists are incompetent at telling stories. Both Victor Frankenstein and his creation are villains in the story, The Monster is the bigger threat. My argument is not dismissed, because The Monster does do terrible things and you can still sympathize with him to an extent. As I have said, one can look at the story of Romeo and Juliet as an epic romance, and they can also think the titular characters are foolish youths, one belief does not prevent the other. Your feelings on the play does not dismiss my argument. So, you admit to being wrong, then? You asked when a time has there ever been such a thing has happened, and I provided an example which evidently proved you incorrect. Most stories with The Punisher do not make portray him as a noble and aspirational hero. It still doesn't change that it was Taxi Driver that did this to him. The analysis afterwards can say whatever it wants about "Oh he was always nuts and anything could have set him off" but it doesn't change that it was Taxi Driver that did so and Travis Bickle in particular.
It doesn't need to explicitly say that, by siding with Bickle in any ways and saying things like how he can understand why people would idolize him, it merely shows how misguided Scorsese really was with the Bickle character.
If the filmmakers intended for us to be horrified by the Gangster Life or for us to think the violent Cabbie is not an admirable figure, and this is what happens instead, they are incompetent.
And like I said, if the Doctor hadn't rejected him he may not have done those things. This is a case where you can just as easily say Victor was the true villain all along.
Like I've said, anyone who reads it can easily see it's not an Epic Romance in any way. It's been marketed that way due to how over-commercialized its become by people deliberately misrepresenting it.
Nearly all of them do, and tell me why did it take so long for that story to happen?
If your argument is that movies like a Taxi Driver, The Godfather, and Goodfellas are dangerous and a bad influence, and your only example is someone who was already mentally disturbed and was losing their sanity before even coming across them when everyone else has come out of viewing them fine without being motivation to commit crimes, then you have failed your premise and look incompetent in the process. People can take a liking to any fictional creation as they wish, even if it's a story's villain. At pop culture conventions you will find lots of people dressed up as The Joker, Harley Quinn, Wilson Fisk, The Green Goblin, Lex Luthor, and other villains, does that mean they are mentally ill as those characters are written as? You can think Victor Frankenstein was the true villain of the story, but that doesn't dismiss my point that people can still pity The Monster despite his horrible acts. The play has been retold for centuries and most adaptations tend to follow the original text to a T, if it is something of poor quality it wouldn't have as long an impact on history, but tell me how the story of Romeo and Juliet being of good or bad quality in anyway dismisses my argument? How many comic books of The Punisher have you read? I have a pretty decent sized collection and read stories from all different eras with the character including seen film and television iterations and video games, and even when he's presented as his most heroic neither does the writer or the artist present him as some sort of aspirational figure that everyone should look up to and admire like a Spider-Man or a Captain America.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 12, 2023 20:17:33 GMT
It still doesn't change that it was Taxi Driver that did this to him. The analysis afterwards can say whatever it wants about "Oh he was always nuts and anything could have set him off" but it doesn't change that it was Taxi Driver that did so and Travis Bickle in particular.
It doesn't need to explicitly say that, by siding with Bickle in any ways and saying things like how he can understand why people would idolize him, it merely shows how misguided Scorsese really was with the Bickle character.
If the filmmakers intended for us to be horrified by the Gangster Life or for us to think the violent Cabbie is not an admirable figure, and this is what happens instead, they are incompetent.
And like I said, if the Doctor hadn't rejected him he may not have done those things. This is a case where you can just as easily say Victor was the true villain all along.
Like I've said, anyone who reads it can easily see it's not an Epic Romance in any way. It's been marketed that way due to how over-commercialized its become by people deliberately misrepresenting it.
Nearly all of them do, and tell me why did it take so long for that story to happen?
If your argument is that movies like a Taxi Driver, The Godfather, and Goodfellas are dangerous and a bad influence, and your only example is someone who was already mentally disturbed and was losing their sanity before even coming across them when everyone else has come out of viewing them fine without being motivation to commit crimes, then you have failed your premise and look incompetent in the process. People can take a liking to any fictional creation as they wish, even if it's a story's villain. At pop culture conventions you will find lots of people dressed up as The Joker, Harley Quinn, Wilson Fisk, The Green Goblin, Lex Luthor, and other villains, does that mean they are mentally ill as those characters are written as? You can think Victor Frankenstein was the true villain of the story, but that doesn't dismiss my point that people can still pity The Monster despite his horrible acts. The play has been retold for centuries and most adaptations tend to follow the original text to a T, if it is something of poor quality it wouldn't have as long an impact on history, but tell me how the story of Romeo and Juliet being of good or bad quality in anyway dismisses my argument? How many comic books of The Punisher have you read? I have a pretty decent sized collection and read stories from all different eras with the character including seen film and television iterations and video games, and even when he's presented as his most heroic neither does the writer or the artist present him as some sort of aspirational figure that everyone should look up to and admire like a Spider-Man or a Captain America. I have a valid example of someone, even with all the stuff said afterwards about him to try and deflect the blame away from the movie. And then there's the actual gangsters who decided to model themselves on the Corleones because of how glamorous the Godfather made them.
Depends on what they do based on their fascination with them. I don't recall the Joker ever inspiring a real life assassination.
It means we can easily argue back and forth on who the real villain is.
It's a great example of how a lot of people have tampered with its reputation and willfully allowed to be seen as a romance and not the tragedy it is.
And they still make him be seen as necessary or more pragmatic than other Marvel heroes and they make sure he never does anything like kill undercover cops and FBI Agents or interfere with Sting operations. Even James Bond got to plots like that before Punisher did.
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