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Post by clusium on Sept 4, 2023 19:10:18 GMT
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Sept 5, 2023 9:37:23 GMT
Remember that God created evil.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Sept 5, 2023 16:20:23 GMT
Remember that God created evil. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7Evil doesn’t exist. It’s simply the absence of good.
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Post by captainbryce on Sept 5, 2023 21:36:24 GMT
Remember that God created evil. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7Evil doesn’t exist. It’s simply the absence of good. So the Bible is wrong then. Thank you for confirming this.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Sept 6, 2023 9:09:55 GMT
Evil doesn’t exist. It’s simply the absence of good. So the Bible is wrong then. Thank you for confirming this. The original Hebrew for evil there is “ra” which can also mean sorrow, calamity, disaster, afflictions, and adversity. Genesis teaches God created everything good. Evil is not a thing. Evil is merely a lack of good, in a similar way that theres no such “thing” as darkness, it’s simply just a lack of light.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 6, 2023 19:23:56 GMT
So the Bible is wrong then. Thank you for confirming this. The original Hebrew for evil there is “ra” which can also mean sorrow, calamity, disaster, afflictions, and adversity. Genesis teaches God created everything good. Evil is not a thing. Evil is merely a lack of good, in a similar way that theres no such “thing” as darkness, it’s simply just a lack of light. The Hebrew word indeed translates as “evil” (ra‘) in the King James Version of Isaiah 45:7 although apologists prefer to translate as you say. But it has two applications in the Bible. It can, yes, refer to harmful natural events, calamity, misfortune, adversity, affliction, or disaster. But it can be used in the sense of moral evil, such as wickedness and sin (Matthew 12:35; Judges 3:12; Proverbs 8:13; 3 John 1:11). Just sayin'. But let's go with the usual apologist's exegesis: amongst sorrows, calamities, disasters, afflictions, and adversities one might include childhood cancers, tidal waves and all forms of natural evil (which one notes, afflict the faithful and atheist alike). Are you suggesting we should say that all these misfortunes 'do not exist' and are merely, say the absence of health and calm seas? (No matter how apologists spin it the effect on those suffering is the same.) Or indeed that your deity did not supposedly create them when Isiah clearly says He did? The normal special pleading at this point is that God does these things ultimately 'for our benefit' and that, by definition, something done by the alleged deity must be good, or, more desperately, that we do not know why He does these things as the Almighty works in mysterious ways. Some try and explain the inconvenient admission in Isiah by asserting it was 'just for then' but nowhere does God say this and the passage sounds like an absolute statement.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 6, 2023 20:39:04 GMT
Remember that God created evil. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7Evil doesn’t exist. It’s simply the absence of good. Then 'good' doesn't exist either. Something that does not exist can't be the 'absence' of anything. If you're postulating that evil as a quality or 'thing' is non-existent then it follows that good (also a quality or thing), its opposite, is non-existent as well. So-called Christians can and will say the stupidest things to get their deity off the hook.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 6, 2023 21:29:53 GMT
Evil doesn’t exist. It’s simply the absence of good. Then 'good' doesn't exist either. Something that does not exist can't be the 'absence' of anything. If you're postulating that evil as a quality or 'thing' is non-existent then it follows that good (also a quality or thing), its opposite, is non-existent as well. So-called Christians can and will say the stupidest things to get their deity off the hook. I can't think of any reason, using the same logic, why one cannot say just as easily that good does not exist, and that it is the absence of evil. In fact it makes more sense since we are all apparently born guilty of sin and we live in an imperfect world.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Sept 6, 2023 22:13:20 GMT
Evil doesn’t exist. It’s simply the absence of good. Then 'good' doesn't exist either. Something that does not exist can't be the 'absence' of anything. If you're postulating that evil as a quality or 'thing' is non-existent then it follows that good (also a quality or thing), its opposite, is non-existent as well. So-called Christians can and will say the stupidest things to get their deity off the hook. Does cold exist?
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Post by amyghost on Sept 7, 2023 10:34:04 GMT
Then 'good' doesn't exist either. Something that does not exist can't be the 'absence' of anything. If you're postulating that evil as a quality or 'thing' is non-existent then it follows that good (also a quality or thing), its opposite, is non-existent as well. So-called Christians can and will say the stupidest things to get their deity off the hook. I can't think of any reason, using the same logic, why one cannot say just as easily that good does not exist, and that it is the absence of evil. In fact it makes more sense since we are all apparently born guilty of sin and we live in an imperfect world. Thank you. I hereby challenge Djorno to define how 'good' is a created, objectively real thing, without 'evil' being made of likewise nebulous stuff. And yes, he is barred from saying "Because God created it (good)" on pain of forever and hereafter forfeiting credibility as far anything else he writes on the subject.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 7, 2023 10:34:40 GMT
Then 'good' doesn't exist either. Something that does not exist can't be the 'absence' of anything. If you're postulating that evil as a quality or 'thing' is non-existent then it follows that good (also a quality or thing), its opposite, is non-existent as well. So-called Christians can and will say the stupidest things to get their deity off the hook. Does cold exist? You really can't refrain from posting inane non-answers, can you?
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Sept 7, 2023 10:56:29 GMT
You really can't refrain from posting inane non-answers, can you? Will you answer the question?
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Post by Rodney Farber on Sept 7, 2023 11:46:45 GMT
Then 'good' doesn't exist either. Something that does not exist can't be the 'absence' of anything. If you're postulating that evil as a quality or 'thing' is non-existent then it follows that good (also a quality or thing), its opposite, is non-existent as well. So-called Christians can and will say the stupidest things to get their deity off the hook. Does cold exist? Temperature, speed, and light have absolute zeros: zero degrees Kelvin, stopped, and the complete absence of light. Evil, OTOH, does not. This makes your response a non sequitur.
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Sept 7, 2023 13:40:20 GMT
Temperature, speed, and light have absolute zeros: zero degrees Kelvin, stopped, and the complete absence of light. Evil, OTOH, does not. This makes your response a non sequitur. Cold does not exist. It is not a thing. Cold is merely the absence of heat. Her response made about as much sense as saying “heat doesn’t exist either then”
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 7, 2023 20:30:35 GMT
Temperature, speed, and light have absolute zeros: zero degrees Kelvin, stopped, and the complete absence of light. Evil, OTOH, does not. This makes your response a non sequitur. Cold does not exist. It is not a thing. Cold is merely the absence of heat. Her response made about as much sense as saying “heat doesn’t exist either then” Cold is the presence of low temperature, I hope that helps. It certainly does scientists, Here is the Wiki article on that which you say does not exist: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold#:~:text=Cold%20is%20the%20presence%20of,an%20absolute%20thermodynamic%20temperature%20scale. One also notes that in Jeremiah 23:23-24 we learn that, supposedly “I am a God who is everywhere and not in one place only.". If God, who is allegedly nothing but good, really is everywhere as He claims then evil cannot be the absence of Him. And, you haven't agreed or confirmed whether childhood cancers (one 'misfortune' your God lays claim to) 'do not exist' since by this reckoning the illness is merely the absence of good health. Hey, presumably Faith does not exist either, being just the, er, absence of atheism? That is very reassuring...
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djorno
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Post by djorno on Sept 7, 2023 22:44:04 GMT
I can't think of any reason, using the same logic, why one cannot say just as easily that good does not exist, and that it is the absence of evil. In fact it makes more sense since we are all apparently born guilty of sin and we live in an imperfect world. Thank you. I hereby challenge Djorno to define how 'good' is a created, objectively real thing, without 'evil' being made of likewise nebulous stuff. And yes, he is barred from saying "Because God created it (good)" on pain of forever and hereafter forfeiting credibility as far anything else he writes on the subject. Evil is not a thing. Evil is when a conscience being corrupts something that exists in it’s natural, good state. It’s an intentional act of the will to misuse something not as it was intended to be used. A knife is not evil in and of itself. What is evil is when a person uses it to intentionally harm someone. Language is not evil. What is evil is when a person misuses language to lie for a selfish gain.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Sept 8, 2023 8:45:58 GMT
Evil doesn’t exist. It’s simply the absence of good. Then 'good' doesn't exist either. Something that does not exist can't be the 'absence' of anything. If you're postulating that evil as a quality or 'thing' is non-existent then it follows that good (also a quality or thing), its opposite, is non-existent as well. I'm not sure about this. Darkness could be said to be the absence of light for instance, but that doesn't mean light doesn't exist. However, I think djorno is wrong. Not helping an old woman across the street could be considered the absence of good, but kicking her in the shin would be more than that.
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Post by llanwydd on Sept 8, 2023 13:41:41 GMT
Then 'good' doesn't exist either. Something that does not exist can't be the 'absence' of anything. If you're postulating that evil as a quality or 'thing' is non-existent then it follows that good (also a quality or thing), its opposite, is non-existent as well. I'm not sure about this. Darkness could be said to be the absence of light for instance, but that doesn't mean light doesn't exist. However, I think djorno is wrong. Not helping an old woman across the street could be considered the absence of good, but kicking her in the shin would be more than that. I think that the words "good" and "evil" are better used as adjectives than as nouns. Describing good and evil as things is erroneous. Either way, they describe something intangible. "Good" simply means "better than something else". One needs something to measure it against. In all cases, you measure it against something substandard. If you dislike the substandard thing enough, you might call it "evil".
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 8, 2023 17:52:21 GMT
Thank you. I hereby challenge Djorno to define how 'good' is a created, objectively real thing, without 'evil' being made of likewise nebulous stuff. And yes, he is barred from saying "Because God created it (good)" on pain of forever and hereafter forfeiting credibility as far anything else he writes on the subject. Evil is not a thing. Evil is when a conscience being corrupts something that exists in it’s natural, good state. It’s an intentional act of the will to misuse something not as it was intended to be used. A knife is not evil in and of itself. What is evil is when a person uses it to intentionally harm someone. Language is not evil. What is evil is when a person misuses language to lie for a selfish gain. I am sure there are plenty of Bible verses that say that evil 'does not exist' and is 'not a thing'. Perhaps you can point to one? Just as a formality.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 9, 2023 2:45:59 GMT
Thank you. I hereby challenge Djorno to define how 'good' is a created, objectively real thing, without 'evil' being made of likewise nebulous stuff. And yes, he is barred from saying "Because God created it (good)" on pain of forever and hereafter forfeiting credibility as far anything else he writes on the subject. Evil is not a thing. Evil is when a conscience being corrupts something that exists in it’s natural, good state. It’s an intentional act of the will to misuse something not as it was intended to be used. A knife is not evil in and of itself. What is evil is when a person uses it to intentionally harm someone. Language is not evil. What is evil is when a person misuses language to lie for a selfish gain. And good is not a thing either, in the sense of a tangible object--despite your attempt to wordplay it into being such by saying God 'created' it. And also in spite of the fact that Isaiah says plainly and explicitly that evil is also a creation of that selfsame God.
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