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Post by clusium on Mar 18, 2024 21:17:27 GMT
Nor will wishful thinking make them cease to exist either (see my previous post). Unfortunately the onus on proof is on those who make the claim they do. What do you have? The point I was making is that believing a god approves does not excuse the worst of behaviours, or the preparation of them. Would your God have been so prompt to persuade His followers against witchcraft trials, crusades and the inquisition as well. Perhaps the remainder then, who do, can be spoken to. Many would appreciate it. Good, just checking. But "Just as the Father Punished the serpent (aka the devil) for tempting His children, He Did not Excuse Adam & Eve from listening to him (the serpent) rather than obeying His Command (to not eat the fruit)." gives no indication it all should be thought as fiction. Any proof given, you & other atheists such as yourself, will not accept. God Allows for free will, but, Will Punish evil behaviour. Yes, I suppose many would appreciate us telling Wahhabi terrorists off. I was siting the story of Adam & Eve as examples.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 18, 2024 23:09:25 GMT
Any proof given, you & other atheists such as yourself, will not accept. Please do not tell me what I will, or will not, accept. Having said that, to be truly convincing any proof would be best from the Almighty Himself. Leg and arms growing back at Lourdes immediately after prayer for instance. Since, if He exists, God presumably knows what ought to prove most persuasive or convincing to many more than at present, without necessarily using coercion and that Lourdes trick would work for many to make the right choice, including me. Questioning why your deity does not just do it or similar was covered a lot of late. And, was noted then, I suspect an obvious reason why that will never happen. This is as may be, but that has never stopped the malign actions and influence of believers claiming a deity is on their side. Take those infamous witchcraft trials. The Bible says a witch is not to be allowed to live, Exodus 22:18. Why would God punish the zealous for following the clear command of scripture when further sanctioned (as it was) by the church? But is not the suffering and death caused to be condemned otherwise? That's OK: knowing that God will punish them is sure to, er, deter them all by itself. Of good fiction?
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Post by amyghost on Mar 19, 2024 0:12:51 GMT
? Cite a source for this 'story'. Not a YouTube video, please. A documented, verifiable, preferably print, source. Meanwhile, I suspect plain old mistakes are more prevalent than 'evil', though I'm aware some minds see evil under every overturned rock.
So now Obamacare is 'a story'? I'm pretty sure it's well documented, and anybody who actually knows financial math knows it's impossible to insure 300 million people if EVERYBODY only has to pay $40 to get it, somebody has to put in the real money and of course it's not the millionaires who think up these so called 'solutions'. And if everybody only had to pay $40 a month to GET insurance, there wouldn't be any need to fine people $900 per year for refusing it.
You came up with this shite to trounce The Affordable Care Act? Seriously? I'm one among many who could not afford healthcare today without it. And I work, Hard. If you don't like that, tough.
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Post by amyghost on Mar 19, 2024 0:14:15 GMT
It must be very convenient to live in the fantasy that tells you 'anytime things go wrong, just invoked the words Satan and evil, and that takes care of explanations'. No need to probe further, to see if any other causes that might be practically addressed and solved should come to light. The only thing this crap proves (and crap is precisely the correct designator for it) is the sheer intellectual laziness of too many Christians, coupled with the sort of apathy that will look for any excuse to shy away from working to fix real-world problems.
Socialism to fix real world problems? Now who's living a fantasy?
You, if you think the current laissez faire capitalist system is going to.
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Post by amyghost on Mar 19, 2024 0:19:19 GMT
Blaming real-world ills on an imaginary bad guy is as reductive and mentally lazy as laying at the doorstep of an equally imaginary sky fairy anything good which man brought about through his own efforts. And sorry--but going by those inconvenient scriptures that make up the Old Testament, one can pretty handily conclude that God, while he may be many things, is certainly not 'all Goodness'. www.metaphysicalexile.com/2022/01/god-is-not-good-all-time.htmlJust because you do not believe in God or the devil does not make Either imaginary. While admittedly, I would prefer if the devil and/or hell are nothing more than figments of our own imagination, & nothing more, wishful thinking will not make either go away. Anyhow, temptations from the evil spirits do not excuse the actions from peoples who do not choose to resist said temptations but give into them. Just as the Father Punished the serpent (aka the devil) for tempting His children, He Did not Excuse Adam & Eve from listening to him (the serpent) rather than obeying His Command (to not eat the fruit). If you can't provide concrete proofs of their tangible existence, then sorry, but both are imaginary. BTW, there's nothing in Genesis that says the serpent was the devil. As far as can be told from the story, the beastie was one of God's created creatures; hence the generational curse put on all its descendants, just the same as Adam and Eve's, another set of God's handiwork. The takeaway from this being that evil was inherent in God's perfect creation from the outset. Otherwise, wherefrom the 'evil' in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible#:~:text=No%20serpent%2C%20no%20animal%20of,Devil%2C%20in%20the%20Pentateuch.%22
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Post by clusium on Mar 19, 2024 2:25:56 GMT
Just because you do not believe in God or the devil does not make Either imaginary. While admittedly, I would prefer if the devil and/or hell are nothing more than figments of our own imagination, & nothing more, wishful thinking will not make either go away. Anyhow, temptations from the evil spirits do not excuse the actions from peoples who do not choose to resist said temptations but give into them. Just as the Father Punished the serpent (aka the devil) for tempting His children, He Did not Excuse Adam & Eve from listening to him (the serpent) rather than obeying His Command (to not eat the fruit). If you can't provide concrete proofs of their tangible existence, then sorry, but both are imaginary. BTW, there's nothing in Genesis that says the serpent was the devil. As far as can be told from the story, the beastie was one of God's created creatures; hence the generational curse put on all its descendants, just the same as Adam and Eve's, another set of God's handiwork. The takeaway from this being that evil was inherent in God's perfect creation from the outset. Otherwise, wherefrom the 'evil' in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible#:~:text=No%20serpent%2C%20no%20animal%20of,Devil%2C%20in%20the%20Pentateuch.%22 Nobody can see or feel gravity, yet, we know that it exists. So too, with Almighty God. The one thing all societies & cultures throughout the entire world have in common is religion or a belief in Higher Power. Genesis may have not identified the serpent as the devil, but, Revelation does. Why would a simple garden variety snake in Eden want 2 people to disobey the Heavenly Father? And why out of all the animals despised by man did it even have to be the snake to cause the first couple to disobey the Almighty??? Why not the pig, since it is so looked down in the Old Testament, aka the Torah???
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Post by clusium on Mar 19, 2024 2:27:57 GMT
Any proof given, you & other atheists such as yourself, will not accept. Please do not tell me what I will, or will not, accept. Having said that, to be truly convincing any proof would be best from the Almighty Himself. Leg and arms growing back at Lourdes immediately after prayer for instance. Since, if He exists, God presumably knows what ought to prove most persuasive or convincing to many more than at present, without necessarily using coercion and that Lourdes trick would work for many to make the right choice, including me. Questioning why your deity does not just do it or similar was covered a lot of late. And, was noted then, I suspect an obvious reason why that will never happen. This is as may be, but that has never stopped the malign actions and influence of believers claiming a deity is on their side. Take those infamous witchcraft trials. The Bible says a witch is not to be allowed to live, Exodus 22:18. Why would God punish the zealous for following the clear command of scripture when further sanctioned (as it was) by the church? But is not the suffering and death caused to be condemned otherwise? That's OK: knowing that God will punish them is sure to, er, deter them all by itself. Of good fiction? There have been plenty a miraculous cure at Lourdes France. Witches were feared & persecuted in all ancient societies. Not just in Ancient Israel, or in Medieval Europe & America.
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Post by amyghost on Mar 19, 2024 11:23:31 GMT
If you can't provide concrete proofs of their tangible existence, then sorry, but both are imaginary. BTW, there's nothing in Genesis that says the serpent was the devil. As far as can be told from the story, the beastie was one of God's created creatures; hence the generational curse put on all its descendants, just the same as Adam and Eve's, another set of God's handiwork. The takeaway from this being that evil was inherent in God's perfect creation from the outset. Otherwise, wherefrom the 'evil' in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpents_in_the_Bible#:~:text=No%20serpent%2C%20no%20animal%20of,Devil%2C%20in%20the%20Pentateuch.%22 Nobody can see or feel gravity, yet, we know that it exists. So too, with Almighty God. The one thing all societies & cultures throughout the entire world have in common is religion or a belief in Higher Power. Genesis may have not identified the serpent as the devil, but, Revelation does. Why would a simple garden variety snake in Eden want 2 people to disobey the Heavenly Father? And why out of all the animals despised by man did it even have to be the snake to cause the first couple to disobey the Almighty??? Why not the pig, since it is so looked down in the Old Testament, aka the Torah??? We know gravity exists because science has proven it. Science has yet to prove existence of a god, gods, devil, or devils. And we certainly do feel gravity--the fact that we're not typing our messages while bumping our noggins on the ceiling demonstrates that. Try climbing a staircase with heavy bags, for that matter, and you'll feel gravity right enough. As to the snake, who knows? Didn't God do a number of things--and according to believers, still does--for mysterious reasons that it's beyond our ken to comprehend? All I know is that the serpent is not identified in either Jewish or Christian religious texts as Satan or any of his minions. Possibly it was for aesthetic considerations; he thought the sinuous snake a more elegant sort of messenger than the clumsy pig.
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Post by amyghost on Mar 19, 2024 11:27:03 GMT
Please do not tell me what I will, or will not, accept. Having said that, to be truly convincing any proof would be best from the Almighty Himself. Leg and arms growing back at Lourdes immediately after prayer for instance. Since, if He exists, God presumably knows what ought to prove most persuasive or convincing to many more than at present, without necessarily using coercion and that Lourdes trick would work for many to make the right choice, including me. Questioning why your deity does not just do it or similar was covered a lot of late. And, was noted then, I suspect an obvious reason why that will never happen. This is as may be, but that has never stopped the malign actions and influence of believers claiming a deity is on their side. Take those infamous witchcraft trials. The Bible says a witch is not to be allowed to live, Exodus 22:18. Why would God punish the zealous for following the clear command of scripture when further sanctioned (as it was) by the church? But is not the suffering and death caused to be condemned otherwise? That's OK: knowing that God will punish them is sure to, er, deter them all by itself. Of good fiction? There have been plenty a miraculous cure at Lourdes France. Witches were feared & persecuted in all ancient societies. Not just in Ancient Israel, or in Medieval Europe & America. Which is a good index to the depth and prevalence of human ignorance taking malicious form, something I would tend to think disproves the existence of a benign Higher Power, rather than the opposite. As to Lourdes, considering the millions who've visited the place over the years, the cure number is infinitesimal by comparison. It sure didn't do Flannery O'Connor any good, for one noteworthy example.
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Post by clusium on Mar 19, 2024 12:23:05 GMT
Nobody can see or feel gravity, yet, we know that it exists. So too, with Almighty God. The one thing all societies & cultures throughout the entire world have in common is religion or a belief in Higher Power. Genesis may have not identified the serpent as the devil, but, Revelation does. Why would a simple garden variety snake in Eden want 2 people to disobey the Heavenly Father? And why out of all the animals despised by man did it even have to be the snake to cause the first couple to disobey the Almighty??? Why not the pig, since it is so looked down in the Old Testament, aka the Torah??? We know gravity exists because science has proven it. Science has yet to prove existence of a god, gods, devil, or devils. And we certainly do feel gravity--the fact that we're not typing our messages while bumping our noggins on the ceiling demonstrates that. Try climbing a staircase with heavy bags, for that matter, and you'll feel gravity right enough. As to the snake, who knows? Didn't God do a number of things--and according to believers, still does--for mysterious reasons that it's beyond our ken to comprehend? All I know is that the serpent is not identified in either Jewish or Christian religious texts as Satan or any of his minions. Possibly it was for aesthetic considerations; he thought the sinuous snake a more elegant sort of messenger than the clumsy pig. Science can only test or prove what exists within the boundaries of time & space. God Exists OUTSIDE of time & space, because God Created time & space. And while the Jewish texts do not identify the snake as Satan, the Christian texts do: Read Revelation chapter 12. As for the Jewish ones: There was a Jewish myth about an earlier wife of Adam (based on Genesis chapter 1, verse 27, & yet, in Genesis chapter 2, there was only man, so God Created woman from his rib), that later became the queen of demons. Judaism today, pretty much does not believe in a devil, however, the way the ancient Jews viewed the gods of their enemies - Baal Haded, etc. - was pretty much the same as how Christians view Satan, etc.
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Post by clusium on Mar 19, 2024 12:31:08 GMT
There have been plenty a miraculous cure at Lourdes France. Witches were feared & persecuted in all ancient societies. Not just in Ancient Israel, or in Medieval Europe & America. Which is a good index to the depth and prevalence of human ignorance taking malicious form, something I would tend to think disproves the existence of a benign Higher Power, rather than the opposite. As to Lourdes, considering the millions who've visited the place over the years, the cure number is infinitesimal by comparison. It sure didn't do Flannery O'Connor any good, for one noteworthy example. Maybe not Flannery O' Connor, but, certainly did Vittorio Micheli good. Vittorio Micheli
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 19, 2024 19:48:10 GMT
There have been plenty a miraculous cure at Lourdes France. Excellent, so then now: to ensure my immediate conversion to belief in your deity please link to one - one is enough - which involves the generation of new limbs there. Or failing that can you say why your gpd has a grudge against amputees, never vouchsafing the sort of cure it apparently offers to those with back problems, eyesight issues or those disabled? Did I tell you that I have suspicion why this might be? While factually true, that does not address my point.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 19, 2024 19:51:51 GMT
We know gravity exists because science has proven it. Science has yet to prove existence of a god, gods, devil, or devils. And we certainly do feel gravity--the fact that we're not typing our messages while bumping our noggins on the ceiling demonstrates that. Try climbing a staircase with heavy bags, for that matter, and you'll feel gravity right enough. As to the snake, who knows? Didn't God do a number of things--and according to believers, still does--for mysterious reasons that it's beyond our ken to comprehend? All I know is that the serpent is not identified in either Jewish or Christian religious texts as Satan or any of his minions. Possibly it was for aesthetic considerations; he thought the sinuous snake a more elegant sort of messenger than the clumsy pig. Science can only test or prove what exists within the boundaries of time & space. God Exists OUTSIDE of time & space, because God Created time & space. Easy to say, but hard to explain. Can you tell us how something without spatiality or temporality can be said to 'exist' at all, logically? How could one tell between a deity of this sort and, er, nothing actually? How could such a god contemplate making a decision without anything to generate thought with - or then take decisions at all, if there is no succession of actions and consequences available for it?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 19, 2024 19:59:11 GMT
Nobody can see or feel gravity, yet, we know that it exists. So too, with Almighty God.Do we? You assume too much. And why does the idea of god taken so many variants, away from the one you prefer? While this is true, it does not mean that the belief itself is true. To suggest so is an Argument from Popularity. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum Also, psychology has placed this widespread belief in a higher power likely in the need of human brain to seek out patterns in threatening or hostile environments to help survive, as well as for comfort when unknown forces can be supposedly appeased by certain rituals. The belief in the supernatural waxed strong when there was no other explanation for things, but has waned (in more educated societies at least) in recent times when science grew up and offered an alternative world view.
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Post by clusium on Mar 19, 2024 20:15:33 GMT
There have been plenty a miraculous cure at Lourdes France. Excellent, so then now: to ensure my immediate conversion to belief in your deity please link to one - one is enough - which involves the generation of new limbs there. Or failing that can you say why your gpd has a grudge against amputees, never vouchsafing the sort of cure it apparently offers to those with back problems, eyesight issues or those disabled? Did I tell you that I have suspicion why this might be? While factually true, that does not address my point. No brand new limbs, but, there again, Christ Never Promised any. In fact, the Wound that He Himself Endured, during His Passion were still Present on His Resurrected Body. However, here's a story that I already shared with amyghost, that I will share with you too. Vittorio Michelli
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 19, 2024 20:41:35 GMT
No brand new limbs, but, there again, Christ Never Promised any. That seems rather weak on the face of it - with a touch of special pleading too. And then we have such lines as: "...Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits- 3 who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, " Ps 103 Once again one wonders what God, despite this claim, has against the amputee. Or, given the likely effect a renewed limb would have on those atheistic waverers, why it never, ever happens. The resurrection only recorded years later by those with a message to push and not mentioned at all by contemporary writers, not even the Jewish ones? [Story shared] In respect of this, please see www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8271173/ where we read "Occurrences of spontaneous regression have been reported for many types of cancer." This does not however mean the supernatural must be the cause. The case you ought to be aware of in this context is not from Lourdes, but being the only respectable example is worth looking at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda Unfortunately it was a case investigated largely by the church at a time when standards of proof were not of the modern standard, while the Wikipedia article is apparently greatly based on just one source (by a committed Catholic). But it is a remarkable story - just not one seen ever again, especially in the days of more rigorous investigation.
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Post by clusium on Mar 19, 2024 23:28:53 GMT
No brand new limbs, but, there again, Christ Never Promised any. That seems rather weak on the face of it - with a touch of special pleading too. And then we have such lines as: "...Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits- 3 who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, " Ps 103 Once again one wonders what God, despite this claim, has against the amputee. Or, given the likely effect a renewed limb would have on those atheistic waverers, why it never, ever happens. The resurrection only recorded years later by those with a message to push and not mentioned at all by contemporary writers, not even the Jewish ones? [Story shared] In respect of this, please see www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8271173/ where we read "Occurrences of spontaneous regression have been reported for many types of cancer." This does not however mean the supernatural must be the cause. The case you ought to be aware of in this context is not from Lourdes, but being the only respectable example is worth looking at: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda Unfortunately it was a case investigated largely by the church at a time when standards of proof were not of the modern standard, while the Wikipedia article is apparently greatly based on just one source (by a committed Catholic). But it is a remarkable story - just not one seen ever again, especially in the days of more rigorous investigation. Since when is healing of disease & growing new limbs the same thing? Also, since you yourself found a case of a person growing a new limb, why would you want me to find one for you?
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Post by amyghost on Mar 20, 2024 11:32:50 GMT
We know gravity exists because science has proven it. Science has yet to prove existence of a god, gods, devil, or devils. And we certainly do feel gravity--the fact that we're not typing our messages while bumping our noggins on the ceiling demonstrates that. Try climbing a staircase with heavy bags, for that matter, and you'll feel gravity right enough. As to the snake, who knows? Didn't God do a number of things--and according to believers, still does--for mysterious reasons that it's beyond our ken to comprehend? All I know is that the serpent is not identified in either Jewish or Christian religious texts as Satan or any of his minions. Possibly it was for aesthetic considerations; he thought the sinuous snake a more elegant sort of messenger than the clumsy pig. Science can only test or prove what exists within the boundaries of time & space. God Exists OUTSIDE of time & space, because God Created time & space. And while the Jewish texts do not identify the snake as Satan, the Christian texts do: Read Revelation chapter 12. As for the Jewish ones: There was a Jewish myth about an earlier wife of Adam (based on Genesis chapter 1, verse 27, & yet, in Genesis chapter 2, there was only man, so God Created woman from his rib), that later became the queen of demons. Judaism today, pretty much does not believe in a devil, however, the way the ancient Jews viewed the gods of their enemies - Baal Haded, etc. - was pretty much the same as how Christians view Satan, etc. Revelations was written long after the Pentateuch and OT, and can't be quoted as any sort of 'proof' that the serpent was anything other than a God-created creature. As to God 'existing' outside of time and space: when one wishes to avoid the physical laws of the universe, one simply makes up a being who follows some other, unknown (hence 'unproven') set of laws. This is to be dismissed as nonsense; and if the believer truly wants to press for the existence of this other-existing God, it's on him to supply tangible evidences for it. No one has. Lilith exists as part of the Apocrypha, which good Christians are supposed to discount. What she was referred to in folklore doesn't count for anything in the Genesis story as we now know it.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Mar 20, 2024 13:15:12 GMT
Since when is healing of disease & growing new limbs the same thing? If one loses a leg due to the effects of disease then it would be. I note that God did not say in the previous verse ".. but I don't do missing legs"... But we also have " For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord. " Jeremiah 30:17 Are you saying that your deity could not grow limbs back if he wants to or places such a limitation on Himself? He manages it routinely with other creatures in His creation, after all. Because we were talking about modern cases, preferably at Lourdes. The truth is that a miraculous cure which would be beyond doubt, and be mostly easily verified, never happens. Have I told you I have a suspicion why this might be?
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Post by clusium on Mar 20, 2024 14:42:36 GMT
Since when is healing of disease & growing new limbs the same thing? If one loses a leg due to the effects of disease then it would be. I note that God did not say in the previous verse ".. but I don't do missing legs"... But we also have " For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord. " Jeremiah 30:17 Are you saying that your deity could not grow limbs back if he wants to or places such a limitation on Himself? He manages it routinely with other creatures in His creation, after all. Because we were talking about modern cases, preferably at Lourdes. The truth is that a miraculous cure which would be beyond doubt, and be mostly easily verified, never happens. Have I told you I have a suspicion why this might be? Yes, & God Does Restore our health to those seeking it. Here's another story, straight from Lourdes: Healing Declared A Miracle
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