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Post by clusium on Oct 17, 2023 20:34:23 GMT
Yeah, I don't how I got to be so lucky too. Guess I was just born under a lucky star. Is that seriously your answer? đ Because if it is, then I can just rest my case here about why your thinking is irrational. I'm being sardonic. Seriously though, as I mentioned earlier, I have studied several religions over the years, & it has never caused me to ever even think of leaving my own faith, regardless of how fascinating I found all of them. It made me even more firmer in my resolve to remain.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 18, 2023 11:24:27 GMT
Is that seriously your answer? đ Because if it is, then I can just rest my case here about why your thinking is irrational. I'm being sardonic. Seriously though, as I mentioned earlier, I have studied several religions over the years, & it has never caused me to ever even think of leaving my own faith, regardless of how fascinating I found all of them. It made me even more firmer in my resolve to remain. The same might be said of my favourite brand of cigarettes. But that does not mean that cigarettes are good for one.
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Post by clusium on Oct 18, 2023 14:40:07 GMT
I'm being sardonic. Seriously though, as I mentioned earlier, I have studied several religions over the years, & it has never caused me to ever even think of leaving my own faith, regardless of how fascinating I found all of them. It made me even more firmer in my resolve to remain. The same might be said of my favourite brand of cigarettes. But that does not mean that cigarettes are good for one.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Oct 18, 2023 15:29:45 GMT
I think whether people follow a religion because of investigation on their part or just happening to be born into it has little bearing on whether it's true or not.
Our cultural upbringing probably limits what we are capable of believing in. There's not much point a Christian trying to assess whether Shintoism is true if Shintoism has no emotional relevance to them.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Oct 18, 2023 22:25:01 GMT
Is that seriously your answer? đ Because if it is, then I can just rest my case here about why your thinking is irrational. I'm being sardonic. Seriously though, as I mentioned earlier, I have studied several religions over the years, & it has never caused me to ever even think of leaving my own faith, regardless of how fascinating I found all of them. It made me even more firmer in my resolve to remain. And i am sure there are people of other religions that have studied many religions, and came to the conclusion that the religion they where born into was the right one all along. It means nothing
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Post by clusium on Oct 18, 2023 23:06:13 GMT
I'm being sardonic. Seriously though, as I mentioned earlier, I have studied several religions over the years, & it has never caused me to ever even think of leaving my own faith, regardless of how fascinating I found all of them. It made me even more firmer in my resolve to remain. And i am sure there are people of other religions that have studied many religions, and came to the conclusion that the religion they where born into was the right one all along. It means nothing And I agree. I'm sure that they did. Just as there are other people who have studied a great many religions, & came to the conclusion that one of the others makes more logic & sense & thereby convert to that particular faith. No, it means that we all have strong faith & views in what are particular religions, politics, philosophies, ideologies, etc., & remain who & what we are.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Oct 18, 2023 23:58:36 GMT
I have studied several religions over the years, & it has never caused me to ever even think of leaving my own faith, regardless of how fascinating I found all of them. It made me even more firmer in my resolve to remain. Your firmness is confirmed by weekly reinforcement that you've made the right decision. JWs are reinforced by mandatory multiple "meetings" every week. If you kick the habit and go to a different (or none) religious service for a long period (say, 8 months), you'll find that your question your convictions.
When you go to church, how often do you read Psalms 137:9, or the story of the she bears that maul 42 children, or the fact that God supports slavery. And don't give me any bull about "But that's in the Old Testament" because it's in YOUR BIBLE. And in the new Testament, God killed Ananias and Sapphira just to put the fear of God into the remainder of the congregation.
But he loves you.
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Post by clusium on Oct 19, 2023 0:28:07 GMT
I have studied several religions over the years, & it has never caused me to ever even think of leaving my own faith, regardless of how fascinating I found all of them. It made me even more firmer in my resolve to remain. Your firmness is confirmed by weekly reinforcement that you've made the right decision. JWs are reinforced by mandatory multiple "meetings" every week. If you kick the habit and go to a different (or none) religious service for a long period (say, 8 months), you'll find that your question your convictions.
When you go to church, how often do you read Psalms 137:9, or the story of the she bears that maul 42 children, or the fact that God supports slavery. And don't give me any bull about "But that's in the Old Testament" because it's in YOUR BIBLE. And in the new Testament, God killed Ananias and Sapphira just to put the fear of God into the remainder of the congregation.
But he loves you.
And what makes you so certain that I had not ever, in my life questioned by convictions? Just because I have always attended weekly, Holy Mass, does not mean that I have not ever questioned things that the Church believes in or practices. I struggled with certain things & overcame them, via my study of world religions, & their varying beliefs & practices.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Oct 20, 2023 14:56:53 GMT
And what makes you so certain that I had not ever, in my life questioned by convictions? Just because I have always attended weekly, Holy Mass, ... We all question decisions that we make. I'm sure you questioned your religious conviction. However, if you continued to attend weekly Holy Mass, I question whether you went into your questioning with an open mind. Why not try some other religion for six months? And why go to Mass at all? It's just a man-made building. Just stay at home, read the bible, sing hymns and pray. When I went to church, every week we recited the Lords Prayer and the 23rd psalm. We also sang God loving hymns. Isn't God such a wonderful person? We never read Psalm 137:9 about dashing children against rocks. And of course, there's "Onward, Christian Soldiers". Well, if we were fighting other Christians, we wouldn't be singing that song, so we must be fighting some other religious group. Ah, religion, where might makes right. And what about Noah. Surely there must have been other humans that behaved as God wished. Nah, just kill them all. It makes a good story. And if you believe the Bible is "The Truth", let's look at, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". How do you know that? Nobody was around to witness earth's creation. Nobody was around to witness Adam forming out of dust. And if Adam came from dust, why not do the same for Eve. Why, because the rib story is something we all remember.
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Post by clusium on Oct 20, 2023 20:29:17 GMT
And what makes you so certain that I had not ever, in my life questioned by convictions? Just because I have always attended weekly, Holy Mass, ... We all question decisions that we make. I'm sure you questioned your religious conviction. However, if you continued to attend weekly Holy Mass, I question whether you went into your questioning with an open mind. Why not try some other religion for six months? And why go to Mass at all? It's just a man-made building. Just stay at home, read the bible, sing hymns and pray. When I went to church, every week we recited the Lords Prayer and the 23rd psalm. We also sang God loving hymns. Isn't God such a wonderful person? We never read Psalm 137:9 about dashing children against rocks. And of course, there's "Onward, Christian Soldiers". Well, if we were fighting other Christians, we wouldn't be singing that song, so we must be fighting some other religious group. Ah, religion, where might makes right. And what about Noah. Surely there must have been other humans that behaved as God wished. Nah, just kill them all. It makes a good story. And if you believe the Bible is "The Truth", let's look at, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". How do you know that? Nobody was around to witness earth's creation. Nobody was around to witness Adam forming out of dust. And if Adam came from dust, why not do the same for Eve. Why, because the rib story is something we all remember. It's not just a "man-made building," it is the House Of God, where I - & my fellow Catholics - receive the Sacraments. Besides that, if I stayed at home & read the Bible & sing hymns, etc., would you say that I am still questioning with an open mind? And yet, Psalm 137 is a very popular song to sing: Jewish folklore has it that Eve wasn't Adam's original wife. He was originally with a woman named Lilith was was Created the same as he was, but, she chose to go her own way, because she didn't want to lie underneath him during sex.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Oct 21, 2023 18:53:17 GMT
And why go to Mass at all? It's just a man-made building. Just stay at home, read the bible, sing hymns and pray. Well, Catholics believe the Mass allows communion with God that you won't get by sitting at home. Plus, you'd miss out on all the social and congregational aspects of religious life.
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Post by Admin on Oct 21, 2023 20:05:35 GMT
When you go to church, how often do you read Psalms 137:9 We never read Psalm 137:9 about dashing children against rocks. I wasn't aware that churches avoid Psalm 137:9. Why do you suppose they do that?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 22, 2023 14:44:16 GMT
When you go to church, how often do you read Psalms 137:9 We never read Psalm 137:9 about dashing children against rocks. I wasn't aware that churches avoid Psalm 137:9. Why do you suppose they do that? If they do, its probably because they are Cafeteria Christians.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Oct 27, 2023 13:54:09 GMT
It's not just a "man-made building," it is the House Of God, where I - & my fellow Catholics - receive the Sacraments. Besides that, if I stayed at home & read the Bible & sing hymns, etc., would you say that I am still questioning with an open mind? ... And yet, Psalm 137 is a very popular song to sing: What is the difference between a "man-made building" and a "House of God"? Is it the statue of Jesus made by a wood carver in Peoria? Is the stain-glass windows made by Corning? Is it the pews made by a cabinet maker in Jacksonville? Did God himself come down and bless the building? Or was it the Bishop's declaration that this is a House of God? Where did Bishop get the authority to call it the House of God? Do you believe that the Bishop has actually communicated with the Almighty, himself? The Bishop is no closer to God than you are (or I am). In my town, the local Catholic church outgrew itself so they built a new church down the block. They sold the old church to the Church of Christ Scientists. The Christian Scientists used it for their purposes for almost twenty years. They sold the building to a restaurant owner who now uses it as a family restaurant. The spire, pews, and the statue of Jesus are gone, but the stain-glass windows are still there. The food is acceptable. At what point did it stop becoming the House of God? And who made that decision? With your emphatic, "House of God" comment, as well as you admission that you ALWAYS attend weekly Holy Mass, you have ereased any doubt in mind. Your consideration of other religions was not sincere. It was blocked by Confirmation Bias: All you did was look for items that supported your beliefs rather than consider any other possibility. As for Psalm 137:9 Do you really find it acceptable that God wants you to take small children and bash them against rocks? Is this the kind and loving God you worship every Sunday?
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Post by clusium on Oct 27, 2023 16:40:25 GMT
It's not just a "man-made building," it is the House Of God, where I - & my fellow Catholics - receive the Sacraments. Besides that, if I stayed at home & read the Bible & sing hymns, etc., would you say that I am still questioning with an open mind? ... And yet, Psalm 137 is a very popular song to sing: What is the difference between a "man-made building" and a "House of God"? Is it the statue of Jesus made by a wood carver in Peoria? Is the stain-glass windows made by Corning? Is it the pews made by a cabinet maker in Jacksonville? Did God himself come down and bless the building? Or was it the Bishop's declaration that this is a House of God? Where did Bishop get the authority to call it the House of God? Do you believe that the Bishop has actually communicated with the Almighty, himself? The Bishop is no closer to God than you are (or I am). In my town, the local Catholic church outgrew itself so they built a new church down the block. They sold the old church to the Church of Christ Scientists. The Christian Scientists used it for their purposes for almost twenty years. They sold the building to a restaurant owner who now uses it as a family restaurant. The spire, pews, and the statue of Jesus are gone, but the stain-glass windows are still there. The food is acceptable. At what point did it stop becoming the House of God? And who made that decision? With your emphatic, "House of God" comment, as well as you admission that you ALWAYS attend weekly Holy Mass, you have ereased any doubt in mind. Your consideration of other religions was not sincere. It was blocked by Confirmation Bias: All you did was look for items that supported your beliefs rather than consider any other possibility. As for Psalm 137:9 Do you really find it acceptable that God wants you to take small children and bash them against rocks? Is this the kind and loving God you worship every Sunday? None of those. It Is the Living Presence Of Christ Himself in the Blessed Sacrament. That was Jeremiah who wrote that. He was expressing his anger & distress over the Babylonians for taking his people out of their own land & into captivity in Babylon. You can pretty much bet your bonny boots there was a lot of violence & bloodshed, when this happened, & among other things, the conquering Babylonians probably did that to the Israelites' own children (killed them by dashing them against the rocks). Sort of the way a Jewish person living in Europe back in the 1930s or 40s, would have felt towards the Nazis.
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Post by captainbryce on Oct 29, 2023 8:18:49 GMT
Depends on outlook I guess. Rather than seeing all religions but one's own as false, you could see them as less successful attempts at grasping a universal truth. This raises the questionâŠwhat is your measure of âsuccessâ in this regard? What objective test could you propose where we can gather empirical data to determine which religion is most successful at being representative of truth?
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Oct 30, 2023 9:17:08 GMT
Depends on outlook I guess. Rather than seeing all religions but one's own as false, you could see them as less successful attempts at grasping a universal truth. This raises the questionâŠwhat is your measure of âsuccessâ in this regard? What objective test could you propose where we can gather empirical data to determine which religion is most successful at being representative of truth? I don't think there is such an objective test. I think it comes down to what makes most sense to the person in question and that's going to be influenced by a lot of things, including the culture they were brought up in. In that respect there's no real difference to what the OP said - people generally stick with the religion they were brought up in. But if one sees other religions as valid attempts at grasping the truth, they'd probably be less judgmental and more accommodating of them than if they saw them simply as false. Acknowledging how much our own beliefs are shaped by culture and emotion rather than investigation helps in that respect too. So for me, a healthy (or at least, health ier) attitude to religion would be something like: 'I'm a Christian. Christianity make sense to me and gives my life some degree of fulfilment. I acknowledge my Christianity is strongly influenced by the culture I was brought up in. Other religions make less sense to me and don't do anything for me on an emotional level, but I acknowledge that is not true of others with a different cultural background to myself and we actually agree on many metaphysical concepts.'
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Post by Admin on Oct 31, 2023 3:43:47 GMT
This raises the questionâŠwhat is your measure of âsuccessâ in this regard? What objective test could you propose where we can gather empirical data to determine which religion is most successful at being representative of truth? I don't think there is such an objective test. I think it comes down to what makes most sense to the person in question and that's going to be influenced by a lot of things, including the culture they were brought up in. In that respect there's no real difference to what the OP said - people generally stick with the religion they were brought up in. But if one sees other religions as valid attempts at grasping the truth, they'd probably be less judgmental and more accommodating of them than if they saw them simply as false. Acknowledging how much our own beliefs are shaped by culture and emotion rather than investigation helps in that respect too. So for me, a healthy (or at least, health ier) attitude to religion would be something like: 'I'm a Christian. Christianity make sense to me and gives my life some degree of fulfilment. I acknowledge my Christianity is strongly influenced by the culture I was brought up in. Other religions make less sense to me and don't do anything for me on an emotional level, but I acknowledge that is not true of others with a different cultural background to myself and we actually agree on many metaphysical concepts.' Making sense doesn't necessarily correlate with emotional experience. js
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Post by captainbryce on Oct 31, 2023 8:30:38 GMT
This raises the questionâŠwhat is your measure of âsuccessâ in this regard? What objective test could you propose where we can gather empirical data to determine which religion is most successful at being representative of truth? I don't think there is such an objective test. I think it comes down to what makes most sense to the person in question and that's going to be influenced by a lot of things, including the culture they were brought up in. In that respect there's no real difference to what the OP said - people generally stick with the religion they were brought up in. But if one sees other religions as valid attempts at grasping the truth, they'd probably be less judgmental and more accommodating of them than if they saw them simply as false. Acknowledging how much our own beliefs are shaped by culture and emotion rather than investigation helps in that respect too. So for me, a healthy (or at least, health ier) attitude to religion would be something like: 'I'm a Christian. Christianity make sense to me and gives my life some degree of fulfilment. I acknowledge my Christianity is strongly influenced by the culture I was brought up in. Other religions make less sense to me and don't do anything for me on an emotional level, but I acknowledge that is not true of others with a different cultural background to myself and we actually agree on many metaphysical concepts.' Okay, I have to say that ^this is a very good answer. Not only is it objectively the only correct answer, but it also acknowledges a certain level of fallacious reasoning (appealing to emotion rather than logic), is intellectually honest, and doesnât reek of arrogance or righteous condemnation. But thatâs the problem with the answer! This is the type of answer that an otherwise rational person might give to an inquiry about that personâs belief system (even if they recognize it to be not rationally justified universally). But itâs not an answer that most theists would ever give, and it is very much an anti-Christian answer, which is why most Christians wouldnât answer this way. In fact, the only branch of Christianity (that I can think of) who would approve of this answer doctrinally would be Unitarian Universalists. And thatâs a branch that is largely disowned by mainstream Christianity. The reason I ask these types of questions (that I already know the correct answer to) is to see whether any theist will actually respond with that answer. Itâs kind of a gotcha question meant to demonstrate the absurdity of most claims in monotheistic religion, Christianity specifically. You happened to be among the few who ever passes this test. But, your answer still helps to demonstrate that specific claims of mainstream Christianity are not rational. And the fact that clusium actually âlikedâ your answer is ironic in the saddest sense.
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Post by captainbryce on Oct 31, 2023 8:33:17 GMT
Making sense doesn't necessarily correlate with emotional experience. Thatâs a good point too!
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